The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[mistertim]

4 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

The notion of "Super Bowl or bust" doesn't entirely capture your perspectives expressed over the last couple of seasons, but that's something for you to address.

 

Relying on a Super Bowl as a crux weakens about 95% of debates to support your viewpoint.

 

Disregarding an MVP is notable; it seems there are blinders on when it comes to evaluating Jackson.

 

Do you think winning an MVP award is more meaningful than playing well in big postseason games and being able to win a SB?

 

My perspectives have been that he's not worth the money. I still don't think he is. And to be honest, the whole MVP thing this year is a bit odd. He started out super hot, cooled down, ended the regular season mediocre and then failed in the postseason. Even with his running, he still accounted for less than 30 TDs. How that is good enough for an MVP I'm not sure.

 

I have to assume they're basing it on his early season performances.

Edited January 29 by mistertim

[The Consigliere]

2 hours ago, ThatNFLChick said:

Goff to me is an elevated Tua. Neither have elite traits but Goff is smart. You can win with them but they're not going to win the game for you if that makes sense. Both need a very good team around them to be successful but Goff doesn't need quite as much and can run a system and adapt to a system better. 

 

Trying to find #'s on if he's improved with his achilles heel (handling pressure), but his catchable pass rate when under pressure via player profiler was 28th, and completion rate was 20th, so it still looks like a major issue. 

[Warhead36]

Honestly Tyreek or CMac should have won MVP this year.

[Est.1974]

1 hour ago, Warhead36 said:

My dream is our FO stays steadfast with Maye but we convince the world we love Daniels and can fleece the Pats into a pick swap so they can take him. We get the best of both worlds, Maye and some extra picks to play with.

 

Stays steadfast with Maye ? How do you know Maye is our guy ?

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

38 minutes ago, Hooper said:

 

This. 100 percent. It is so hard.  Most of the time the plays are being sent in from the sidelines. And they're in shotgun all the time.  It's nuts.

 

 

 

The plays are generally being called after the defense sets up so you literally have coaches calling the audibles making the one read even easier.

 

Also, about two years ago, I went into a deep dive on how college hash marks were not designed with the idea that teams would throw 60 passes a game into the flat. Once you understand this, you begin to understand that playing defense in college is borderline impossible unless you are able to do with Alabama. Georgia, and Clemson have done in recent years and generate insane levels of pressure with 4 linemen.

[Warhead36]

7 minutes ago, Est.1974 said:

Stays steadfast with Maye ? How do you know Maye is our guy ?

That's why I said my dream.

[pico926]

1 hour ago, clskinsfan said:

 

Multiple incompletions in a highlight reel?? 🤣

[Warhead36]

15 minutes ago, pico926 said:

Multiple incompletions in a highlight reel?? 🤣

Its not a highlight reel. Its cut ups of some really good, NFL caliber throws. If the read and throw is perfect but the WR doesn't catch it, that's not on the QB.

[clskinsfan]

23 minutes ago, pico926 said:

Multiple incompletions in a highlight reel?? 🤣

Not his fault his WR's couldnt catch.

[pico926]

20 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Its not a highlight reel. Its cut ups of some really good, NFL caliber throws. If the read and throw is perfect but the WR doesn't catch it, that's not on the QB.

All vertical routes (9 and 8 routes), no tight window throws, not much processing going on. What makes these really good, NFL caliber throws. The circus throw to the receiver while being tackled is nice but that's about all that jumped out to me. Everything else looked pretty standard.

[Koolblue13]

1 hour ago, The Consigliere said:

Evans is too old. Same class as OBJ and Allen Robinson. Don't pay for his elite past. They could trade up, though it's a nice WR draft, they might be able to sit. The problem for them is the tier break will happen well ahead of their break, and the next tier is kind of clumpy and spotty with significantly lower floors. I wonder if they could trade for a team that's kind of trapped, or just go after Tee Higgins in FA or something, but Higgins isn't an explosion guy, that's more Metcalf, Garrett Wilson etc. Hmmm, wonder what they do, minor tweaks tend to be their moves. Not a lot they can do to move the needle unless they really want to take a huge swing on a FA RB (always a mistake), or trade for a WR. 

They need a guy who is going to be 10 yards from the LoS that is going to catch a ball with two guys on him, no matter what. That's still Evans. 

 

Sure, they need to build for the future, like everyone else, but they need someone to get them past the chiefs next year, too.

[FootballZombie]

Interesting tidbit in the last couple of cut-ups of Maye.

When he speeds up his mechanics he stops stepping and starts hopping.

 

He goes from steps - to happy feet - to bunny hops. I'm not talking about a hop to snap the body into throwing position either, I'm talking maneuvering in the pocket via hops. Its something you only really only see from the short QBs. Not sure if the hopping thing is good/bad ultimately, it could be a vestige from when he was not 6'4.

 

In the end, It probably don't mean much. Maye has to do a lot of work involving his mechanics at the next level anyways so it can be eliminated if need be w/ coaching and practice. It it is certainly different to look at tho for a guy his height.

[pico926]

https://commanderswire.usatoday.com/2024/01/28/2024-nfl-draft-washington-commanders-logan-paulsen-drake-maye-jayden-daniels/

 

Logan likes Daniels over Maye for some of the same reasons others on this board have raised. Note that Logan, who does a solid job breaking down film, noted that Daniels made "tight window throws" and "throws with anticipation" against the likes of Alabama and Florida. Many on this board says he can't make these throws yet Logan specifically calls is out. I personally lean towards Logan's expert eye on this and will continue to call BS on folks stating that he can't or hasn't demonstrated the ability.

[mistertim]

3 minutes ago, pico926 said:

https://commanderswire.usatoday.com/2024/01/28/2024-nfl-draft-washington-commanders-logan-paulsen-drake-maye-jayden-daniels/

 

Logan likes Daniels over Maye for some of the same reasons others on this board have raised. Note that Logan, who does a solid job breaking down film, noted that Daniels made "tight window throws" and "throws with anticipation" against the likes of Alabama and Florida. Many on this board says he can't make these throws yet Logan specifically calls is out. I personally lean towards Logan's expert eye on this and will continue to call BS on folks stating that he can't or hasn't demonstrated the ability.

 

  Oh please. You lean towards whoever you can find that agrees with you.

 

I should have my timestamps ready for that all-22 within a day or two. I look forward to chatting about it and comparing with your timestamps.

Edited January 29 by mistertim

[pico926]

Just now, mistertim said:

 

  Oh please. You lean towards whoever you can find that agrees with you.

Well true. It is a bit of validation coming from the likes of Logan Paulsen though isn't it?

[mistertim]

Just now, pico926 said:

Well true. It is a bit of validation coming from the likes of Logan Paulsen though isn't it?

 

Why? I like Logan, and he does a decent job, but he's not a QB coach or OC any more than any other player who became an analyst later. 

 

Again, we can compare notes on your all-22 film within a day or two if that works for you. That should give us a better idea of where we see things the same or differently. 

[mac8887]

2 minutes ago, pico926 said:

Well true. It is a bit of validation coming from the likes of Logan Paulsen though isn't it?

I like daniels but logan was telling everyone how great sam howells farts tasted pretty much all year. He definitely wasn't right about howell

[pico926]

2 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Why? I like Logan, and he does a decent job, but he's not a QB coach or OC any more than any other player who became an analyst later. 

 

Again, we can compare notes on your all-22 film within a day or two if that works for you. That should give us a better idea of where we see things the same or differently. 

We can however bias can and most likely will leak in. We do have a neutral party in Logan Paulsen who, most likely, has no bias clearly stating that he throws in tight windows with anticipation. This kind of trumps our exercise but happy to oblige. 

2 minutes ago, mac8887 said:

I like daniels but logan was telling everyone how great sam howells farts tasted pretty much all year. He definitely wasn't right about howell

Looking at film and stating that someone is throwing into tight windows and with anticipation is what the eye sees. Different from praising someone as the best thing since sliced bread. 

[mistertim]

3 minutes ago, pico926 said:

We can however bias can and most likely will leak in. We do have a neutral party in Logan Paulsen who, most likely, has no bias clearly stating that he throws in tight windows with anticipation. This kind of trumps our exercise but happy to oblige. 

 

Looking at film and stating that someone is throwing into tight windows and with anticipation is what the eye sees. Different from praising someone as the best thing since sliced bread. 

 

Well the bottom portion of this sort of negates the top portion. Because the bottom portion clearly shows that a former NFL player can have bias when he likes a guy (Howell) that an lead him to overlook deficiencies. So why wouldn't some bias be able to creep in if he has a new guy he likes (Daniels)?

[mac8887]

2 minutes ago, pico926 said:

 

Looking at film and stating that someone is throwing into tight windows and with anticipation is what the eye sees. Different from praising someone as the best thing since sliced bread. 

I agree daniels throws with anticipation and in tight windows just fine, I don't understand the ones who say they know he struggles with that. But Logan is not one I'd use to defend my point, especially with how wrong he was with howell

[FootballZombie]

3 minutes ago, pico926 said:

 noted that Daniels made "tight window throws" and "throws with anticipation" against the likes of Alabama and Florida. Many on this board says he can't make these throws yet Logan specifically calls is out. I personally lean towards Logan's expert eye on this and will continue to call BS on folks stating that he can't or hasn't demonstrated the ability.

 

I think the debate around Jayden and making tight window throws got pretty twisted. It’s not about whether he can/can’t.

 

The stats have been posted in this thread over and over. He can do it, and do it well. He just did not have to do it as often as some of the other guys due to being on a stacked team and having the ultimate eject-button w/ his wheels.

 

For me it seems much more a question of how much stock do you want to put in his sample size then whether he can do it not, cuz he absolutely can.

Heck, some metric sites have Jayden completing big-time throws at a higher rate then Maye, and he had a ton. Jayden just lacks attempts.

 

He just put up the best passer rating in college football history. Whenever he did choose to throw, the results were more often than not pretty great. It’s just a matter of whether he did it enough for a front office to reliably put confidence in the ability.

 

Goes back to my #1 fear w/ JD of buying flash vs consistency.

[ThatNFLChick]

2 minutes ago, mac8887 said:

I agree daniels throws with anticipation and in tight windows just fine, I don't understand the ones who say they know he struggles with that. But Logan is not one I'd use to defend my point, especially with how wrong he was with howell

 

I mean everyone is going to have guys they defer to or ones they trust more than others. As far aa the local folks - Grant Paulsen really likes Maye, Logan Paulsen and Jay Gruden really like Daniels. 

 

I have my favorites I pay attention to (not Grant or Logan though I do think Jay has an interesting take on QBs) but some will value sone opinions more than others.

Just now, FootballZombie said:

 

I think the debate around Jayden and making tight window throws got pretty twisted. It’s not about whether he can/can’t.

 

 

The stats have been posted in this thread over and over. He can do it, and do it well. He just did not have to do it as often as some of the other guys due to being on a stacked team and having the ultimate eject-button w/ his wheels.

 

 

For me it seems much more a question of how much stock do you want to put in his sample size then whether he can do it not, cuz he absolutely can.

Heck, some metric sites have Jayden completing big-time throws at a higher rate then Maye, and he had a ton. Jayden just lacks attempts.

 

 

He just put up the best passer rating in college football history. Whenever he did choose to throw, the results were more often than not pretty great. It’s just a matter of whether he did it enough for a front office to reliably put confidence in the ability.

 

 

Goes back to my #1 fear w/ JD of buying flash vs consistency.

 

I prefer Jayden but I think this is totally fair and I guess it will depend on the philosophy of those making the decisions. 

[pico926]

3 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

 

I think the debate around Jayden and making tight window throws got pretty twisted. It’s not about whether he can/can’t.

 

 

The stats have been posted in this thread over and over. He can do it, and do it well. He just did not have to do it as often as some of the other guys due to being on a stacked team and having the ultimate eject-button w/ his wheels.

 

 

For me it seems much more a question of how much stock do you want to put in his sample size then whether he can do it not, cuz he absolutely can.

Heck, some metric sites have Jayden completing big-time throws at a higher rate then Maye, and he had a ton. Jayden just lacks attempts.

 

 

He just put up the best passer rating in college football history. Whenever he did choose to throw, the results were more often than not pretty great. It’s just a matter of whether he did it enough for a front office to reliably put confidence in the ability.

 

 

Goes back to my #1 fear w/ JD of buying flash vs consistency.

Appreciate the feedback. Makes sense to me and certainly understand hesitation if the sample size is small in the eyes of the evaluator. I guess I was getting stuck on the "he can't" and "he doesn't" when clearly he can and he did. 

[mac8887]

1 minute ago, ThatNFLChick said:

 

I mean everyone is going to have guys they defer to or ones they trust more than others. As far aa the local folks - Grant Paulsen really likes Maye, Logan Paulsen and Jay Gruden really like Daniels. 

 

I have my favorites I pay attention to (not Grant or Logan though I do think Jay has an interesting take on QBs) but some will value sone opinions more than others.

To each their own, I think caleb and jayden are 1a,1b with maye a being a solid #2. The good news about a solid #2 is that there isn't really much to clean up.

 

I'm just saying I'd try to find someone that either played qb or coached qbs, or has a solid track record on evaluating qbs. Recently Logan hasn't shown he'd be the guy to choose to evaluate

[mac8887]

Just now, pico926 said:

Appreciate the feedback. Makes sense to me and certainly understand hesitation if the sample size is small in the eyes of the evaluator. I guess I was getting stuck on the "he can't" and "he doesn't" when clearly he can and he did. 

So many have been using absolutes with him when nobody can be 100% sure, especially while he's shown he 100% can make that type of throw. It's frustrating arguing with them. Burrow had chase but they use nabers to knock down daniels. How can anyone be so sure that it wasn't the other way around and maybe it was daniels making nabers a better player