Controversial thread: More evidence that Snyder is a GREAT owner.

[Art]

Dan Snyder proved once again this week just how good he is as our owner. Coles was a productive, popular player for our football team. We invested a lot of money into him. The move was a GOOD move. Reasonably, the trade we made for Moss was a BAD trade. We all know this.

There were positive aspects, to be sure. But, this was not a trade of relative equals. It was not a trade we received good value back for. We took a massive hit. We took a lessening in player production and ability. And we did this because Snyder's football people told him it needed to be done.

To accomplish what THEY need to accomplish, Coles couldn't be part of the equation once he asked not to be. Snyder's football people went to him and explained that they would either wish to release him or receive SOME value in return, causing us to swallow a massive cap hit, and Snyder didn't do what an owner could reasonably have done.

He didn't say, "Tough."

He could have. He could have told his football people they were crazy. That he didn't want to eat an additional $6 million against the cap because he didn't believe the philosophy Gibbs was bringing him.

He MAY have said, "I hope you know what you're doing and this had better work." But, he listened to his football people and allowed them to do what they wished. Even if what they wished, on paper, isn't a move most would make if JUST looking at the parameters of the deals involved.

Snyder didn't have an ego that indicated since he helped bring Coles in, this staff had to live with his player. He didn't undermine the staff. Gibbs said to Coles, "You can go," and Coles got to go. Gibbs is in charge. The owner is enabling that.

And, this trade is further evidence of Snyder's emergence as a very fine owner.

If the move fails and Moss sucks, certainly people here will scream that Cerrato is an idiot and Snyder is a fool, and they will continue to miss just how good a job Snyder does in deferring to his football people for these types of decisions. If the decision fails, it's on his football people.

He's doing what they tell him they need to do to win.

If he has the right guys to win, he'll be a reason why, because of how he gives his people the ability to craft their own plan.

[China]

Well, someone will find something bad too say about Snyder regardless what some of us believe or know. Such as "Snyder is an enabler!" (said in a derogatory tone of voice as if he is enabling an alcohol or narcotics addiction)

[iheartskins]

Originally posted by China

Well, someone will find something bad too say about Snyder regardless what some of us believe or know. Such as "Snyder is an enabler!" (said in a derogatory tone of voice as if he is enabling an alcohol or narcotics addiction)

And to play the contrarian, someone will always manage to say something positive about him no matter the merits of his decisions.

Is he a good owner? A lot of people would say yes. Can reasonable minds differ about just how good of an owner he is: absolutely.

[herrmag]

In my opinion, it's an owner's job to listen to his football people. I don't get recognition at work for simply doing my job, so I think you are giving him too much credit. However, I'm glad that he is listening to his football people, and it shows that he is maturing as an owner. Maybe he'll begin to drift to the background and be less of a public presence. That would certainly do wonders for his image, and the image of the Redskins as a whole.

[China]

Originally posted by iheartskins

And to play the contrarian, someone will always manage to say something positive about him no matter the merits of his decisions.

Is he a good owner? A lot of people would say yes. Can reasonable minds differ about just how good of an owner he is: absolutely.

I think Art's point is that the decisions he may be getting criticized for are not necessarily his, but those of Gibbs and Co.

Certainly, reasonable people can disagree on the extent of his quality as a owner.

[TheDane]

This sounds like it could be the truth. Snyder took his medicine for making a high-priced move that made some sense in 2003, but doesn't make sense now. He didn't let his ego get in the way of his coach's desire.

However, I would add that I don't think Snyder would have taken much convincing to do this. Look at the negative facts on Coles:

(1) Bad attitude

(2) Risk surrounding toe

(3) Big contract

In fact, this move approximates what a good businessman would do when evaluating risk-return in a declining-return scenario: cut your losses, endure pain now, restructure your business so it's stronger in the long term. Snyder knows business - don't forget that - so this argument is logical to him.

Remember also that Moss was Snyder's man from the get-go, so I don't think he's rending garments and crying woe-is-me now that Moss is on our team.

[fansince62]

art.....your sense of humor just made my day!!!!!

[GangstaSkinz]

Coach didn't want him to be a Skin

Fans didn't want him to be a Skin

Coles didn't want to be a Skin.

Jets didn't want Coles to be a Skin.

Seems to work out well for everyone but the bank.

[tr1]

It would be a killer if we had an "Abe Pollen" owning the Redskins....it would just be ugly.

But I think this move was easy for Snyder, simply because, I suspect, the Coaches AND medical staff were saying that toe wouldn't hold up....time to try and get something for him if he isn't going to get the operation....otherwise, you pay anyways and he sits out with the nagging injury.

This was not a bad deal.

[iheartskins]

Originally posted by China

I think Art's point is that the decisions he may be getting criticized for are not necessarily his, but those of Gibbs and Co.

Certainly, reasonable people can disagree on the extent of his quality as a owner.

I don't disagree with your analysis of Art's point. My only contention was that fact based criticism of his quality should be tolerated and not derided as "stupid" or "hating" etc.

[jrfriedm]

Great post Art :applause:

I couldn't agree with you more. It is true, that in the beggining Snyder tried to buy a Super Bowl, but he quickly learned that just can't be done. So then tried to get the best coach available, and do every thing possable to give that coach every thing they wanted/needed, and he has done a great job of that. It's now time for the coaches and their hand picked players to go out and perform like they paid for.

[GSF]

Originally posted by iheartskins

And to play the contrarian, someone will always manage to say something positive about him no matter the merits of his decisions.

Is he a good owner? A lot of people would say yes. Can reasonable minds differ about just how good of an owner he is: absolutely.

What can you reasonably say that Snyder has done bad in the last 3 seasons? Nothing really.

It's obvious Snyder has learned from his mistakes. I think he's evolved into a fine owner, and will be considered one of the best when he and Joe win a superbowl together.

[Art]

Originally posted by iheartskins

I don't disagree with your analysis of Art's point. My only contention was that fact based criticism of his quality should be tolerated and not derided as "stupid" or "hating" etc.

Thoughtful criticism based in fact should be tolerated. But, almost all criticism of Snyder lacks fact and thought and should be exposed for the stupidity it is. Reasonably, one can find actual negatives that are factual in nature and tell all of the known story as to reasons NOT to like Snyder.

This move, though, is a perfect example of a move that will ultimately be one fans BLAME Snyder for -- saying he doesn't know football and should stay out of things most likely -- if it doesn't work out, where if it does, people will fawn over Gibbs. No one will actually BLAME Gibbs if it fails.

[Art]

Originally posted by fansince62

art.....your sense of humor just made my day!!!!!

Your level of ignorance on THIS subject continues to make mine.

[FLSKINSFAN]

I know this thread is about Snyder, but I just want to add one more thing to the Coles-Moss trade. For this team to be successful, Coles could not have come back, You absolutely can't have him on you're team next year. This is the type of move you see Bill Belichick make. Take the cap hit, and get rid of a locker room cancer. If we are going to have any success this year, Coles would have to be gone from this team one way or another. I'm happy we were able to get Moss.

Good move by Gibbs, and thank you Dan for agreeing.

[E-Dog Night]

I'd be willing to admit that he is improving, though clearly I am not in the "I love Dan Snyder" camp.

But it just seems that the same ol' thing is happening again, like today's team has Snyder’s old spending habits and controlling nature around its neck like an albatross.

It make take a few years to purge the previous few years of fantasy football signings, culturally and physically. But this offseason seems like another crazy upheaval.

[herrmag]

Originally posted by Art

Thoughtful criticism based in fact should be tolerated. But, almost all criticism of Snyder lacks fact and thought and should be exposed for the stupidity it is. Reasonably, one can find actual negatives that are factual in nature and tell all of the known story as to reasons NOT to like Snyder.

This move, though, is a perfect example of a move that will ultimately be one fans BLAME Snyder for -- saying he doesn't know football and should stay out of things most likely -- if it doesn't work out, where if it does, people will fawn over Gibbs. No one will actually BLAME Gibbs if it fails.

Maybe in the national media, this is true. However, at least on this board, I'd like to think we're all aware of who was in charge of this decision. Unfortunately, I don't think the decision was one that anyone in the organization wanted to make. But, being stuck between a rock and a hard place sucks sometimes.

[Art]

Originally posted by China

I think Art's point is that the decisions he may be getting criticized for are not necessarily his, but those of Gibbs and Co.

Certainly, reasonable people can disagree on the extent of his quality as a owner.

This is a great portion of my point.

The rest of my point is, it takes a GOOD owner to allow this kind of move to EVEN be contemplated. A CHEAP owner would have cost Gibbs leverage by saying to release him when he was offering to give back some of the initial signing bonus so he wouldn't have to pay it.

Snyder allowed his people to tell him how they wanted to approach it, and understood doing it the way they wanted meant he'd have to make an additional $5 million in payment -- from a contract three years ago -- to a guy we wouldn't have on the roster.

It takes a gracious owner to do something like this when his football people ask him to.

[dfbovey]

I don't think he can be considered a good owner just yet. He's becoming better and learning from past mistakes, but IMO he has done far more things to hurt the team than he has to help. And until the good outweighs the bad, or his decisions start resulting in wins... I can't defend him.

[@DCGoldPants]

I think Snyder is a good owner because he's trying to win. Doesn't always mean he's the smartest owner.

But in this situation. He's hands off...and has been with the exception of dealing with guys that Gibbs wants.

However, I don't think this Coles/Moss situation reflects on Snyder in any way to me.

Coles was brought in for Spurrier's offense. Well, if he doesn't fit. Then Moss won't either. So, I don't buy that from the papers.

[illone]

Snyder will always get thrown under the bus as long as the Skins don't make the playoffs.

I personally love the fact that he co-signs Gibbs on decisions like this.

You won't hear(see) me complain about Snyder.

I can't wait to see the mediots try to backpedal once we start winning again.

[wskin44]

I've gotta agree with Art. I think that Snyder and Gibbs are learning to work with each other and that over the next few seasons the Redskins will be a much better managed team. Is Snyder the greatest owner? Probably not. Is he getting better, even before Gibbs arrived? Yes. Does he have the potential to be the greatest owner? Yes. Has Gibbs made mistakes since he came back? Yes. Is he learning the new NFL both on the field and off? Yes. Are we headed in the right direction? Absolutely.

Another stray thought just hit my tiny mind: If Ramsey can find Coles 90 times in a season when Coles is playing hurt and playing out of position as a possesion receiver, then what kind of damage will Ramsey do if he has Mike Williams as his possesion receiver? Ramsey can zing a fastball and Williams can use his size, athletic ability and hands to catch those fastballs.

In the long run we may be better off without a hurt Coles and replace him with Williams. With Moss and Patten as speed guys it could make a great WR corp. I can't help but thinking that this is what Gibbs and Snyder are planning.

[TheDane]

Originally posted by E-Dog Night

I'd be willing to admit that he is improving, though clearly I am not in the "I love Dan Snyder" camp.

But it just seems that the same ol' thing is happening again, like today's team has Snyder’s old spending habits and controlling nature around its neck like an albatross.

It make take a few years to purge the previous few years of fantasy football signings, culturally and physically. But this offseason seems like another crazy upheaval.

I don't classify Coles as a fantasy football signing at all. One can easily make the argument that Laveranues Coles was the right signing at the time, driven by SOS's motivation to have a playmaker WR to run the Fun'n'Gun. In signing Coles in the first place, it seems pretty clear that Snyder listened to SOS' requests for a playmaker.

Yes, in hindsight, Coles was overpaid. But if Coles hadn't injured his toe and had maintained his Pro Bowl pace for the term of his contract... we would have been doing backflips and tattooing "Danny" on our pectorals.

The only place you can argue Snyder should have done more work is in a psychological evaluation. But even there, prevailing thought praised Coles' hard work ethic.

I think Dan learned his lesson well before 2003.

[Art]

Originally posted by E-Dog Night

I'd be willing to admit that he is improving, though clearly I am not in the "I love Dan Snyder" camp.

But it just seems that the same ol' thing is happening again, like today's team has Snyder’s old spending habits and controlling nature around its neck like an albatross.

It make take a few years to purge the previous few years of fantasy football signings, culturally and physically. But this offseason seems like another crazy upheaval.

Little of what we've done the last few years qualify as fantasy football signings. This is the type of stupidity surrounding Snyder I'm talking about. The last three years Snyder has allowed his football people to craft a plan to fill areas of need for two different coaching staffs. This is the fourth year of such. Signing a player who fills an area of weakness isn't a fantasy football move.

It's a football move.

Snyder's not playing fantasy football. He's the owner of a football team. Washington, Griffin, Noble, Daniels, Springs, Coles, Thomas, Portis, etc., etc., etc., are players specifically signed to fill an area of need on the team. Nothing about the spending caused the move for Coles.

In fact, the spending was SOOOOOOOOOO under control, the team could actually EAT a massive contract like Coles had, WHILE acquiring a new player and still having money under the cap. That's an impressive feat because as many of us have mentioned, the ONLY cap trouble we can run into as a team with the way we manage the cap is if we experience the SUDDEN retirement or career ending injury for a player making a ton of bonus money.

The Coles trade essentially IS a sudden retirement or career ending injury for cap effect. And, yet, we've got room NOW for other moves, and room to come when Gardner goes, and we acquired a new receiver, and we made next year's cap somewhat less cumbersome.

Are we tight against the cap?

Sure. But, so were we when Marty decided to cut Stubblefield and eat nearly $10 million against the cap. The ability to make these moves while not crippling yourself is generally a sign of good management.

[RDSKNfaithfull]

:doh:

This is more of Gibbs doing than Snyder. The kudos I can give him is for learing to let football people do their thing. In previous years Dan was the type of owner who would have changed coaches or pulled the coach into the office and told him we need to make this guy happy. :2cents:

I say More evidence that GIBBS is a great coach.