The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Koolblue13]

[KDawg]

The issue with Wentz coming back (in this hypothetical he plays well the rest of the way and gives us a competitive playoff game/run) is the $26M tag.

[Koolblue13]

38 minutes ago, KDawg said:

The issue with Wentz coming back (in this hypothetical he plays well the rest of the way and gives us a competitive playoff game/run) is the $26M tag.

I feel like we need some kind of shortened disclaimer for Wentz during these talks, because it's going to include his contract and his remaining play and we shouldn't have to need to type it out every time.

[illone]

33 minutes ago, KDawg said:

The issue with Wentz coming back (in this hypothetical he plays well the rest of the way and gives us a competitive playoff game/run) is the $26M tag.

 

 

How much of an issue is that, really?  Seems like a bargain compared to some of the other deals out there that are above $40MM...

 

[Conn]

7 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

I feel like we need some kind of shortened disclaimer for Wentz during these talks, because it's going to include his contract and his remaining play and we shouldn't have to need to type it out every time.

The delegate from the Conn account submits for the committee’s consideration: “if Wentz is good”

[Koolblue13]

1 minute ago, Conn said:

The delegate from the Conn account submits for the committee’s consideration: “if Wentz is good”

and restructures. 

[CjSuAvE22]

Are we gonna resign heinicke? Hes a free agent right?

[zCommander]

2 minutes ago, CjSuAvE22 said:

Are we gonna resign heinicke? Hes a free agent right?

 

Yes. He is going to be the QB coach next year. 

[Skinsinparadise]

I think I mentioned this here, Jay talked about continuity at QB is the way to go everything being equal, discussing some of the possibilites in the off season in a podcast with Standig, the exceptions he made were he'd go get Rodgers if available or Derek Carr, the rest he more or less yawned about.  Not saying he's right or wrong but he's studied our offense all season long, he does a zillion radio segments and podcasts about it. 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 29, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Est.1974]

Adams was nailed on to be pissed about the Carr situation. He’ll be on the way out too.

 

I still don’t like us having Wentz in the game. Pretty sure we have a similar injury/future contract money risk with him.

[MrJL]

6 hours ago, illone said:

 

 

How much of an issue is that, really?  Seems like a bargain compared to some of the other deals out there that are above $40MM...

 

 for a 4-4 at best record, with an injury and a habit of under utilizing the team's best player?

[Skinsinparadise]

What does this mean for Heinicke's future in Washington?

Heinicke will be a free agent after the season. It would not be surprising to see Washington re-sign him. But team sources say the Commanders still view him as a high-quality backup, one who is capable of helping the team win multiple games if he has to play.

But there's another factor: The franchise selected Sam Howell in the fifth round of the 2022 draft and like how he’s developed. Team sources say they liked Howell before the draft and, had they not traded for Wentz last offseason, might have picked him higher. Heinicke’s future here likely is tied more to Howell than Wentz.

It would be hard to let Heinicke walk, however. In the past two years, Washington has gone 12-11-1 when Heinicke starts.

But over the past two seasons, the offense ranks 21st in yards and 25th in points. And in this stretch, the Commanders are 1-11 in games when the opposition scores 24 or more points. In other words: They need more offense and more consistent play at quarterback. It’s why they pursued Wentz last year but were glad Heinicke was still around.

 

How does the move affect the locker room?

Washington’s players have long rallied around Heinicke. However, more than anything, they want to win.

Rivera met with team leaders to gather their input but also to explain why he made the change. As the coach of the Carolina Panthers, Rivera always had Cam Newton and didn’t need to worry about such a decision. But he said he's planned for it over the past year or two in Washington.

There have been years in which Washington lacked strong leadership. That’s not the case this season with McLaurin and defensive tackle Jon Allen, among others.

While teammates respect Heinicke, love his story and respond well to him, they were aware of his shortcomings last season. And those flaws -- arm strength among them -- haven’t changed.

 

https://www.espn.com/blog/washington-commanders/post/_/id/42748/why-the-commanders-turned-back-to-carson-wentz-with-playoffs-at-stake

[Skinsinparadise]

[celticsalmon]

Scott Tuner and Ron Rivera know full well Heinicke's strengths and weaknesses.  But they never placed him in a position to succeed.  Forcing him to stay in the pocket given his size and with a turnstile OL was a strip sack waiting to happen.  Rivera told us earlier this season that he's THE ONE who wanted to trade for Wentz even at expense of addressing the offensive line. Now he has his man.  He will soon find out that he cannot win with a QB not named Cam Newton.

SELL the TEAM!

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

15 minutes ago, celticsalmon said:

 

Scott Tuner and Ron Rivera know full well Heinicke's strengths and weaknesses.  But they never placed him in a position to succeed.

 

Totally.

 

While the rest of the NFL was clamoring for a shot to get Taylor to retire from couch surfing, Scott got lucky that Taylor preferred his offense to the other 31 that were bidding for his services.  But he’s just too stupid to design an offense that hands it off 50 times a game instead of 40 to truly utilize his strengths.

[Skinsinparadise]

Listening to Keim, not much new.  for me the interesting points.

 

A.  Keim like me is really focused on Wentz's lack of mobility this season.  He said he heard from the team that he wasn't 100%, had some ankle issue that they believe has healed. I guess will see.  For me its major plot line.  If he moves like he moved earlier this season, IMO that's "meh".

 

B.  Sounds like he's not sure Heinicke is back next season

 

C.  Wentz on the table to return if he plays well.  Clearly that's an obvious point.

 

In short this team thinks Wentz will look better than earlier this season.

Edited December 29, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[KDawg]

41 minutes ago, celticsalmon said:

Scott Tuner and Ron Rivera know full well Heinicke's strengths and weaknesses.  But they never placed him in a position to succeed.  Forcing him to stay in the pocket given his size and with a turnstile OL was a strip sack waiting to happen.  Rivera told us earlier this season that he's THE ONE who wanted to trade for Wentz even at expense of addressing the offensive line. Now he has his man.  He will soon find out that he cannot win with a QB not named Cam Newton.

SELL the TEAM!

Well this is an issue, because he isn’t very good on designed roll outs, either. So what pass plays do you call with him? Just play action?

Edited December 29, 2022 by KDawg

[Skinsinparadise]

17 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Totally.

 

While the rest of the NFL was clamoring for a shot to get Taylor to retire from couch surfing, Scott got lucky that Taylor preferred his offense to the other 31 that were bidding for his services.  But he’s just too stupid to design an offense that hands it off 50 times a game instead of 40 to truly utilize his strengths.

 

yeah.  He threw 18 times against SF.  He typically throws in the 20s.  Wentz was throwing 40 times game after game after game.

 

They made it as easy as it gets for Taylor -- dude just score 18 points and you likely win.  And don't worry even to do that, your running game will lead the way, the opposing defenses will stack the box with 8 men so your receivers should be free.

4 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Well this is an issue, because he isn’t very good on designed roll outs, either. So what pass plays do you call with him? Just play action?

 

He's not that hot with quick outs in the flat either IMO, he telegraphs the throw, they are slow moving plays and the WRs typically get leveled.

 

He majors in shallow crossers, mesh routes.  And majors in yolo throws down the field when the game is on the line.

 

Apparently according to some in the know, he's not hot with RPOs or RO.

Edited December 29, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Conn]

5 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Well this is an issue, because he isn’t very good on designed roll outs, either. So what pass plays do you call with him? Just play action?

It’s coaching malpractice that we don’t call more of those refs-running-into-each-other-at-the-goal-line plays, imo

[DJHJR86]

5 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

He typically throws in the 20s.  Wentz was throwing 40 times game after game after game.

 

Wentz is 5-2 in his career when he's thrown the ball 22 times or less in a game.  

[Skinsinparadise]

Reading between the lines, Keim didn't flat out say this but its not hard to piece it together

 

A.  If they continue to like how Howell progresses it jeopardizes Heinicke's return.

 

B.  If Wentz plays well, he's back, if not they will go shopping again.  Keim mentioned Carr twice in that segment -- he didn't they are chasing him, but used him in hypotheticals 

2 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

Wentz is 5-2 in his career when he's thrown the ball 22 times or less in a game.  

 

OK that should be a good thing relating to this offense, right I assume that's why you made the point.

Edited December 29, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[DJHJR86]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2022/12/28/carson-wentz-commanders-quarterback/

 

That doesn’t cut it, and there’s now enough evidence that Wentz won’t magically change it. Oh, the quarterbacks above? QB A — the one with the (slightly) lower touchdown percentage, higher interception and sack rates, lower passer rating and QBR? That’s Wentz. For all his appeal, Heinicke has shown he’s not a franchise quarterback. Wentz has similar (or worse) stats — and he somehow is? Nope. No way.

 

It makes sense to turn back to Wentz against Cleveland because Heinicke has followed his magical run by going 0-2-1 and turning the ball over too frequently. But tread lightly here. Maybe there’s a way for the defense to lift the team to victories over the Browns and the Cowboys and to fight for a playoff win — and for Wentz to be more passenger than pilot, which could make moving on from him in the offseason a bit easier. Could.

 

Such a tough spot. If Wentz plays well, is he back in 2023? Is that what the Commanders and their fans should want? The answers may well be “yes” to the first and “no” to the second, which would keep the Commanders right where they have been for what seems like eternity: looking for a franchise quarterback, again and again and again.

[Skinsinparadise]

Washington gave up two third-round picks and swapped second-round picks last season to acquire Wentz from Indianapolis. The Commanders also absorbed his $28 million cap hit in 2022. While it wasn’t an exorbitant price, it was costly enough to suggest they viewed him as more than a one-year experiment.

However, Wentz has no more guaranteed money over the final two years of his deal. That means Washington could cut him without any cap penalty. But team sources say the Commanders would prefer not to look for another quarterback this offseason.

If Wentz plays well -- winning the last two games and, perhaps, one in the playoffs -- then Washington could extend him, lowering his $26.7 million cap hit in 2023.

Wentz has started six games this season, so the Commanders need to see more. That’s not the primary reason they made this move, but it is one aspect of the decision.

 

https://www.espn.com/blog/washington-commanders/post/_/id/42748/why-the-commanders-turned-back-to-carson-wentz-with-playoffs-at-stake

[Skinsinparadise]

With the Wentz naysayer crowd, and I am closer to being a naysayer than not.     I don't get the litigating in advance.  This is the perfect storm to see one way or another.

 

My main issue with Wentz is can he play big in big games and can he move better than what he looked earlier this season.   We are about to see both.

 

The idea that even a veteran QB struggles with a new system which Jay Gruden articulated well in a recent podcast is on display throughout the NFL this season.  Mac Jones' regression, Russell Wilson, Matt Ryan, Carson, etc.  Some say its just because they suck.   Maybe.  But the idea of a QB mastering a new system might struggle isn't some wild newfangled observation.

 

Also, we seem to be playing now like the Colts diid last year where Wentz played much better.  Run first offense.

 

Do I think Wentz kills it now?  I suspect not.  But I try to be open minded.  Lets see. 

Edited December 29, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

My gut says Wentz plays pretty well this weekend, which will create a lot of hot takes.  
 

Then we’ll play the Cowboys, who will be very grabby at the LOS delaying routes, causing Wentz to hold the ball too long and eat sacks, which will create an entirely different set of hot takes.

 

And round and round we go…

Edited December 29, 2022 by BatteredFanSyndrome