The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[sebestian]

10 hours ago, 88Comrade2000 said:

You guys are going to be let down.

 

We probably end up with a 3rd tier guy and give that guy a 3-4 year deal and that will be it. We won't draft a QB this year or next.

 

 

That QB will be mediocre and Ron gets fired after the 23 season.

 

Not to be Debbie downer who would you like to be the next head coach if RR is relieved of his duties

[srtman04]

2 minutes ago, Redskins 2021 said:

Just saw this crazy but I think someone will.

 

I hope it isn't us.  

[Redskins 2021]

1 minute ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

There is no chance of that trade happening.  The Lions were going to do Stafford a solid by sending him to the place he wanted to go.  He wanted to go to LA with Sean.  We literally couldn't have offered what the Rams did because they sent back a starting QB who the new GM had picked.  

 

It's bad luck it happened that way, but those are the breaks.  You can't FORCE a team to accept your trade offer.  

 I agree we probably could not get him at end of the day. You are right we can't force anyone to make a trade with us. It's just frustrating the Stafford trade looks cheap compared to what Qb would cost this year.

[Zim489]

1 minute ago, sebestian said:

Not to be Debbie downer who would you like to be the next head coach if RR is relieved of his duties

Find a GM to hire first. Let that GM find a HC 

[NoCalMike]

The other to keep in mind is there aren't a ton of elite top tier QB's to go around.  After you get outside the Top 5-8 QB's in the NFL there definitely starts to become a talent blend.  There aren't a lot of QB's that barring injury, give you the consistent winning teams season after season, so it's not like the franchise hasn't attempted to figure it out, they just often fail and for a ton of reasons that have already been listed in the thread.

 

I would also say that this franchise has been so QB-deprived for so long that at this point I wonder how it has affected some of the free agent signings we have made that ended up being mediocre or downright failures but can somewhat be attributed to poor play by whoever the QB was.  Those top QB's make those kinds of players better, and while you would still want the big name at the #1 WR spot if possible, some of those top QBs will find ways to get the ball to whoever is out there. 

[sebestian]

1 minute ago, Zim489 said:

Find a GM to hire first. Let that GM find a HC 

The way it should always be. How can we be so contrarian it boggles my mind. 

[Zim489]

9 minutes ago, sebestian said:

The way it should always be. How can we be so contrarian it boggles my mind. 

Cause Dan can sell a Head Coach. He doesn’t think he can sell a GM

[Redskins 2021]

4 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

Cause Dan can sell a Head Coach. He doesn’t think he can sell a GM

I think a gm may not want to work with dan..

 

Also, can D. Carr be franchised next year if he is not resigned.

Edited February 8, 2022 by Redskins 2021

[Zim489]

3 minutes ago, Redskins 2021 said:

think a gm may not want to work with dan..

But a HC does?

[Voice_of_Reason]

7 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

I say it was a screw up. Alex shouldnt have been on the roster. Dwayne should have played more. You know the season and future is bust if you know Dwayne isnt your guy so just ride it out and get your draft pick. 

You can't do that.  If you keep playing a guy everybody in the locker room knows is not trying, it goes against the culture change to accountability and responsibility, and you lose the locker room. The locker room knows.  This is true in every business in the world.  If one guy is a cancer and not pulling his/her weight, everybody knows.  And leadership takes a huge hit if they keep pushing him/her on the other folks.  

 

Alex HAD to be on the roster.  They couldn't cut him for cap reasons, and they couldn't IR him because he wasn't injured.  They went from Dwayne to Kyle to Smith because Dwayne was a locker-room killer, Kyle got hurt.  Once Kyle got hurt, there was no way Ron was putting Dwayne back in.  They COULD have just cut Dwayne after the Ravens game instead of demoting him, and signed TH at that point, since they knew about him and he wasn't doing anything.  But I'm not sure there was enough evidence for that yet.  It wasn't until he had the whole unmasked stripper thing when he had to be cut.    

 

7 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

Which if they bypass QB again this year is likely what they will have to do next year to move into the top 3-5 for one of the QBs. Its a complete lack of understanding of what the position is and the costs associated with it. 

I don't agree with that.  I think they all KNOW what the position is and how badly they need it.  They just couldn't offer more than the Rams.  It wasn't possible with the package they put together, AND Stafford wanted to go to the Rams, and the Lions wanted to do him a solid.  So that's kindof out of play.

 

None of the other QBs were available.  Carr, Wilson, Rodgers, none were available to be traded for.  MAYBE they could have traded for Mariota.  But really, does that solve anything?

 

In the FA market, it was Winston, Mitch and Fitz who were the top 3 guys in the FA class.  Winston stayed in New Orleans, and they chose Fitz over Mitch.  Shrug. 

 

The big question is the draft.  To get from 20 to 11 to pick Fields, the Giants swapped 2021 firsts, and then added a 2021 5th, 2022 1st and 2022 4th.   Let's just make sure we all understand there is no way the Giants are trading with us for a QB at 11.  So you have to get in front of them.  10 was Philly.  Not going to get there either. 9 was Denver, and they were going to pick Patrick Surtain no matter what, so they weren't moving.    

 

So then you're moving from 19 to 8.  We start the bidding with the Bear's deal: #19, a 5th rounder, a 2022 1st and a 2022 4th.  But now you have to get up to a top 10 pick.  So it's more expensive.  I've heard Carolina was asking for 2 additional firsts, so the 2022 and 2023 firsts, in order to move up to #8.  That's just too rich for Justin Fields.  I think if the price had been right, they would have done it. Let's say it takes your 2021 2nd, a 2022 1st and a 2022 3rd.  Do you do that for Fields?  Maybe.  It depends on the grade you have on Fields.  

 

And PLEASE don't give me the revisionist history they should have picked Herbert at 2 instead of Chase Young in 2020.  If they went QB there, it probably would have been Tua.  Chase was the absolutely lock of a pick.  31 other teams would have picked Chase Young in that spot and not thought twice about it.  You could argue they should have traded down and picked up Herbert, but again, they hadn't even seen Haskins on the field yet, or even in a meeting room, because of COVID,  not in 1 practice, so it's tough to give up on a guy who's in-house under those circumstances.  And NOBODY, not even the Chargers, knew Herbert was going to develop as he did.   There were red flags about him coming out.  

 

7 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

Ultimately I think the grand plan was to showcase the entire team to entice one of the elite guys this offseason as being THE PLACE to play. The defense however failed on their end and the coaching staff completely over estimated how good it was. They didnt realize how much help they got by the trash QBs they played in 2020. How they couldnt see the difference in how the defense played in playing Nick Mullins instead of the likes of Matt Stafford escapes me. 

I mean, the grand plan was to try and get Stafford last year and really make a run at it this year.  But it failed when Stafford wanted to go to the Rams and the Rams offered more than we could.  

 

Plan B probably was to draft Fields, but the cost was prohibitive.  At least to them in that moment.  

 

Plan C was Fitz.  Plan C failed due to the fact he was hurt in the first half of the first game. 

 

Then TH played because he wasn't an actual plan, he was the backup who had to play.  

 

Look, you can talk yourself into Ron being an idiot if you want to.  But if you look at what they have tried to do, and take context into account, I think you'll see they tried something in 2021 and will try something else in 2022.  Also, don't forget he took over a 3-13 team and a complete mess of a football operation with Bruce running it for a decade, and the owner's hand picked QB in the building from the 15th pick the year before.  It was a mess of epic proportions.  

 

[Redskins 2021]

Just now, Zim489 said:

But a HC does?

 Probably not, but a proven gm will not

[Conn]

5 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

But a HC does?

A HC can be offered more power here than he’d be allowed elsewhere. A GM will likely have to deal with the owner infringing on his power in a way that wouldn’t happen elsewhere. It’s worth it for the HC to take the payday and the extra power and just do it, even if Snyder interferes sometimes. Top FO guys usually are more likely to wait for just the right situation. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

21 minutes ago, KDawg said:

As long as it isn't us.

If we strike out with Russ/Watson/Rodgers/Watson ...

 

I dunno.  I'd give the 42nd pick for Jimmy with the assumption there's nobody in this draft class who looks like they are going to be a Herbert or better. If there is, I'd go up and get them. 

 

Maybe it's just that I have Post Traumatic Noodle-arm Syndrome, I just can't fathom another year of watching TH try to play NFL QB, (And I don't think Ron or Scott can either) and I don't have a lot of faith in Mitch/Mariota/Winston to be good enough to go from 7 wins to 10 or 11 wins.

 

I could live with Jimmy for a 2 or 3 years if they continue to take shots to find "the guy."  

 

I just don't want to completely punt on this season, and my feeling is if you go Mitch + 2nd round QB, you're just punting the season away.  It's another 6-9 win season of complete mediocrity.  Blah. 

 

I think Jimmy would make us somewhat respectable, and competitive with the Eagles and Cowboys in the division.  And I'll take that over what we've had for a few years.  As long as they keep taking shots in the draft at the next Herbert.  But that shot might not be possible this year.

 

[redskin301]

27 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

Find a GM to hire first. Let that GM find a HC 

Don’t we have like 2 GMs ? 

[sebestian]

5 minutes ago, Conn said:

A HC can be offered more power here than he’d be allowed elsewhere. A GM will likely have to deal with the owner infringing on his power in a way that wouldn’t happen elsewhere. It’s worth it for the HC to take the payday and the extra power and just do it, even if Snyder interferes sometimes. Top FO guys usually are more likely to wait for just the right situation. 

This

1 minute ago, redskin301 said:

Don’t we have like 2 GMs ? 

That’s one two many. 

[mistertim]

30 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

And if it’s us…. 

 

Then it could be the beginning of the end for Ron, especially if we give him a big contract extension. We'll get another couple of years of mediocrity and then have to start over again. I doubt Dan is going to stand for that. 

 

Any self-aware, intelligent and reasonable person would understand that he's basically screwed up over and over in the past, and if he fires a very respected guy like Rivera (along with all of the scandals going on with the team) then he'll have almost zero chance of luring any new coach worth anything, so he should be patient.

 

But Dan has repeatedly shown that he is not self-aware, not very bright, and not even close to reasonable.

[Redskins 2021]

7 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

If we strike out with Russ/Watson/Rodgers/Watson ...

 

I dunno.  I'd give the 42nd pick for Jimmy with the assumption there's nobody in this draft class who looks like they are going to be a Herbert or better. If there is, I'd go up and get them. 

 

Maybe it's just that I have Post Traumatic Noodle-arm Syndrome, I just can't fathom another year of watching TH try to play NFL QB, (And I don't think Ron or Scott can either) and I don't have a lot of faith in Mitch/Mariota/Winston to be good enough to go from 7 wins to 10 or 11 wins.

 

I could live with Jimmy for a 2 or 3 years if they continue to take shots to find "the guy."  

 

I just don't want to completely punt on this season, and my feeling is if you go Mitch + 2nd round QB, you're just punting the season away.  It's another 6-9 win season of complete mediocrity.  Blah. 

 

I think Jimmy would make us somewhat respectable, and competitive with the Eagles and Cowboys in the division.  And I'll take that over what we've had for a few years.  As long as they keep taking shots in the draft at the next Herbert.  But that shot might not be possible this year.

 

 I am ok with JimmyG or Trubisky and second rd pick but I want to be able to have the option to get one of the top vets available next year or one of big 3 rookies coming out next year.

 I think Jimmy G going to want a big 3 or 4 year contract. I think you can get to ten with Trubisky or Winston buy you got to make other moves.

 We can't get Wilson from SEATTLE but we could get B Wagner. Add another receiver A Robonson there a ton available and maybe a cheap running back like M. Ingram that should get us to ten.

Edited February 8, 2022 by Redskins 2021

[Zim489]

3 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

You can't do that.  If you keep playing a guy everybody in the locker room knows is not trying, it goes against the culture change to accountability and responsibility, and you lose the locker room. The locker room knows. 

Most of the Locker room would be gone regardless because of the way the NFL is. 69 players played for us in 2020. 34 players are already gone from that roster. I count another 5-10 being gone come opening day. 

 

And if he does matter thats why you have a split in power of GM and HC. 

 

10 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Alex HAD to be on the roster.  They couldn't cut him for cap reasons, and they couldn't IR him because he wasn't injured

You absolutely could have. If your rebuilding youre worrying about getting your cap ready for the future. The dead cap is worth it to get the 2021 cap into place so you could cut Landon. If we did everything the correct way we'd have our QB of Lance Wilson or Fields with a year of growth and 80 mil in cap and no bad contracts on the books. We'd have so much manuverability and the ability to spend our likely higher draft pick on either trade downs for more picks or the BPA likely a 

 

11 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Look, you can talk yourself into Ron being an idiot if you want to.  But if you look at what they have tried to do, and take context into account, I think you'll see they tried something in 2021 and will try something else in 2022.  Also, don't forget he took over a 3-13 team and a complete mess of a football operation with Bruce running it for a decade, and the owner's hand picked QB in the building from the 15th pick the year before.  It was a mess of epic proportions.

I think everything stems back to him not being aggressive enough in the 2020 offseason gutting the roster and collecting capital for the future. Its the same issue that has bitten us in the ass for 2 decades. A complete inability to rebuild properly. Trying to win now as well as rebuild. You cant half ass two things. Whole ass one thing. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

5 minutes ago, Conn said:

A HC can be offered more power here than he’d be allowed elsewhere. A GM will likely have to deal with the owner infringing on his power in a way that wouldn’t happen elsewhere. It’s worth it for the HC to take the payday and the extra power and just do it, even if Snyder interferes sometimes. Top FO guys usually are more likely to wait for just the right situation. 

Yeah, it should be noted that so far since Ron has been hired, we haven't heard one report of Dan interfering in absolutely anything on the football side.  I'm not saying it hasn't happened, but we haven't heard about it.  And some of the moves Ron has made, they aren't Dan moves.  Hell, Ron even released Haskins without any issue.  Remember when McLoughan AND Jay had to go to Dan just to convince him Cousins should start over Griffin?

 

MAYBE, just MAYBE, Dan has learned his lesson.  If I had to bet, I'd say the interference is lurking and could come back at any moment.  

 

But you can bet your bottom dollar Dan wasn't pushing to draft Jamin Davis last year, sign Fitz, WJIII or Samuel as the big FA gets, etc.  I don't think he would care about any of that.

 

So, I'm hoping against all hope it continues that way.  And Dan doesn't swing in and make a draft pick.  Unless it's Mr. Irrelevant.  Personally, if he wanted to pick Mr. Irrelevant, and it made him feel better, and he knew the name of some random TE from Appalachian state he wanted to draft with the last pick in the draft, I'd be down with that.  (For those that don't get the joke, Dan's son Gerry is a TE at App state.  Just completed his redshirt year.) 

[Skinsinparadise]

21 minutes ago, Redskins 2021 said:

I think a gm may not want to work with dan..

 

 

More on point IMO is when Dan finds his GM, if past is prologue it will be some dude who likely isn't that qualified but Dan can be friends with him and give Dan the needed cover he wants to make his personnel moves in the shadows. 

[mistertim]

1 minute ago, Redskins 2021 said:

 I am ok with JimmyG or Trubisky and second rd pick but I want to be able to have the option to get one of the top vets available next year or one of big 3 rookies coming out next year.

 

A 2nd round pick is ok but we shouldn't kid ourselves about the chances. To me a 2nd round QB comes with an assumption that he won't be a top franchise QB, because it almost never ever happens with QBs picked after the 1st round.

 

Though the worst thing IMO that can happen with a 2nd round guy is that he shows just enough promise so that we waste 2-3 years in the hope that he'll "get it" at some point.

[Zim489]

6 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I could live with Jimmy for a 2 or 3 years if they continue to take shots to find "the guy."  

Ron doesnt and shouldnt be given unlimited time. Hes due an extension after next year. Right now there should be zero reason to extend him. Hes essentially wasted 2 years already and we seem to be staring 3 years in the face with the options we have in front of us. And you want to give him 2 more years on top of that?

 

Where does Ron get and deserve this sort of job security? Sign a Jimmy G and youre going to have angry fans and even more apathy. It shows that this franchise doesnt give two ****s about actually competing for super bowls. 

9 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

And I'll take that over what we've had for a few years.  As long as they keep taking shots in the draft at the next Herbert.

Moves like Jimmy G keep us from being able to take those swings.

 

Do it now with one of the 4-5 at 11. Be right or GTFO Ron. 

[Redskins 2021]

4 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

A 2nd round pick is ok but we shouldn't kid ourselves about the chances. To me a 2nd round QB comes with an assumption that he won't be a top franchise QB, because it almost never ever happens with QBs picked after the 1st round.

 

Though the worst thing IMO that can happen with a 2nd round guy is that he shows just enough promise so that we waste 2-3 years in the hope that he'll "get it" at some point.

 Yeah I agree with the second round thing.

[Zim489]

7 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

More on point IMO is when Dan finds his GM, if past is prologue it will be some dude who likely isn't that qualified but Dan can be friends with him and give Dan the needed cover he wants to make his personnel moves in the shadows. 

I dont agree with Dan being unable to make a GM hire. If a GM gets all the power that a HC has been getting like Ron has been getting, he should be able to hire one of the rising guys. GM jobs open up even less than QB jobs. We almost had gotten Rick Smith as GM before going the Ron route. 

 

 

Dont tell me its not possible. I 1000% wish we went the Rick Smith route.

Edited February 8, 2022 by Zim489

[GilbertSkinsFan]

5 hours ago, MrJL said:

 

guys like Mahomes and Watson make it to around our draft slot this year

I remember sports talk radio guys saying they would not touch Mahomes before round 3 . . . lol . . . at least one of this years crop of QB's will be good!  find the right one!