The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[CommanderInTheRye]

Never heard of this guy but he ended up on my youtube recommendations so I gave him a low expectation shot, thinking he was probably just another new age Stephen A Smith loud talking wanna be, but I was pleasantly surprised.

 

Pretty objective non-fawning critical analysis of Taylor and the team. No major revelations or insights but good stuff nonetheless.

 

Only major disagreement is that the line imho has played much better not simply because of Taylor’s insertion into the lineup but because of personnel stability and the unit synergy caused by that stability the last few weeks….

 

 

 

[DJHJR86]

I'm old enough to remember when people were ready to build statues for Alex "all he does is win" Smith when the team was 6-4 in 2018.  

[DJHJR86]

8 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

If you ask him to throw the ball more than 25 times, he can’t and will turn it over at an astounding rate.  

 

Taylor is 9-7 in starts where he threw the ball more than 25 times over the last two seasons.  Carson Wentz is 6-12 in that same stretch.  

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 hour ago, DJHJR86 said:

I'm old enough to remember when people were ready to build statues for Alex "all he does is win" Smith when the team was 6-4 in 2018.  

This current roster is much better than the 2018 team, which colors some of the discontent now.  2018 was fools gold from the perspective we got boat raced by any team with a decent offense because our D was putrid and the offense was plodding.  You could easily see the hot start was a mirage, very similar to this years Giants.  What’s disappointing about this team is we actually have the makings of a damn good team but don’t have a QB that’s good enough to drive it.

Edited November 28, 2022 by BatteredFanSyndrome

[tmandoug1]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

And while I trust name that old fart like Tom Brady to gain more yards on the ground than Heinikce the way he's become allergic to running the further he plays.  Heinicke has strangely emerged as one of the the least running threat QBs we've had in recent years the more he plays.  Still Heinikce is agile and can maneuver in the pocket.

I wonder if this is his own self preservation to try and make as much money as he can. Doesn't he get significant money for snaps and wins? I know it sounds selfish, but maybe he knows his ceiling is low and needs to get what he can get. Why risk hurting himself.....turns off the cash flow. 

[skinsfan93]

6 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

TH continues to be a horrendous QB who's closest comp is closer to Tebow than anything else.

You can’t compare Heinicke to Tim Tebow. Tebow was a first round pick coming in with high expectations. He had the prototypical tangibles you would want in a qb.  I’m sure he tried to be a better passer but never improved which forced him to change positions. 
 

Taylor is not 6’4 230. He does still have intangibles that help him overcome some of his limitations. 

[TradeTheBeal!]

19 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

This current roster is much better than the 2018 team, which colors some of the discontent now.  2018 was fools gold from the perspective we got boat raced by any team with a decent offense because our D was putrid.  You could easily see the hot start was a mirage, very similar to this years Giants.  What’s disappointing about this team is we actually have the makings of a damn good team but don’t have a QB that’s good enough to drive it.

Prime Alex Smith could do some real damage with this roster/coaching staff.

[ananoman]

7 minutes ago, skinsfan93 said:

You can’t compare Heinicke to Tim Tebow. Tebow was a first round pick coming in with high expectations. He had the prototypical tangibles you would want in a qb.  I’m sure he tried to be a better passer but never improved which forced him to change positions. 
 

Taylor is not 6’4 230. He does still have intangibles that help him overcome some of his limitations. 

The fact that people are comparing TH to Tim Tebow tells you just how far the guy has come.  Let’s face it, we should be comparing him to guys like PJ Walker and Bryce Perkins.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

21 minutes ago, tmandoug1 said:

I wonder if this is his own self preservation to try and make as much money as he can. Doesn't he get significant money for snaps and wins? I know it sounds selfish, but maybe he knows his ceiling is low and needs to get what he can get. Why risk hurting himself.....turns off the cash flow. 

I doubt he’s out there consciously making business decisions, but I’m sure it’s baked into his mind that he must stay healthy to continue playing.  
 

I mentioned this last night, but I think Heinicke himself is much more realistic about who he is as a player than some of our fans are. You can see it in how hype he gets for the team around him and in his buying the OL and now RBs shoes.  The majority of the time, I believe he’s very self aware that he’s along for the ride and only tasked with not screwing it up.  I’m sure deep down he knows that’s his calling card to carving out a career in the league wherever Scott Turner is coaching.  But generally speaking, I’d imagine every start is a dream come true no matter his personal contributions.

Edited November 28, 2022 by BatteredFanSyndrome

[zCommander]

1 hour ago, The Sisko said:

I think there’s something you Hive guys may not be considering. My theory is that Henie’s limitations force Scott to call games to the team’s current strengths rather than being primarily the deep passing oriented offense that he’d prefer. Again, it’s good enough for where the team currently is, but it’s not good enough to regularly beat good teams, especially those with elite offenses capable of scoring on anyone. 

 

First of all he is not a true hiver, I believe, but now on the bandwagon instead.

Second -We did beat the Eagles with an elite offense capable of scoring on anyone. 

Third -This is the formula we have THIS year and have to play it out best to our players ability as possible to get into the playoffs - or more if we are able to. 

Fourth -Scott did get a QB with a big arm this year to stretch the field but he is on the bench and that is not Taylor's fault. 

 

Taylor has to reducer his turnovers though. Scott needs to call some plays that goes to Dotson as well. But the run game is working with just enough pass plays and they are winning. So I highly doubt things will change that much because of it. 

 

You want to dump on Taylor for his limitations and that is fine but you also can't live in a vaccum and bring up points like the deep passing game when the coaches got Wetnz for that reason.

 

@Est.1974 you talk about significant amount needs to be spent on the QB in the offseason. What do you think they did when they got Wentz? Was that too cheap then? Do you want to spend $200 million on a QB that turns out to be a Russell Wilson instead? Would that make you feel better? How about spend some time and reasonable amount and get a legit QB and not a fraud instead or even develop one. Is Howell that guy? Lots of stuff to talk about in the offseason. But right now we roll with what we got and the rollercoaster ride we are on. 

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

3 minutes ago, TradeTheBeal! said:

Prime Alex Smith could do some real damage with this roster/coaching staff.

Fair point, he would offer just enough to make us more interesting.

[tmandoug1]

 

				Passing							Rushing
Rk	Player	From	To	Cmp	Att	Yds	TD	Int	Sk	Yds	Att	Yds	TD
1	Matt Hasselbeck	1999	2015	15.4	25.5	175.3	1.0	0.7	1.7	10.8	1.7	5.9	0.0
2	Taylor Heinicke	2017	2022	15.8	24.7	168.5	1.0	0.8	1.7	13.0	3.0	14.3	0.1

 

Per game avg.

Funny **** right there......he took them to the Superbpol in 05 and had 273 yds 1 TD and 1 pick.

 

Smile.....you never know what can happen in this league. We moved up to #15 in Vegas to win Superbowl. Enjoy the ride!

 

 

Edited November 28, 2022 by tmandoug1

[skinsfan93]

In football, the quarterback gets most of the credit if the team wins and gets most of the criticism when they lose. I don’t agree with it fully but it is what it is. 
 

Whats dumbfounding is that we are winning yet with some of you guys you would think we are the laughingstock of the NFL. I’m not some kind of rosey colored fan who think’s Heinicke is gods gift to football. Just like you I have experienced sad futility for the last 30 years and would love to see something built correctly. At the same time, I’m also someone who lives in the present and enjoying the ride!

[Mr. Sinister]

21 minutes ago, TradeTheBeal! said:

Prime Alex Smith could do some real damage with this roster/coaching staff.

 

We would be divisional favorites with Smith, before his leg died.

[Thinking Skins]

41 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

Taylor is 9-7 in starts where he threw the ball more than 25 times over the last two seasons.  Carson Wentz is 6-12 in that same stretch.  

I'm just going to use this as a pivot to talk about Taylor more. I'm not going to get into the back and forth about who's better because I support whoever we're playing at QB. I was a pro Wentz guy and went after all the haters who had him ranked 33rd and lower in QB ratings. But lets look at some stats for Taylor

 

2021 vs 2022: 

Record:7-8 vs 5-1 (better)

Comp % 65 vs 60.8 (worse)

TD% 4.0 vs 4.1 (same or marginally better)

Int% 3.0 vs 2.9 (same or marginally better)

Y/A 6.9 vs 6.8 (same or marginally worse)

Y/C 10.7 vs 11.2 (better)

Y/G 213.4 vs 194.7 (worse)

rate 85.9 vs 82.7 (worse)

QBR 39.9 vs 47 (better)

sack % 7.1 vs 5 (better)

1D% 33.8 vs 35 (better)

 

I bring this up because so many people are grading Taylor as a finished product, but I see a young QB who to this day has only played in 30 regular season games. His first real action over an extended period of time was last year. So yeah he may know the offense inside and out but I think he can grow into a much better QB. Maybe he will never have the arm strength of Carson but he's learning to not make the same mistakes and winning while doing it. We have two games in a row with no sacks. He's taking less sacks than Wentz and less than last year (when he had a better OL). He's throwing for more first downs and at a slightly improved TD and Interception rate. 

 

I know he's 29 but what I've been saying on Twitter is we can insert Howell or whoever in the draft or FA we want to anoint as the next savior, but this team has had

Cousins (26-30-1),

Campbell (20-32),

Brunell (15-18),

RG3 (14-21)

Heinicke (12-9),
Smith (11-5) and
as good QBs in the Snyder era (post Brad Johnson). Thats going through

Ramsey (10-14),

Banks (8-6),

Grossman (6-10),

McNabb (5-8),
Collins (3-0),

Matthews (3-4),

Haskins (3-10),

Wuerffel (2-2),

Wentz (2-5). 

Johnson (1-2),

Allen (1-3),

Hasselbeck (1-4),
George (1-6),
McCoy (1-6),
Keenum (1-7),
Sanchez (0-1),

Gilbert (0-1),

Fitzpatrick (0-1)

Beck (0-3),

 

Thats a list of mobile / immobile / first rounders / low rounders / strong arm / weak arm / older / younger / intelligent / whatever you want to say but look at the number who sucked. The only ones with 10+ wins and a winning record are Heinicke and Smith. I say let him grow as a starter. If he becomes a great QB, then great. And if he fails, let him fail and be replaced but I want to see what he can become. Is his ceiling Jimmy G? Is it Brunell? Is he another Wuerffel? Is he an Alex Smith (thats who I compare his current play to), especially that 2020 Smith when Smith went 5-1 and was throwing Ints at a 3.2% and getting just 197 YPG. But his QBR was only 28.2 then (28.9 on 1D% which is lower than Heinicke's 35%). But I think he's at Smith in 2022, but can he get to Brunell levels in Jacksonville, where he was getting TD% in the 3s, 4s and 5s, Int% in the low 2s or 1s and 1D% in the 35 or 36. I think he could be just that. He had some seasons where he had YPG in teh high 200s, but most of his seasons were around 215 yards. I would like to see Heinicke develop into something like that. 

 

What we're witnessing here is something we've never seen under Snyder and I can probably go back to the 1992 season and say since Gibbs 1. Lets let it marinate and see what Heinicke can grow into. 

[DJHJR86]

45 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

This current roster is much better than the 2018 team, which colors some of the discontent now.  2018 was fools gold from the perspective we got boat raced by any team with a decent offense because our D was putrid and the offense was plodding.  You could easily see the hot start was a mirage, very similar to this years Giants.  What’s disappointing about this team is we actually have the makings of a damn good team but don’t have a QB that’s good enough to drive it.

 

The defense was not putrid in 2018.  It wasn't good, but it wasn't putrid.  They averaged less points given up in 2018 than what they gave up this season in the first 10 games.  The good thing about this team is that in addition to the defensive line playing lights out, we have a complimentary rushing attack which seems to be working. 

[Est.1974]

18 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

 

@Est.1974 you talk about significant amount needs to be spent on the QB in the offseason. What do you think they did when they got Wentz? Was that too cheap then? Do you want to spend $200 million on a QB that turns out to be a Russell Wilson instead? Would that make you feel better? How about spend some time and reasonable amount and get a legit QB and not a fraud instead or even develop one. Is Howell that guy? Lots of stuff to talk about in the offseason. But right now we roll with what we got and the rollercoaster ride we are on. 

I’m not sure I get this. I said I expect a significant investment to happen, which I believe is different to what you have phrased about.

 

However, for the record I was fine with the move for Wentz. Let’s be honest though, a couple of day 2 picks and a one year 20mil+ outlay isn’t quite the investment many fans make it out to be. Not for a QB anyway. 
 

I’m all in favour of developing a QB. However I suspect neither Rivera nor a new owner would be looking to run with a young QB now. If we manage to get a wildcard slot then the missing element will clearly be viewed as an upgraded vet QB, at whatever cost that takes. I’m opens minded enough to see what unfolds.

[DJHJR86]

1 minute ago, Thinking Skins said:

What we're witnessing here is something we've never seen under Snyder and I can probably go back to the 1992 season and say since Gibbs 1. Lets let it marinate and see what Heinicke can grow into. 

 

If he was 22, I would agree wholeheartedly with you.  But he's not.  And he also continues to throw from his back foot, and makes at least 2 boneheaded throws a game.  

[Thinking Skins]

21 minutes ago, tmandoug1 said:

 

				Passing							Rushing
Rk	Player	From	To	Cmp	Att	Yds	TD	Int	Sk	Yds	Att	Yds	TD
1	Matt Hasselbeck	1999	2015	15.4	25.5	175.3	1.0	0.7	1.7	10.8	1.7	5.9	0.0
2	Taylor Heinicke	2017	2022	15.8	24.7	168.5	1.0	0.8	1.7	13.0	3.0	14.3	0.1

 

Per game avg.

Funny **** right there......he took them to the Superbpol in 05 and had 273 yds 1 TD and 1 pick.

 

Smile.....you never know what can happen in this league. We moved up to #15 in Vegas to win Superbowl. Enjoy the ride!

 

 

I like this comparison too. Hasselbeck is a bigger QB than Heinicke but similar stats and took his team to a SB behing a strong running game and defense. 

[DJHJR86]

Also for reference, the team in 2018 was 5-1 with Alex Smith in games where there was more than 100 yards rushing.  They are 5-2 this year.  

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

2 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

The defense was not putrid in 2018.  It wasn't good, but it wasn't putrid.  They averaged less points given up in 2018 than what they gave up this season in the first 10 games.  The good thing about this team is that in addition to the defensive line playing lights out, we have a complimentary rushing attack which seems to be working. 

Stats, shmats.

 

The defense we see today is not the defense we saw the first five games of this season.  We got Curl back, moved the corners around, dumped WJ3, Davis and Forrest have emerged and they’ve been night and day from earlier this season.  
 

The only area the 2018 team had up on this one was offensive line.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

 

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

15 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

What we're witnessing here is something we've never seen under Snyder and I can probably go back to the 1992 season and say since Gibbs 1. Let’s let it marinate and see what Heinicke can grow into.

For anyone reading this without context, ThinkingSkins is notorious for falling in love with undrafted or late round, physically limited guys.  He’s got a Nick Mullins highlight reel on constant loop, of course it’s only 30 seconds long.

 

I kid…

[CommanderInTheRye]

8 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

I'm just going to use this as a pivot to talk about Taylor more. I'm not going to get into the back and forth about who's better because I support whoever we're playing at QB. I was a pro Wentz guy and went after all the haters who had him ranked 33rd and lower in QB ratings. But lets look at some stats for Taylor

 

2021 vs 2022: 

Record:7-8 vs 5-1 (better)

Comp % 65 vs 60.8 (worse)

TD% 4.0 vs 4.1 (same or marginally better)

Int% 3.0 vs 2.9 (same or marginally better)

Y/A 6.9 vs 6.8 (same or marginally worse)

Y/C 10.7 vs 11.2 (better)

Y/G 213.4 vs 194.7 (worse)

rate 85.9 vs 82.7 (worse)

QBR 39.9 vs 47 (better)

sack % 7.1 vs 5 (better)

1D% 33.8 vs 35 (better)

 

I bring this up because so many people are grading Taylor as a finished product, but I see a young QB who to this day has only played in 30 regular season games. His first real action over an extended period of time was last year. So yeah he may know the offense inside and out but I think he can grow into a much better QB. Maybe he will never have the arm strength of Carson but he's learning to not make the same mistakes and winning while doing it. We have two games in a row with no sacks. He's taking less sacks than Wentz and less than last year (when he had a better OL). He's throwing for more first downs and at a slightly improved TD and Interception rate. 

 

I know he's 29 but what I've been saying on Twitter is we can insert Howell or whoever in the draft or FA we want to anoint as the next savior, but this team has had

Cousins (26-30-1),

Campbell (20-32),

Brunell (15-18),

RG3 (14-21)

Heinicke (12-9),
Smith (11-5) and
as good QBs in the Snyder era (post Brad Johnson). Thats going through

Ramsey (10-14),

Banks (8-6),

Grossman (6-10),

McNabb (5-8),
Collins (3-0),

Matthews (3-4),

Haskins (3-10),

Wuerffel (2-2),

Wentz (2-5). 

Johnson (1-2),

Allen (1-3),

Hasselbeck (1-4),
George (1-6),
McCoy (1-6),
Keenum (1-7),
Sanchez (0-1),

Gilbert (0-1),

Fitzpatrick (0-1)

Beck (0-3),

 

Thats a list of mobile / immobile / first rounders / low rounders / strong arm / weak arm / older / younger / intelligent / whatever you want to say but look at the number who sucked. The only ones with 10+ wins and a winning record are Heinicke and Smith. I say let him grow as a starter. If he becomes a great QB, then great. And if he fails, let him fail and be replaced but I want to see what he can become. Is his ceiling Jimmy G? Is it Brunell? Is he another Wuerffel? Is he an Alex Smith (thats who I compare his current play to), especially that 2020 Smith when Smith went 5-1 and was throwing Ints at a 3.2% and getting just 197 YPG. But his QBR was only 28.2 then (28.9 on 1D% which is lower than Heinicke's 35%). But I think he's at Smith in 2022, but can he get to Brunell levels in Jacksonville, where he was getting TD% in the 3s, 4s and 5s, Int% in the low 2s or 1s and 1D% in the 35 or 36. I think he could be just that. He had some seasons where he had YPG in teh high 200s, but most of his seasons were around 215 yards. I would like to see Heinicke develop into something like that. 

 

What we're witnessing here is something we've never seen under Snyder and I can probably go back to the 1992 season and say since Gibbs 1. Lets let it marinate and see what Heinicke can grow into. 

 

Well done, sir!

 

A lot of hard work went into producing that post TS. Really appreciate the effort, and I find your conclusions well reasoned, supported by measurables and in some cases historic precedent.

 

While at the same time you quite properly acknowledge that the league may never have encountered a player of Taylor's modest abilities producing at this level for an extended period before.

 

We have thus valiantly gone beyond the map and entered the realm of undiscovered territory.

 

Who can say whether dragons or treasure lurks just beyond the edge...

 

"To the new world!"

 

 

[DJHJR86]

7 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

The defense we see today is not the defense we saw the first five games of this season. 

The only area the 2018 team had up on this one was offensive line.

 

Speaking of offensive line, the sacks have dropped off dramatically in the last 6 weeks.