Minutemen Immigrant Control

[Ancalagon the Black]

Originally posted by Sarge

Conversely, if the threat is so small that we can afford to let millions come into the country illegally every year, then is the war worth the costs?

Excellent question.

[Sarge]

Originally posted by Ancalagon the Black

Excellent question.

Isn't it?

[NoCalMike]

Originally posted by Sarge

Unfortunately, there have been more and more reports (not in the media of course) about middle easterners, and I'm not talking about tourists, shaving off their beards, changing their names to Gonzales and trying to make it across the border.

Hell, it's how I'd try to get in the country if I were an islamic nut.

This situation is my hang up with the "War on Terror". If there is a real war on terror, should we not seal the borders? Wouldn't tat make sense?

Conversely, if the threat is so small that we can afford to let millions come into the country illegally every year, then is the war worth the costs?

The question I have is that if all the minutemen do is report sightings to the border patrol, why not fill out an application and go to work for the border patrol, where they can actively be a part of the solution. Furthermore, why not follow the illegals to these big companies that hire them, and document/record/witness the hiring of the illegal aliens, and bring the big companies who hire them down. Instead of going after people looking for work, IE, the small fish, go after the corporations that stand to profit the most from the cheap labor.

[Sarge]

Originally posted by NoCalMike

The question I have is that if all the minutemen do is report sightings to the border patrol, why not fill out an application and go to work for the border patrol, where they can actively be a part of the solution. Furthermore, why not follow the illegals to these big companies that hire them, and document/record/witness the hiring of the illegal aliens, and bring the big companies who hire them down. Instead of going after people looking for work, IE, the small fish, go after the corporations that stand to profit the most from the cheap labor.

I would guess it would be because they are the ones that are breaking the law to begin with by coming across the border illegally, and bringing all the problems associated with illegal immigration

[NoCalMike]

Originally posted by Sarge

I would guess it would be because they are the ones that are breaking the law to begin with by coming across the border illegally, and bringing all the problems associated with illegal immigration

Ok I understand that, however our government and law enforcement obviously have no intention or desire to do anything more about the situation, so what exactly are the minutemen accomplishing by being down there? Since they don't actually have jurisdiction to do anything but watch, what else are they really getting done besides a vacation away from their families?

[36SKINS56]

I have been reading that theyve actually caught many illegals already...they may not be able to do much besides telling the border control, but the more eyes on the border the better...

[Sarge]

Originally posted by NoCalMike

Ok I understand that, however our government and law enforcement obviously have no intention or desire to do anything more about the situation, so what exactly are the minutemen accomplishing by being down there? Since they don't actually have jurisdiction to do anything but watch, what else are they really getting done besides a vacation away from their families?

I beleive what they are doing is calling the Border Patrol when they spot illegals entering the country. In essence, another set of eyes for an undermanned Border Patrol

[NoCalMike]

Originally posted by Sarge

I beleive what they are doing is calling the Border Patrol when they spot illegals entering the country. In essence, another set of eyes for an undermanned Border Patrol

Well additional sets of eyes are good, assuming the border patrol is just sitting around not doing anything in the mean time, just waiting for a minuteman to call them up.

[36SKINS56]

well this certain area is totally screwed up...legislative members have actually impeded the construction of more towers for the border control members to man...im telling you...check out the website...its pretty bad...the minutemen extra eyes are quite helpful

[Thiebear]

I never understood why the MEDIA was overplaying this calling them VigilAnte's when they were obviously Neighborhood Watch.

But that doenst sound very sexy does it...

[gbear]

According to one interview on the radio, they are making life harder for theborder patrol. All of the sensors keep getting tripped making the border patrol go out to see who tripped the sensors only to find a minuteman. The border patrol has asked them to go home and stop interfering with them doing their job. Now I know it may appear like they aren't doing their job, but are we making things better or worse?

[Thiebear]

Originally posted by gbear

According to one interview on the radio, they are making life harder for theborder patrol. All of the sensors keep getting tripped making the border patrol go out to see who tripped the sensors only to find a minuteman. The border patrol has asked them to go home and stop interfering with them doing their job. Now I know it may appear like they aren't doing their job, but are we making things better or worse?

From what i heard the spot they are at 400 come through a day.

So if the Border patrol are there more often I don't have a problem with it... because it was a sucking chest wound that needs to be blocked anyway.

[gbear]

Ah, but when you send an undermanned border patrol to a spot 3 times for every one you stop...do you wonder about what other holes you've just created along the border? Yeha, you might slow the influx over a two mile stretch...woohoo...now about the rest of the border you just made easier to cross? Think big picture.

Of course I'm still not convinced about the practicial side of slowing odown the immigaration. As has been pointed out above, we thrive because of it. Personally, I think more should be allowed so we can regulate. As it stands now, the guy sneaking across doesn't stand out from the thousands of others sneaking across. Make it possible to enter on a work visa for certain jobs, and you at least get a chance to know who is coming in. Then those sneaking in stand out.

Again, think big picture. What is your goal? Is it to stop terrorists? Is it to stop migrant workers? Decide a goal and set up a means of reaching it. Don't allow scope creap.

[Destino]

Originally posted by Sarge

I would guess it would be because they are the ones that are breaking the law to begin with by coming across the border illegally, and bringing all the problems associated with illegal immigration

It's a great guess. One that's lead to absolute failure for several years now. Slap the companies that hire them and provide incentive on the wrist when caught.....punish the poor people looking for work. Great plan!

I am a big supporter of securing the border and ending this illegal immgration problem. But I'm way past the point of humoring idiocy any longer. It's painfully obvious that congress and the leadership of this country does not want to end this problem. There is a lot of money being made off the backs of illegal workers. But no one wants to look at that.

Until we start looking at the people who are allowing this to go on, and the people making money off it, the problem will continue no matter how many people walk around with cell phones.

[DjTj]

Originally posted by Sarge

Unfortunately, there have been more and more reports (not in the media of course) about middle easterners, and I'm not talking about tourists, shaving off their beards, changing their names to Gonzales and trying to make it across the border.

Hell, it's how I'd try to get in the country if I were an islamic nut.

This situation is my hang up with the "War on Terror". If there is a real war on terror, should we not seal the borders? Wouldn't tat make sense?

Conversely, if the threat is so small that we can afford to let millions come into the country illegally every year, then is the war worth the costs?

Why would you need to change your name to Gonzales? Doesn't the Mexican guy get turned away just like the Saudi guy if he's caught at the border? I guess if you get stopped, you're not going to tell anyone your name is Osama Bin Laden, but even the Mexicans probably aren't telling anyone their real name.

If I were a trained terrorist, I definitely would not risk going across the desert. I'd get a fake passport in a foreign country, get a tourist visa or student visa, and I'd fly in on an airplane. Surprisingly, this is how all the 9/11 hijackers got here, and it's where the government is putting more of its resources right now - creating a database of foreign students rather than paying people to march up and down the Mexican border.

The only people walking across the border are those too poor to find a better way into this country. I don't think terrorists fall into that category.

The priority is eliminating the terrorist organizations and the diffusing the political climate that allowed those organizations to grow. The threat from illegal immigrants is very small. The threat from Al Qaeda and similar organizations is very large. The place to go after terrorism is in the Middle East and in our visa system, not at the Mexican border.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Originally posted by Thiebear

I never understood why the MEDIA was overplaying this calling them VigilAnte's when they were obviously Neighborhood Watch.

But that doenst sound very sexy does it...

I think when people hear the word vigilante, they think of people killing the bad guys and taking the law into their own hands...it has a very ultra dramatic tone and connotation to it, i think...

so the liberal media wants to get people up in arms who don't fully know the facts..."hey, these guys are VIGILANTES, keeping mexicans out!!" when i first heard they were called vigilantes, i was like "good lord, they're on the border with guns..."

[Dead Money]

Immigration policy needs to be corrected, I am not sure how but have some homework for you guys...

Find a source to report an illegal alien to in the US government. Now I don't mean give me the phone number for immigration, I mean find somewhere that tells you how to report an illegal alien.

OK, I'll save you te trouble - you cannot. There is no way to do this.

As an employer of over 5000 employees in 24 states, our company has found it impossible to report illegal aliens that are discovered working for our clients.

We have stumbled on several organizations using nothing but illegal immigrants (sometimes hundreds) and have been basically told to "go away" by immigration, DOJ, HLD, etc..

The simple fact is that the IRS and state tax authorities get to keep all the taxes collected under false IDs, AND the IRS actaully charges fines back to the employer for submitting false or duplicate SS numbers each and every year with no way to resolve the matter.

It averages $100 per year per employee and can add up quickly.

Its a mess but I realize that if there was a HOTLINE or something all the haters would be calling 24/7 and it would be impossible to enforce...

That why we can't report them, its un-enforcable.

[skins1972]

Originally posted by 36SKINS56

no...no shooting...gettin them the hell out of my country?...yes

Dumbest thing I have ever heard... Never forget that you come from an Immigrant family your self, this country was found on the basis of immigrants. Not to forget those same immigrants that you want to kick out/kill or whatever the stupid idea you have, they work jobs that you and I refuse to do my friend, while some US Citizens that are healthy are sitting on their fat asses collecting food stamps!!! Don’t forget about Social Security, they pay so much of it and never collect it. Give me a break and stop hating.

[Kilmer17]

Immigrant vs illegal immigrant.

[luckydevil]

The only people walking across the border are those too poor to find a better way into this country. I don't think terrorists fall into that category.

Absolutely

I want my government to make it easier for people to come to this country, not harder.

[tex]

Originally posted by zoony

Article in NY Times tomorrow will reveal that illegal immigrants contribute $7 billion per annum towards social security and never draw benefits.

Also, why do you suppose food is so cheap in this country?

Couple that with the deafening silence from Republicans and big-business (and Dem's too, for that matter)... and thinking twice about this issue is not a bad idea.

I'm not trying to justify it at all... just present the entire picture.

Bet that liberal rag will make no mention of the fact that what the "illegal immigrants" are doing is illegal. . . bet they skip right over that part. Likewise I doubt it will mention the negative impact of illegal aliens on health care, education, and law enforcement not to mention the fact that they use our city parks, roads, and other infrastructure.

Many people believe that foreign workers offer a fairly painless way out of the Social Security dilemma: Immigrants pay billions in payroll taxes. Many, especially illegals, do not stick around to receive retirement benefits. Even non-U.S. citizens are required to pay Social Security taxes on income earned in the U.S. unless specifically exempt. So on balance immigrants and guest workers are a positive for the Social Security System, and by increasing their numbers we can reduce the funding shortfall. At least that’s the assumption.

In reality many foreign workers, including highly-skilled employees here on H-1b visas, pay no Social Security taxes whatsoever. Since the 1970s the Social Security Administration has concluded so-called “Totalization Agreements” with about 18 different countries, under which foreign workers may have their Social Security deductions sent to their home country program (rather than the SSA), and vice-versa. One of the primary objectives of the agreements is to eliminate dual Social Security taxation as would occur when a worker sent to the U.S. by his employer must pay tax to both the United States and his home country.

It might seem to make some sense to bring the shadow, underground immigrant worker business into the light of day, and take untaxed, undocumented workers into the system. But it makes little sense to take the risks associated with this plan, on the heels of a totalization agreement with Mexico, allowing social security payroll tax to be sent out of our system.

And after working six years without paying Social Security taxes many H-1bs get Green Cards, qualifying them for Social Security benefits when they retire. No effort is made to collect back payroll taxes. And what about those American workers who lose their jobs, their health insurance, and Social Security points because companies prefer the cheaper H-1bs?

[zoony]

Originally posted by tex

Bet that liberal rag will make no mention of the fact that what the "illegal immigrants" are doing is illegal. . . bet they skip right over that part. Likewise I doubt it will mention the negative impact of illegal aliens on health care, education, and law enforcement not to mention the fact that they use our city parks, roads, and other infrastructure.

Many people believe that foreign workers offer a fairly painless way out of the Social Security dilemma: Immigrants pay billions in payroll taxes. Many, especially illegals, do not stick around to receive retirement benefits. Even non-U.S. citizens are required to pay Social Security taxes on income earned in the U.S. unless specifically exempt. So on balance immigrants and guest workers are a positive for the Social Security System, and by increasing their numbers we can reduce the funding shortfall. At least that’s the assumption.

In reality many foreign workers, including highly-skilled employees here on H-1b visas, pay no Social Security taxes whatsoever. Since the 1970s the Social Security Administration has concluded so-called “Totalization Agreements” with about 18 different countries, under which foreign workers may have their Social Security deductions sent to their home country program (rather than the SSA), and vice-versa. One of the primary objectives of the agreements is to eliminate dual Social Security taxation as would occur when a worker sent to the U.S. by his employer must pay tax to both the United States and his home country.

It might seem to make some sense to bring the shadow, underground immigrant worker business into the light of day, and take untaxed, undocumented workers into the system. But it makes little sense to take the risks associated with this plan, on the heels of a totalization agreement with Mexico, allowing social security payroll tax to be sent out of our system.

And after working six years without paying Social Security taxes many H-1bs get Green Cards, qualifying them for Social Security benefits when they retire. No effort is made to collect back payroll taxes. And what about those American workers who lose their jobs, their health insurance, and Social Security points because companies prefer the cheaper H-1bs?

Interesting post, Tex.

I really don't disagree for the most part, you make some valid points.

All I'm saying is... I was in Kroger the other day and it really hit home how cheap produce and food is in this country. My God, i don't know how ANY money is made off produce. How can you even ship it for 98 cents a pound? :whoknows:

Without illegal immigrant labor, those positions no doubt would be filled by an organization i.e. the United Farmhands Union at $25 / hour.

How much do you think a brand new car would cost without the UAW?

Recently there was an article in the WS journal about how Ford Motor was trying to convince their line workers to take a step down in health benefits to the level of their white colar management.

Think about that for a minute. That is sick.

Look, it is very simple. It is supply and demand. We as consumers don't complain about low prices, to say the least. Yet we complain rampantly about illegal immigrants rushing into this country to fill positions that none of us want.

I guess my point is that the same people who complain about illegal immigrants are the same people b!tching about ptivr hikes at the grocery store, at the pumps, and in the marketplace.

Of course, having your cake and eating it too is the American way, so I realize that this is an exercise in futility. But I think it is worth mentioning. Dont you?

[DjTj]

Originally posted by tex

Bet that liberal rag will make no mention of the fact that what the "illegal immigrants" are doing is illegal. . . bet they skip right over that part. Likewise I doubt it will mention the negative impact of illegal aliens on health care, education, and law enforcement not to mention the fact that they use our city parks, roads, and other infrastructure.

They also pay sales taxes, their landlords pay property taxes, and their employers pay a tax on their business income, all of which go towards funding these government services.

Many people believe that foreign workers offer a fairly painless way out of the Social Security dilemma: Immigrants pay billions in payroll taxes. Many, especially illegals, do not stick around to receive retirement benefits. Even non-U.S. citizens are required to pay Social Security taxes on income earned in the U.S. unless specifically exempt. So on balance immigrants and guest workers are a positive for the Social Security System, and by increasing their numbers we can reduce the funding shortfall. At least that’s the assumption.

In reality many foreign workers, including highly-skilled employees here on H-1b visas, pay no Social Security taxes whatsoever. Since the 1970s the Social Security Administration has concluded so-called “Totalization Agreements” with about 18 different countries, under which foreign workers may have their Social Security deductions sent to their home country program (rather than the SSA), and vice-versa. One of the primary objectives of the agreements is to eliminate dual Social Security taxation as would occur when a worker sent to the U.S. by his employer must pay tax to both the United States and his home country.

It might seem to make some sense to bring the shadow, underground immigrant worker business into the light of day, and take untaxed, undocumented workers into the system. But it makes little sense to take the risks associated with this plan, on the heels of a totalization agreement with Mexico, allowing social security payroll tax to be sent out of our system.

And after working six years without paying Social Security taxes many H-1bs get Green Cards, qualifying them for Social Security benefits when they retire. No effort is made to collect back payroll taxes.

It's fun to speculate about all the loopholes that immigrants could be exploiting, but the bottom line is, these people are not the most sophisticated at navigating the tax code or even immigration law. Give me some raw data about immigrants that are actually exploiting these loopholes, and I'll point out the billions more that the government is losing from American citizens and corporations that can afford their own tax lawyers.

On balance, I believe immigrants are getting far less in benefits than they deserve. When you're working 60-70 hours a week, you don't have a lot of time to think of ways to squeeze pennies out of the government.

And what about those American workers who lose their jobs, their health insurance, and Social Security points because companies prefer the cheaper H-1bs?

H-1b's are only cheaper because they are willing to work for less. H-1b's are living in the United States, shopping at the same supermarket, and paying the same rent as Americans. The playing field is much more level between an American and an H-1b than between an American and an outsource center in India or China. I'd rather keep the job in America, to someone that will put their salary back into the American economy.

[Ancalagon the Black]

There are strict regulations in place to prevent H-1bs from being paid less than American citizens performing the same work.

[NoCalMike]

My only problem with the minutemen is that they are trying to assist a government that quite frankly doesn't care about curbing illegal immigrants. It would be different if Bush came out and said in a speech that it was a serious issue, but we are out-manned, then of course the minute-men step up for the cause, however the powers in the government and the corporate world benefit all around from undocumented workers, even one of the co-founders of the minutemen was found to have used undocumented workers to remodel his house....LOL. Until our government and corporate america decide that the tradeoff of using undocumented workers is too high a price to pay for the downside, then the minutemen are as useless as the border patrol.