The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[DogofWar1]

Would we even want Daniels to bulk up to 225?

 

Like people have been saying, LSU is no slouch at nutrition and training.  And of course Daniels had 3 months from the end of the season to his pro day to bulk up.

 

I'm going to guess at some point they realized the mobility/speed decreases were outweighing the increases in strength/bulk and they settled on 210 as the best place to land.

[Warhead36]

3 minutes ago, DogofWar1 said:

Would we even want Daniels to bulk up to 225?

 

Like people have been saying, LSU is no slouch at nutrition and training.  And of course Daniels had 3 months from the end of the season to his pro day to bulk up.

 

I'm going to guess at some point they realized the mobility/speed decreases were outweighing the increases in strength/bulk and they settled on 210 as the best place to land.

My issue is that I don't even think he's actually really 210. 210 would be fine. His legitimate actual real playing weight is probably closer to 190 ish. If he were 210 he'd have had no issue weighting in at the combine.

 

I don't know the more I watch/read the more the kid just looks like a fugazi QB. 

[kingdaddy]

2 minutes ago, DogofWar1 said:

Would we even want Daniels to bulk up to 225?

 

Like people have been saying, LSU is no slouch at nutrition and training.  And of course Daniels had 3 months from the end of the season to his pro day to bulk up.

 

I'm going to guess at some point they realized the mobility/speed decreases were outweighing the increases in strength/bulk and they settled on 210 as the best place to land.

Randall Cunningham 6'4, 216 lbs

Jayden Daniels          6'4  210 lbs

Josh Allen                   6'5  238 lbs

Drake Maye                6'4    229 lbs

[DogofWar1]

3 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Every advanced metric says take Maye. He's also younger, bigger/stronger, has a much better arm, actually had to carry his college team, and plays a style more conducive to NFL football.

 

Its mind boggling to me that a supposed smart new regime would take Daniels.

 

It's probably reading into it too far, because I don't expect Maye to get past 3, and would be flabbergasted if he went past 4, so a drop from 2 to 4 isn't huge, BUT I could see Maye as a cautionary tale of staying loyal to your ****ty college program vs transferring to a better place.

 

I keep thinking about how different this debate is if Maye's receivers didn't drop the ball at a wayyyy above national average rate at 8.2%.  If they just dropped the ball at 4.2%, which iirc is roughly the national average, Maye's stat line would look something like:

 

286/425, 67.3% comp, 3825 yards passing, 9.0 Y/A av., 27 TDs to 9 INTs.

 

Those drops robbed him of a 65+% completion rate and an above 9.0 Y/A av

 

If I'm a breakout sophomore in some second tier school that looks a little talent depleted, trying to decide to stick with that school or go somewhere with bigger/better weapons, and Daniels who DID transfer goes 2 while Maye who didn't went a few picks later, I probably transfer.

[ntotoro]

5 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

Think of Tiger Woods....it just takes dedication to the weight room and a commitment to following a training program. It can be done. 

He didn't have to worry about the athleticism that a mobile QB does. He also started to rack up injuries after he tried to put on more muscle than his frame could handle. He didn't train like a golfer, he tried to train like a bodybuilder. Things domino quickly when you have imbalances in your physique.

 

The adult male can maybe put on 35-40lbs of muscle naturally in a lifetime of progressive resistance training. 20-25lbs in a couple years is not happening without PED's or gaining a lot of fat to go along with it. Gaining fat will hurt your game. PED's on a physique that is already fusilli held together with dental floss is a one-way ticket to an orthopedic surgeon from weakening tendons and ligaments. 
 

These guys both have shortcomings. Maye is relatively raw and has a windup that makes Jason Campbell blush (I'd say he's better thinking on his feet than Campbell, though). Daniels is constructed like one of those kites you buy at People's Drug Store as a kid and no amount of gym time can change that. 

[Warhead36]

1 minute ago, DogofWar1 said:

 

It's probably reading into it too far, because I don't expect Maye to get past 3, and would be flabbergasted if he went past 4, so a drop from 2 to 4 isn't huge, BUT I could see Maye as a cautionary tale of staying loyal to your ****ty college program vs transferring to a better place.

 

I keep thinking about how different this debate is if Maye's receivers didn't drop the ball at a wayyyy above national average rate at 8.2%.  If they just dropped the ball at 4.2%, which iirc is roughly the national average, Maye's stat line would look something like:

 

286/425, 67.3% comp, 3825 yards passing, 9.0 Y/A av., 27 TDs to 9 INTs.

 

Those drops robbed him of a 65+% completion rate and an above 9.0 Y/A av

 

If I'm a breakout sophomore in some second tier school that looks a little talent depleted, trying to decide to stick with that school or go somewhere with bigger/better weapons, and Daniels who DID transfer goes 2 while Maye who didn't went a few picks later, I probably transfer.

On the other hand a FO that knows what its doing will see it as a positive.

 

1. He stuck around because he was loyal to his school and team and didn't just jump at the first opportunity for greener pastures. You want your QB to be loyal and be a real leader like that.

 

2. He still made some consistently great throws. Not his fault the team around him was dog doo doo. If I'm Peters I'm thinking: "I can have THAT guy throwing to McLaurin, Dotson, Ertz, Ekeleer, and whomever else we draft? Yeah, that works."

[ntotoro]

3 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

Randall Cunningham 6'4, 216 lbs

Jayden Daniels          6'4  210 lbs

Josh Allen                   6'5  238 lbs

Drake Maye                6'4    229 lbs

It's not just the weight, it's the construction of their physiques. Cunningham didn't have a ton of muscle, but was built differently. I don't believe Daniels will actually play at 210. I don't think anyone does. Even so, he's basically a bigger RG3, who didn't even make it one season in one piece.

[Warhead36]

2 minutes ago, ntotoro said:

 

These guys both have shortcomings. Maye is relatively raw and has a windup that makes Jason Campbell blush (I'd say he's better thinking on his feet than Campbell, though). Daniels is constructed like one of those kites you buy at People's Drug Store as a kid and no amount of gym time can change that. 

I don't think Maye's windup is that slow. He does let the ball dip low, but he generates so much force that way that the ball just flies out of his hand. I don't see his release as being an issue besides some minor polishing/cleaning up that every young prospect requires.

[kingdaddy]

If you all recall, one of the things that made Randall Cunningham so great was his flexibility, athleticism and escapability because of his frame, quickness. Remember the famous shot he took from Carl Banks and he stayed on his feet to throw a TD on MNF? I see Randall as a good comp for Daniels. 

Also, if you look at Ben Roethlisberger's injury chart he's had as many as any QB in league history, possibly because of his big frame and willingness to take hits. 

[DogofWar1]

1 minute ago, kingdaddy said:

Randall Cunningham 6'4, 216 lbs

Jayden Daniels          6'4  210 lbs

Josh Allen                   6'5  238 lbs

Drake Maye                6'4    229 lbs

 

Different people have different frames that can support different weights before they start to either lose mobility (too much muscle bulk) or start going the JaMarcus route of putting all that weight in the belly.

 

Neither is great for mobility, though the former is gonna impact his throwing more (muscles upstairs changing throwing motion), while the latter is gonna impact his speed.

 

Drake Maye is pretty mobile and plays at his 223-229 weight, but he's obviously no Daniels.

 

If Daniels bulked up to 225, would be now move like Drake, ie a likely 4.6-40 and decently mobile BUT less shifty than before and lacking afterburners?  That basically destroys his biggest WOW asset.

 

I strongly suspect Daniels at 225 would prove to decrease his ceiling in mobility and negatively impact his overall game.  He looked pretty darn ripped at his pro day at 210, can he really another 15 pounds without negative effects? Probably not.

 

6 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

My issue is that I don't even think he's actually really 210. 210 would be fine. His legitimate actual real playing weight is probably closer to 190 ish. If he were 210 he'd have had no issue weighting in at the combine.

 

I don't know the more I watch/read the more the kid just looks like a fugazi QB. 

 

I mean looking at his muscles at his pro day, I do think he was truly 210; I don't think he had IV fluids or anything.  Maybe he did but the evidence suggests he was a true 210.

 

But yes, he almost certainly played this year much lighter, you can just see it in the tape vs his body at his pro day.

 

But this is the kind of thing you figure at at your all 30 meeting.  Stick a scale under the rug and after he takes a bathroom break find out for sure.

5 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

I don't think Maye's windup is that slow. He does let the ball dip low, but he generates so much force that way that the ball just flies out of his hand. I don't see his release as being an issue besides some minor polishing/cleaning up that every young prospect requires.

 

Yup, Maye varies his throwing motion speed.  Like if you watch some plays where he's about to get hammered he zips the ball out in an instant.  When he's chillin he does take a while, but that's cause he's chillin.

 

I think a coach could get him to clean that up, because he CAN throw it fast, he just doesn't always do so.  Kind of like his footwork, he CAN have good footwork, it's just inconsistent.

 

It's actually interesting, his footwork gets worse the more he's under pressure but his release speed gets faster the more under pressure he is.

[CommanderInTheRye]

16 hours ago, BMagic said:

Stack up draft picks to get multiple bites at the apple.

 

 

This!!  One thousand percent THIS!!!

 

Every draft pick is a roll of the dice, but drafting a qb is even more of a gamble.

 

No matter how universally praised or questioned a college qb is by draft experts (Kiper types), talking radio heads (Sheehan types), carnival barkers (the Stephen A Smith's of the world), flim flam scam artists (Skip Bayless types), old school high integrity reporters (Keim, Schefter, Breer etc.),  picking one and projecting NFL performance is at best an educated guess with your fingers crossed that you got it right.

 

Anybody can fail at the position of qb and the Kurt Warner's and Brock Purdie's of the world, prove that anyone can beat the odds and succeed, despite expert opinion.

 

Finding the right qb is part science, part art, part luck, with maybe even a toad's leg worth of voo doo added in fir goid measure.

 

The best way to increase your odds of long term success is to continue to bring them into your organization, until you get it right--- and even then he super smart, beyond the curve teams keep drafting them (ex. Eagles drafting Hurts when they already had Wentz).

 

To do that regularly takes draft capital, tons of it, because most rookie qbs fail. Full stop.

 

This is why if I were Peters one of my main goals in the draft would be to come out of it with additional high draft pick(s) in future year(s).

 

Hopefully, they get it right with their first shot in 12 days and we're set for a decade or more.

 

But history tells us that no matter who we draft, it's highly likely they fail.

 

 

 

gg

 

 

 

Confuse-us say, "One who eats big apple must take lots of bites."

 

 

 

Edited April 14 by CommanderInTheRye

[DogofWar1]

9 minutes ago, ntotoro said:

It's not just the weight, it's the construction of their physiques. Cunningham didn't have a ton of muscle, but was built differently. I don't believe Daniels will actually play at 210. I don't think anyone does. Even so, he's basically a bigger RG3, who didn't even make it one season in one piece.

 

Important distinction (though I'm sure you meant this), he's a "taller" RG3.  RG3 was 222 at 6'2"ish.

 

Indeed, RG3 is one of the rare guys whose weight decreased, as at some point thru his career his weight went from his draft weight of 222 to a final weight of about 212.

[HTTRDynasty]

 

[HTTRDynasty]

Get Daniels his old teammate?

 

 

[Llevron]

Some of these stats are really silly to me 

[CommanderInTheRye]

15 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

Get Daniels his old teammate?

 

 

 

 

Reading this at the supermarket I spontaneously yelled, "Aiyuk! Auiuk! Aiyuk!"

 

Random passerby says, "Gesundheit."

 

OK, now that my mandatory bad Sunday grampa joke is out of the way on to my post...

 

 

 

I say do this stat! Perfect fit for Daniels, but he's a perfect fit for Maye too!

 

Just get him on board and we've got a terrifying wr core any rookie qb would die for.

 

Now the  question is how much will it cost to get him?

 

 

Edited April 14 by CommanderInTheRye

[HTTRDynasty]

3 minutes ago, CommanderInTheRye said:

 

 

Reading this at the supermarket I spontaneously yelled, "Aiyuk! Auiuk! Aiyuk!"

 

Random passerby says, "Gesundheit."

 

OK, now that my mandatory bad Sunday grampa joke is out of the way on to my post...

 

 

 

I say do this stat! Perfect fit for Daniels, but he's a perfect fit for Maye too!

 

Just get him on board and we've got a terrifying wr core any rookie would die for.

 

Now the  question is how much will it cost to get him?

 

 

The good thing is that if anyone from outside the Niners org knows his actual worth, it would be Peters. 
 

If we draft Daniels, we need to be as aggressive as possible surrounding him with great WRs. This would get us most of the way there. 

[skinsfan66]

11 hours ago, CobraCommander said:

I seem to recall people saying the same thing about RG3. Something about bringing in baseball coach to teach him how to slide.

My PTSD will not allow me to think this will be any different 

Was Cooley on the RG3 band wagon?

[skinsfan66]

11 hours ago, Llevron said:

RG3 could read a defense. Ever. This other guy can. He really doesn’t have to run. He does and is gonna kill teams with it, but he doesn’t have to. Running WAS griffins game and he was determined to do it. Until he couldn’t. 
 

Edit - Not. RG3 could not. Lol

And the top media all keep saying, he can make all the throws, before the draft, only they keep showing the same throw. 

[The Consigliere]

14 hours ago, Llevron said:

Right? Like simple facts about his game. Can he go through his reads or not? Coaches, execs, past QBs everybody saying yea and he excels at it. Here? No but he can run fast if you are into that. 
 

****s silly 

It's not. There's a rich bountiful vein of evidence that Daniels has an extensive collection of traits associated with higher risk of busting, and probably the single best example of this, and it was already quoted a few pages back is how often (always) when NFL exec's are asked about Daniels, they refer EXCLUSIVELY to his 5th year metrics, not his career, his fifth year metrics, whether its about deep ball compeltion as that tweeter mentioned, or people habitually acknowledging only Daniels 2023 pressure to sack ratio, while ignore 2019-2022. They are all using magic erasers, pretending he played one year, to Maye's 2, it's absurd, period. If all I had to look at was his '23 season, and he was 21 instead of turning 24 at the end of the year, 75%-80% of my concerns would be washed away, but those arguments are bull---, and nonsense. He played 5 years of college football, not 3, he's gonna turn 24 this year, not 22, and his prior seasons are vastly inferior to his '23. Why these people aren't familiar with concepts like outlier seasons, and supporting casts changing production #'s is utterly beyond me. 

 

And this isn't even a case, again, of me thinking he sucks, it's me thinking he has an absolute litany of warning signs and in key traits, and metrics, that should alarm the ---- out of anyone. Quinn comes across as an idiot in those quotes. Not great. It reminds me of ripping the Raiders for being raging morons for taking Ruggs over Lamb in '20. It wasn't that Ruggs was a dog---- prospect, and was guaranteed to suck. He wasn't, but he was not remotely The #1 WR prospect in any world and the raiders were idiots for taking him over Lamb, car crash or not, fit or not. It was raging stupidity, but NFL teams habitually try to address, fit, or particular needs even with high order fit, instead of fixating on talent first. Ruggs even in a best case scenario was not gonna be the player Lamb was, and fit or skill should've been immaterial, but it wasn't, and so they took a vastly inferior talent. Kinda feels like that is happening again here, they've fixated on some things they like, and they are again a forest for the trees argument.

 

I should add that someone mentioned that fears with Maye could include something as simple as this dude becomes Wentz, which was an intriguing counter. He is a nice counter of a traits, tools guy like Maye failing, but I'd make one particularly relevant counter argument to that. Part of the reason Wentz has flamed out, beyond just not becoming the QB talent that was hoped is Wentz's personality, and mental make up. He's not a leader, he's not great for the locker room, he's not an ideal fit for a team's "personality" as its leader by any stretch and by all accounts, Maye and JJ have by far the best mental makeup temperament/personality for team fits of the big 4 QB's expected to go early. I think Wentz's career would have gone reasonably differently if he wasn't viewed as a locker room problem. No such concerns with Maye. 

Edited April 14 by The Consigliere

[skinsfan66]

10 hours ago, WashingtonRedWolves said:

He’s never had access to NFL level PEDs- i mean trainers and nutritionists

Did he really play at 210 this year? I have my doubt's. 

[Est.1974]

36 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

Get Daniels his old teammate?

 

 

Jax were heavily linked with him at the start of FA too.

28 minutes ago, CommanderInTheRye said:

 

Now the  question is how much will it cost to get him?

Jon Allen and an exchange of picks in some form.

[Est.1974]

13 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Agree.  It feels awesome.  i do believe we deserve and earned the positive karma.  Perfect draft to tank for a change.

 

Plenty are high on both QBs.  I was listening to Cooley as I was picking up food tonight and was stoked to see how high he was on Daniels and he hinted that he expects to be high on Maye too.  I find it exciting.  We've been in the QB wilderness forever.  I don't buy there is only one answer for this spot.

For all of the recent noise, if I was pushed for an answer right now, I’d still ‘guess’ this FO preferred Maye over Daniels.

[skinsfan66]

1 hour ago, kingdaddy said:

If you all recall, one of the things that made Randall Cunningham so great was his flexibility, athleticism and escapability because of his frame, quickness. Remember the famous shot he took from Carl Banks and he stayed on his feet to throw a TD on MNF? I see Randall as a good comp for Daniels. 

Also, if you look at Ben Roethlisberger's injury chart he's had as many as any QB in league history, possibly because of his big frame and willingness to take hits. 

Randall/light was who I was thinking too, body wise.  But I do not see the same escape ability maybe a little faster, good in the open field but not in tight quarters. Not nearly as tuff.  Also Ben won S.B.'s Randall did not. Daniels is not going to stay in the pocket and take the hit, is my thinking. 

Edited April 14 by skinsfan66

[The Consigliere]

13 hours ago, Llevron said:

Right. That’s the best version of him. It’s why the argument that his potential is so so much lower than the others is absurd. If he continues progressing as a passer and just manages the offense with his athleticism….it’s going to be hard to stop. 
 

I see Daniels and I think of Vicks Monday night Massacre. Vick torched us in every facet. He has that kind of potential. May never see it. But it’s worth thinking about and I can imagine thinking you can get something similar out of him consistently. 
 

It’s also, while I like Mayes youth and potential, why his age doesn’t bother me as much as it did. He has the reps and no injury history AND from what we can see few bad habits. It’s hard to get that in the NFL. 55 starts is a hell of a leg up when put into context. 

We literally couldn’t have planned a better time to almost have the worst record. Any other season the runner up prize in the draft is basically Jason Campbell with legs. Not this time. And we have our choice? It’s almost unfair. 
 

We ****ing deserve it lol 

Mmmm, in '17 we could have gotten Mahomes, in '18 we could have gotten Allen, in '20 we could have gotten Herbert, in '21 Fields. I am ecstatic we finally got tanking for right for the first time in decades, ecstatic. I'm not so ecstatic that the rumors feel like we're gonna take the riskiest of the options. Otoh, that would have given us a huge hit in '18 and '20 so maybe they're right this time. I remain skeptical.