Controversial thread: More evidence that Snyder is a GREAT owner.

[jbooma]

Originally posted by RDSKNfaithfull

Everybody take a deep breath :smooch: and make up. No need to be condescending:cool:

I liked where the younger person called the older "son" :laugh: :laugh:

[33]

What mistakes has Snyder really been called out for lately?

The last I remember was cutting Wuerffel when Spurrier didn't want to. Kinda messed up to Ol Ball Coach, but any of us would have certainly at least THOUGHT about doing the same.

Since then, He has hired JOE JACKSON GIBBS. Gimme a break. The guy gets a five year reprieve from me. I would have offered to cut off a limb for this in the past. Now I get it for free?

On top of that every move since then has been reasonable at worst. A lot of people don't like that we traded Coles, took a cap hit, and lost a pick. Get over it. Everything costs. Looking in the rearview mirror is no good. Especially when you're looking at what a different regime did. Marty cleared house when he came.

When you break up with someone do you think about how it was an uneven deal because you gave up so much to be with them? No, you thank your lucky stars that you didn't make the mistake of being with them longer and making yourself miserable for whatever reason.

[The Sisko]

Interesting analysis Art. However I think as usual your burgundy and gold glasses prevented you from taking some things into account.

First, it can easily be argued that Snyderatto should have done more due diligence before going after Coles in F.A. Obtaining players this way is a somewhat risky strategy because anything that prevents a player from completing his contract will most likely screw our cap.

Secondly I agree that our F.O. did do a good job in managing to at least get something in exchange for Coles. Not doing so would have been a disaster. However I suspect that as Snyder has sported wood over Moss since the day he was drafted, he didn't do a heck of a lot of searching around to see exactly what we could have had instead of a somewhat brittle, short and yes, very fast WR. My point here is that Snyder's penchant for "getting his guy" perhaps blinded him to other options that might have been better than Moss. If he gives Moss an extension with a fat S.B. that will only make matters worse.

Finally, your argument assumes that Snyder can say no to Gibbs. In theory he can, but in reality he and everyone else in Redskins park knows that Gibbs is in fact king. Therefore the jury is still out on whether he's learned to listen to his football guys.

As for your opinion of Pioli that's just sad. Try comparing how many STARTERS Pioli has picked in the mid to late rounds vs. Snyderatto. Your "change in systems" argument is flawed because were this the case, the guys (drafted by Snyderatto)we've cut because they don't fit into our new system would be starting or doing well elsewhere. As you know that's not the case.

I don't care what titles are ascribed to Pioli and Reid, the fact is they function as de facto GMs for their respective clubs. Both are given pretty much full authority to hire/fire both players and coaches. This role, no matter what you want to be cute and call it, is what this team desperately needs....even with Gibbs. I stand by my previous assertion that Snyderatto isn't the worst owner in the league but as always he's hanging around the middle third.

[Art]

Originally posted by GB81

It's quite vexing. We have a "GREAT" owner, and a personnel guy who has done a better job than his counterparts on the Eagles and the Patriots...yet they continue to average 12 wins a year and rattle off playoff victories and we can't seem to get above .500.

If we have a great owner, and we're signing the best possible players...then...

Well, I'm getting caught up in this whole "results" thing...which is really beside the point. Great owner, brilliant personnel guy.

It's not at all vexing. What IS vexing is the childlike inability you echo from those who incorrectly place blame. For example, Cerrato thought Trotter would be a good addition. Marvin Lewis thought so too. Everyone knew what type of player Trotter was. Lewis said to get him. We got him.

Then, Lewis proceeded to use him in a way that didn't look like he recognized what type of player Trotter was. Here's an example of where coaching let down the ownership and the front office. This has happened time and again.

So, while you keep getting caught up in the results thing, that's great. Just realize the results thing reflects on the people responsible for the failure over the years and to this point, that is on the various coaches we've had, including Gibbs. Not on the successful offseasons we've had, as recognized by the coaches we've had, including Gibbs.

[GB81]

It's an uphill climb to make an argument that Cerrato has consistently gotten players the coaches thought they wanted, and then the carousel of coordinators rolling through Ashburn consistently found that they were unable to appropriately utilize those players as they thought, thus leading to the consistent poor play of the Snyder/Cerrato era--save for the year Snyder took over and was stuck with a coach and roster he didn't choose (10-6).

And between credit card debacles, blocked seats, no walking to the stadium, trading for the wrong 5th round draft pick, the controversy with Lavar's contract, giving up a 1st rounder and millions in cap space for two years of service from Coles culminating in him asking to leave, the highest ticket prices in the league, the highest beer prices in the league, charging for training camp, the fantasy football year, the constant turnover of coaches, the lack of a GM, etc...yes, you have heard them and others all before...and maybe you can write off some of them...but honestly, can a rational person tell me that there is not a pattern of poor management here?

Over the Snyder years, there are only two constants on this team. The roster is completely tunred over (save for one player) and the coaching staff has changed numerous times--but Snyder and Cerrato are there.

At some point, I think we should consider that they might be accountable for something.

[DCMONEY]

I always liked Snyders' aggresiveness but in a Cap age there has to be a method to the madness. I know he wants to win badly. If there was no Cap he'd be a footbal Steinbrenner, but there is so the Skins organization have to map out a plan and get some continuity. You achieve that by not making wholesale changes year in and year out. I had mad respect for Coles before he pulled this stunt though. I kinda wished the Skins had kept him and sent him out on suicide routes to give gim what he wants. I wish him bad luck football wise for the rest of his career. I hope we play the Jets and Lavar or Sean Taylor get clean shots on him. :point2sky

[Warhead36]

I'd still take Snyder over the majority of other owners in the league, INCLUDING the Eagles owner. He sure gets a lot of ass kissing but he didn't even get to the Super Bowl until pulling a Snyder himself and spending some dough.

[fansince62]

this has to rank among the lamest themes to ever fill the hours of boredom between the end of the season and the draft. Dan does what the coaches say.....he's a great owner! I must confess - there is a mystical, magical spray of pixie dust one feels as the thought suffuses every fibre of one's being! Dan is a great owner! Dan is a great owner! Dan is a great owner! (feel free to click your heels three times). He gives the coaches what they want! My, my we are setting the bar high on this one!!!!

Not sure why you feel compelled to mount your white steed and ride to danny boy's defense with all the "logic" and "fact" surrounding a punchline that is patently ridiculous - there is no standard for what constitutes a great owner. If this is all about defending Redskins high and low - have at it. You are often brilliant - this is....well.......not so interesting.

how about getting back to football? your recent post on speed versus size was pretty *amn good. the dan is doing quite well on his own.

[Art]

Lame, Al, is the inability of YOU and those like you who absolutely discount the primary job of an owner as inconsequential while putting blame on the owner for things that aren't his responsibility under the umbrella of an owner is responsible for every bad pass, bad call, false start, turnover, etc. Dumb and, indeed, lame.

I haven't read every post here, so I don't mean to pick on you specifically. I saw Yusuf, for example, here, and without even a glance I can tell you that somewhere in his reply he utilize a position long exposed as thoughtless when he says if Cerrato drafted so well his players would still be in the league.

Which, of course, is not how it works as we all know. Teams draft guys who fit their systems. They spend time and money on those guys to develop them. Guys who are drafted late who fail elsewhere are RARELY brought in to new teams UNLESS a coach previously in one organization has moved to another.

The reason Russell and Bauman are on the Bengals isn't because they were really good picks where others weren't. It's because they are two guys Lewis knew a lot about from his time in Washington. He was part of the group researching those players and he understood what they were and felt comfortable trying to develop them.

Most picks who pan out in one place don't resurface elsewhere unless a coach is there to revive them. Or, these guys bounce around for years until someone sees something and they catch a break.

Yet, people keep using the same dumb logic as I'm sure Yusuf did, to support a position that may or may not be true, but isn't true with a false position to prop it up. It's quite lame, indeed, that too few people recognize an owner's job is to hire good people, stay out of their way and provide what they ask for.

Lame is not knowing this.

And, Yusuf, if you didn't make this dumb argument, AND if you didn't comment that if Cerrato was so good why didn't anyone hire him while he was working for ESPN, then, I apologize for assuming you'd use these invalid positions in support of your point of view. I was just making a point that I don't even have to read the negative side anymore to know exactly what you're going to say, even when you guys know it's not a valid position.

If you didn't do this, I'm sorry, but, I'm real confident you did precisely this. And, I'm sure you did this while blaming me for having burgandy and gold glasses on, because, that is so beneficial to your point .

[Tae Bo]

Why Dan Snyder has been a bad owner, let me count the ways...

5 OFF SEASONS

4 COACHES

the man has been a miserable failure as a leader

[lawboy_2000]

Read the Washington Times article today on Capology and how it relates to the Redksins. Danny needs someone to protect him from himself, and , I'm sorry to say this but, JG and VC are not those people.

Danny needs a seasoned GM, let Vinny run the scouting operations, let JG coach, and stay out of the way...That is a formula for success.

[fansince62]

art.....again....you are often brilliant...but you are sulliing the luminous reputation that I and others value highly. The real point is that no one really cares about Snyder - he is a multi-millionaire who made his cash in the communications industry and who, ironically enough, has a horrendous public image problem. You yourself have pointed out - repeatedly - that our esteemed owner has nothing to do with winning: that is the burden of the players and the coaches.

For my own part, I could care less about Snyder. If you feel compelled to defend against what you consider unwarranted attacks - that has some academic value I suppose - but, by your own admonitions elsewhere - has nothing to do with winning. It's a stale argument. Snyder is who he is. He doesn't plot the Xs and Os, he doesn't run the routes, HE DOES NOTHING TO WIN GAMES. He's a figurehead who doles out the cash rather like a puppet if we are to believe the posters in this and other threads. Thanks Dan for your largess (though you more than make up for it elsewhere). Thanks for loving the Skins as much as the rest of us. We are all greatful that you have learned to stay out the way and allow savvy football people to make the important decisions. This is a good thing - it does not qualify you for humanitarian of the year or the hall of fame, but in the net, it represents progress and an ability to learn from one's mistakes.

[Neophyte]

Originally posted by Art

I haven't read every post here, so I don't mean to pick on you specifically. I saw Yusuf, for example, here, and without even a glance I can tell you that somewhere in his reply he utilize a position long exposed as thoughtless when he says if Cerrato drafted so well his players would still be in the league.

Which, of course, is not how it works as we all know. Teams draft guys who fit their systems. They spend time and money on those guys to develop them. Guys who are drafted late who fail elsewhere are RARELY brought in to new teams UNLESS a coach previously in one organization has moved to another.

The reason Russell and Bauman are on the Bengals isn't because they were really good picks where others weren't. It's because they are two guys Lewis knew a lot about from his time in Washington. He was part of the group researching those players and he understood what they were and felt comfortable trying to develop them.

Most picks who pan out in one place don't resurface elsewhere unless a coach is there to revive them. Or, these guys bounce around for years until someone sees something and they catch a break.

Yet, people keep using the same dumb logic as I'm sure Yusuf did, to support a position that may or may not be true, but isn't true with a false position to prop it up. It's quite lame, indeed, that too few people recognize an owner's job is to hire good people, stay out of their way and provide what they ask for.

Lame is not knowing this.

Funny but virtually the entire coaching staffs from the preceeding 3 Head Coaches are out there somewhere cause they are aren't here. They could have brought in any of these players we have let go and with only a couple of exceptions they have not.

At some point it is the personnel guy's responsibility is to find football players. Guys you want on your team because of that fact. Not because they fit the offensive or defensive system but because they are football players. Blue collar guys. Guys who show up everyday to practice and play. Guys who will never be stars in the league but whom you depend on to help your team win. With the exception of Cartwright, Royal and Lott, Cerrato has none of those to his credit. In 4 years of drafting he has found 3 guys like that.

While we are at it, it was his job to help find good FA's to sign but to start off the Snyder ownership he either encouraged going with older, more expensive guys as a quick fix or did not tell Danny that would not get it done. Either way he was wrong. Danny trusted Vinny to help him make the right football decisions early on and Vinny let him down. The thing I think Snyder did really wrong was to hire and keep Cerrato around.

I am sorry but I consider the unwillingness to face the facts where Vinny is concerned to be dumb and lame. Your words, not mine.

Maybe I am wrong and it is all about system and Cerrato is blamless in this thing. Maybe 3 years from now I will look at the drafts under Gibbs/Snyder/Cerrato as things of brilliance and beauty where we got lots of great young talent. The problem is, I don't think we will ever know for sure if it was really Cerrato or not. I am afraid we will stuck with this arguement for ever.

What I know is that if I were made President of the Washington Redskins today, Cerrato would be looking for a job by 5 this afternoon and I think he would be a long time getting one in the NFL.

[The Sisko]

Most picks who pan out in one place don't resurface elsewhere unless a coach is there to revive them. Or, these guys bounce around for years until someone sees something and they catch a break.

Wrong. Players that don't work out for one team often find a place with another team. You're correct that coaches do tend to bring in "their" guys. However there's more to it than that. A good player is a good player, and savvy GMs (there's that pesky title again) will find them eventually. This may happen in no small part because with F.A. teams often find themselves needing inexpensive depth. Oftentimes that inexpensive depth becomes a pretty good player. That few of Cerrato's picks have been able to do so speaks volumes.

Lame is not knowing this.

Actually lame is continually burying your head in the sand to protect a guy that has a track record of glorious victories:rolleyes: like Snyder. Please forgive me, but I just don't consider averaging 7 wins per season to be all that great. Had Gibbs not chosen to come back this team would be in big trouble about now.

And, Yusuf, if you didn't make this dumb argument, AND if you didn't comment that if Cerrato was so good why didn't anyone hire him while he was working for ESPN, then, I apologize for assuming you'd use these invalid positions in support of your point of view.

You were half right so no apologies necessary. However, to be fair I didn't need to read your prior posts to know that you claimed that the Patsies and Fecals don't have a "GM", that Snyder shouldn't be held accountable for the results brought about by people he hired and that he's actually God....no wait, that would be you. :doh:

[RDSKNfaithfull]

What I know is that if I were made President of the Washington Redskins today, Cerrato would be looking for a job by 5 this afternoon and I think he would be a long time getting one in the NFL.

He would get a job no problem. He is not a G.M. not even close but he is good at scouting. He should be demoted to head of scouting because he is a yes man. Snyder has not put him in a postion to succeed;)

[tkatz]

Art -

You always seem to have words of wisdom and are always on point with your arguments but in this instance I must respectfully disagree. I am stunned you chose the word great when referring to Dan Snyder’s ability as an owner. I could understand the terms "improving" - "learning" - or "on the verge of greatness" but to actually deem Snyder as a great owner this early own is greatly exaggerated.

Dan Snyder has made far too many mistakes to be considered a great owner this early on. Snyder botched the salary cap as well as wasted opportunities by signing Jeff George, Mark Carrier, Deion Sanders, and Bruce Smith. Snyder stuck his face where it didn’t belong during Marty's brief campaign and undermined his coach. After one season he fired Marty only to bring in the guy he wanted, Steve Spurrier. After two seasons under Spurrier, Snyder began meddling in his chosen coaches affairs. Snyder decided to have his stooge Vinny Cerratto in charge who would bend to whatever Snyder wanted. On top of all these drawbacks he has created constant turn-over in the coaching staff which has caused the stunted development of players such as Arrington and Samuels. The team has lacked coaching consistency ever since he has become owner. He brought turmoil to the team during those years.........Yet Snyder has also done some great things for this team.

Bringing back Joe Gibbs was a stroke of genius. Swinging the trade for Clinton Portis was amazing. Slowly but surely delegating his power to Gibbs and learning to butt out shows signs of growth and maturity. Snyder is learning and in the process becoming a better and better owner. Slowly but surely I have begun to warm up to him more and more. I see the changes he has made in himself and how he operates running the team. These improvements will eventually make him the great owner that you think he is now Art.

But for someone to create so much controversy and make so many mistakes in such a short amount of time is not deserving of the title "great." He has canceled out several of his errors by making good decisions but he has yet to reach the point of greatness. Dan has owned the team for less then 10 years and already you consider him a great owner? Its just impossible to ignore the long term damage Snyder did to this team early on. In time Snyder will be known as a great owner but it will take a little bit more time and a few more good choices.

[tkatz]

Originally posted by RDSKNfaithfull

He would get a job no problem. He is not a G.M. not even close but he is good at scouting. He should be demoted to head of scouting because he is a yes man. Snyder has not put him in a postion to succeed;)

He would get a job no problem? If I remember correctly (and I could be wrong) Cerratto went looking for a job after he was let go by the Redskins for a brief period of time. The only job he could find was as an internet analyst with ESPN. Clearly not many in the NFL value his expertise.

[Rocky21]

Originally posted by GB81

It's quite vexing. We have a "GREAT" owner, and a personnel guy who has done a better job than his counterparts on the Eagles and the Patriots...yet they continue to average 12 wins a year and rattle off playoff victories and we can't seem to get above .500.

If we have a great owner, and we're signing the best possible players...then...

Well, I'm getting caught up in this whole "results" thing...which is really beside the point. Great owner, brilliant personnel guy.

Thanks GB81. Great post. Made me laugh out loud. :cool:

[Neophyte]

Originally posted by RDSKNfaithfull

He would get a job no problem. He is not a G.M. not even close but he is good at scouting. He should be demoted to head of scouting because he is a yes man. Snyder has not put him in a postion to succeed;)

Funny but he did not get much in the way of job offers in the league the year Marty fired him. He worked for ESPN that season until the Danny fired Marty and brought him back.

This is the one unforgivable sin of the Danny. He has recognized personnel problems just about everywhere else in his organization and fixed them but he cannot seem to figure it out with Vinny and fire him.

[tvan]

I trust the decisions that Joe makes and I respect Danny Boy in believing in his coach.

My question or better yet "concern" is.

What about the next guy that wants to cry and throw fits in order to take his $$ and run.

Maybe all future contracts should have a clause that if you request a trade or retire in the middle of the contract all bonuses will be prorated back to the team.

:2cents:

[GB81]

Originally posted by tvan

Maybe all future contracts should have a clause that if you request a trade or retire in the middle of the contract all bonuses will be prorated back to the team.

:2cents:

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that the Player's Union would not take too kindly to that approach, nor would the player being faced with that proposal.

[tvan]

Originally posted by GB81

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that the Player's Union would not take too kindly to that approach, nor would the player being faced with that proposal.

Of coarse you're right....wishful thinking on my part.

I can see it if the team initiats the trade or the player gets hurt but just to do what Coles did is robbery which was my point.

What if others think they can follow suit??

:doh:

[GB81]

Originally posted by tvan

Of coarse you're right....wishful thinking on my part.

I can see it if the team initiats the trade or the player gets hurt but just to do what Coles did is robbery which was my point.

What if others think they can follow suit??

:doh:

I'm sure other teams are frustrated with the Redskins handling of the situation--wishing instead that they had stood strong and made Coles honor his contract, which was clearly the adviseable decision, fiscally. This sets a precendent that isn't good for the league.

Unless you are absolutely convinced that the player is willing to sit out the season, I think you make him play and try to work with and motivate him.

I am aware of Gibbs proclamation that "any one who wants out can get out," but in this era I'm not convinced that the financial repercussions don't outweigh the chemistry ramifications, at some point.

If this policy bears out into wins, then Gibbs is a genius...but essentially wasting $6 million in exchange for a downgrade at the position is quite a sacrifice.

[twist]

Snyder can't be considered a great owner as he has never found a workable head coach for himself (he didn't discover Gibbs, JKC did). The only coach that has gotten any latitude from him is the coach that he Idolised from his youth. Otherwise, he has been responcable for the merry go round of coaching in every single area of the team since he took over as a owner.

This inconsistancy has been the reason for the personel mismatches that nothing but years of consitancy and level headed desisions will fix. If the coaches he has found have failed him, he is the one who picked them. If the players don't fit the scheme because he waffles in selecting coaches from a run oriented attack, to a wide open passing offence, back to a running oriented attack, that is his fault too. It dosen't matter that he tried to get the right players in each of these years, it has simply created problems that are ultimately his fault.

I am never going to say that a man who has to part ways with a disgruntled reciever, after doing a 180 in coaching philosophy is great. Was it the right desision for the team? Yes. Was it a good thing? No. Why wasen't it a good thing? Because Snyder is still paying up for his waffleing, and head coaching desisions.

What the Redskins FO (Snyder) has failed to realise in the past is that long term contracts with big sighning bonuses may help you skirt the cap, but they are incompatable with wide scale philosophical coaching changes.

As far as comparing Snyder to the Eagles and Patriots, Lurie selected a West Coast coach for a west coast offence team, who selected a blitzing defencive guy for a blitzing defencive team. The Patriots took a Parcells defencive co-ordinator to coach a team that Parcells recently took to a superbowl. Sure they give their coach laditude but they certianly did a better job in coach selection in the first place (especially from a coaching philosophy standpoint). You could also look at the results when comparing franchises, strange as that may seem.

So no he isn't a great owner.

[CounterTre]

Art how ya doin bud? Good to see you';re still keeping the faith and fighting the masses over Snyder.

You seem to be the only one I run into that's as thrilled with him as I am. Tye media spin is nothing new and it won't end. it only gets worse now with all of the independent online blogs adding to the fray. It amazes me how little homework most people do and how so many facts conveniently get left out of critical analysis when it doesn't suit the Author's need.

A couple points though....

I can't really agree with your evaluation of Cerratto. I think his impact is minimal and he's basically a yes man gopher for players now but he hasn't exactly impress3d with his resume. There's a reason the only gig he could get when Marty fired him was a broadcast job. There's also a reason he's so reviled in San Fran and it's not illegitemate spin it's track record based.

Like me though you've made up your mind long ago about our Fo so changing it is a patent waste of time. I will say I feel zero need to fire him and bring in a fulltime GM.

Edog...you're missing a major part of the equation in the JKC structure when you talk about his useing a GM with VETO power. In fact that's not true. The GM had the ability to disagree, but the Owner was the only one with HC veto power. JKC settled all disputes, it's a part of why Beathard hit the bricks. So this notion that following JKC's forlumal is some magical pancaea is just flat wrong. If we did then none of you would be happy because Snyder would still hold the veto...something he evidently doesn't as of now. So in essence you're arguing for Snyder to have MORE power in the equation. Ya might want to rethink the whole JKC formula argument.

In addition anyone criticizing JG's talents as GM (we have all of one year to evaluate) are amazingly offbase. The ONLY move he's made that hasn't helped this team signifacantly was Brunell and no one even Brunells biggest critics saw his level of play being as bad as it was. Most folks thought he could at least give us a mediocre performance. No one knew he would crap the bed as bad as he did.

So if Gibbs performance thus far is the basis of the argument for "HIRE A GM!" then you guys are peeing upwind.

Last but not least is to Art,

I saw you list two options and then another person add a third to what we could do with Coles but you both failed to mention what I think we should have done....

Keyshawn his sorry butt! Snyder should have followed through and sent the guy a flat screen. Then on Sunday he could send the guy a case of Coke with a reminder to have a "Coke and a smile and STFU!". This is my first criticism of Gibbs 2.0. Gruden set a precedent more FO's should follow. These rich punk players don't ever feel responsible to actually go out and earn the money they've been payed to play a freaking game. Gruden reminded one of em and it was a sight to behold, I gained massive amounts of respect for him that day.

We caved to Coles...plain and simple. Making him sit would have been a MUCH better option and we could have afforded another WR, Smoot and whatever the heck else we wanted. Being strapped isn't my beef (the fact that we could afford to eat that cap hit speaks volumes about how well Snyder has done with our finaces), the principle of caving to a gigantic crybaby jerkoff is.