2022 Comprehensive Draft Thread

[Skinsinparadise]

45 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

It's definitely possible, but I absolutely do not want to trade up for him. If we picked him where we are then I'd be ok with it.

 

 

I don't know yet how I feel about it.  I got to spend more time watching him.  But I'll say if its trading into the teens, you typically don't have to pay through the nose in a trade up.  Jets traded if I recall from 21 to 14 and didn't even give up a 2nd rounder. 

 

45 minutes ago, mistertim said:

I don't think the team, owner, or fans have the requisite patience and I have doubts that Turner would completely turn his offense upside down. Adding in more RPO stuff? Sure. But completely re-doing it for a running QB? I find that dubious.

 

Fans patience?  We got some people saying its perfectly ok to pass on a QB completely and advocating that as a go with the flow approach -- to me that is the ultimate test of fan's patience, not having a QB sit a season and learn.  

 

Ron is the head coach not Scott.   Rivera is the same dude that arguably was one of the first in the NFL to change up their team's offense to adapt to a running QB.   The whole hey that was then this is now and for some odd reason he wouldn't do it this time or Turner will fight back, etc -- strikes me as a stretch.   If this was Jay Gruden's offense I'd get the point -- he was not a RO kind of guy. 

 

If anything I think Ron might be craving to find a QB like Cam in his prime.  That's how he had his most of his success.  They ran Cam a lot. When he talked to Sheehan in one of his weekly interviews, one time he just gushed about how hard it is to stop mobile QBs.    I am not saying Willis is Cam.  I got no idea.  But my point is if anything Ron comes off based on his rheotric and previous actions that he is predisposed to want a QB with uber mobility let alone that isn't his kind of thing.

 

 

Edited December 17, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[mistertim]

51 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Fans patience?  We got some people saying its perfectly ok to pass on a QB completely and advocating that as a go with the flow approach -- to me that is the ultimate test of fan's patience, not having a QB sit a season and learn.  

 

Ron is the head coach not Scott.   Rivera is the same dude that arguably was one of the first in the NFL to change up their team's offense to adapt to a running QB.   The whole hey that was then this is now and for some odd reason he wouldn't do it this time or Turner will fight back, etc -- strikes me as a stretch.   If this was Jay Gruden's offense I'd get the point -- he was not a RO kind of guy. 

 

If anything I think Ron might be craving to find a QB like Cam in his prime.  That's how he had his most of his success.  They ran Cam a lot. When he talked to Sheehan in one of his weekly interviews, one time he just gushed about how hard it is to stop mobile QBs.    I am not saying Willis is Cam.  I got no idea.  But my point is if anything Ron comes off based on his rheotric and previous actions that he is predisposed to want a QB with uber mobility let alone that isn't his kind of thing.

 

This is all possible, though are we sure that Rivera really wants another Cam? Cam only really had one year where he was anything more than a mediocre QB. Yes, the threat of him running definitely changed how defenses played them and helped them out, but at the end of the day it's still a passing league and IMO having a running QB is only going to get you so far if he isn't a top notch passer as well, and I don't think Willis fits that bill. That doesn't mean he can't become a really good passer, but I think it could take a while.

 

Rivera praising mobile QBs is IMO different than saying he wants a running QB. I think those two things are different. Wilson, Allen, Mahomes, Murray, to an extent Rodgers...those guys are all mobile QBs who can make things happen with their legs, but the primary threat they pose is through the air. Jackson is a running QB who's only a mediocre passer. I think Willis is more in the mold of Jackson at this point. And I'm not convinced that's what Rivera actually wants, regardless of him having it with Cam. 

[KDawg]

Where are the fans saying to absolutely pass on a quarterback? I just don’t see anyone saying that. I see people that want to exercise caution in finding one for sure. And some are more reserved than others.

 

But I wholeheartedly understand that maybe I’ve missed something from some people. 
 

To reiterate my full stance: I don’t want a quarterback for the sake of getting one. Dwayne Haskins was that. Dan was desperate and went with the guy that had the strongest arm because he knew him. Some think Dan is out of things. Some are more reserved.

 

If there is a guy they genuinely like that doesn’t cost an arm and a leg… go for it. I’m all about it.

 

But if they’re just going to get a guy “because” I’m all the way out.

 

I don’t think that’s Rivera’s MO. Not sure on the Marty’s but it doesn’t feel their style. But people in desperate places to desperate things.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

2 hours ago, KDawg said:

 

But I wholeheartedly understand that maybe I’ve missed something from some people. 
 

 

 

You definitely missed it.  Multiple people have said they want to pass on it this year and build draft capital to do it in 2023.  It was on the QB thread.  I am not attacking them for it.  It's just opinion.  No rights or wrongs.  But my point is that would require much more patience from fans IMO to do that than red shirting a dude they draft this year.

 

2 hours ago, KDawg said:

 

To reiterate my full stance: I don’t want a quarterback for the sake of getting one. Dwayne Haskins was that. Dan was desperate and went with the guy that had the strongest arm because he knew him. Some think Dan is out of things. Some are more reserved.

 

If there is a guy they genuinely like that doesn’t cost an arm and a leg… go for it. I’m all about it.

 

But if they’re just going to get a guy “because” I’m all the way out.

 

I don’t think that’s Rivera’s MO. Not sure on the Marty’s but it doesn’t feel their style. But people in desperate places to desperate things.

 

I've read your take like always with interest.  Off the top of my head here's where we agree and here's where we disagree.  We mostly agree.  Correct me if I got something wrong. 

 

A.  Corral is the best QB.  Agree.

B.  Not sure about Pickett but certainly some optimism on him -- but a little back and forth on him.  Agree.

C.  Like Howell more than most.  Agree.

D.  Have some concerns about Ridder, would roll the dice but not early in the draft.  Agree.

E.   Think Willis wouldn't be a good fit here.  Disagree.  With the disclaimer that I am still digesting the player.  But I disagree with the point about why he wouldn't be a fit here for the coaching staff-fans patience, etc.

F.  Looks like we both like Carr but I'd pay more to get him

G.  We both like the idea of trading for Rodgers or Wilson but think its unrealistic

H.  We both agree to upgrade on Heinicke.

 

As for the philosophy of how the off season will unfold and how to play it -- we both got our guesses about it.  I think I am more optimistic than you that something is likely going to go their way where they can be aggressive to land their target.  I also don't think fans will be too forgiving if they don't do something AND bring back that same rodeo and have a tread water or worse than that type of season. 

 

If we got Heinicke and Allen back for round 2 regardless of whether Rivera has an explanation for why it went down that way -- I think fans and for the matter the local and national media will ridicule him some for heading to season 4 of his tenure without taking a swing at a franchise QB.  There has already been some digs for not doing it yet but doubling down on it will racthet up that pressure IMO  I think if we are worried purely about fans patience the biggest test of it would bring back the same rodeo versus red shirting a QB they draft IMO.

 

I don't really care much to engage in a debate about them taking a QB out of desperation that they don't really like.  For me to believe that, I'd have to believe that Dan made that move -- not Ron.  Swinging and missing at QB doesn't help Rivera's job status for long or help his legacy so taking a QB that he doesn't believe in much just seems too wild for me to have any worry about it as a debating point.  But if I hear like i did in 2019 before the draft that Dan is again hopped up on a QB -- I'd certainly believe it to be a worry then.  With our idiot owner anything is possible, i keep hearing though he's still in his cage.  But will see.  

Edited December 17, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Going Commando]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Fans patience?  We got some people saying its perfectly ok to pass on a QB completely and advocating that as a go with the flow approach -- to me that is the ultimate test of fan's patience, not having a QB sit a season and learn.  

 

We've got to have a QB and hot having one is tantamount to wasting a year of everyone's career.  But I'm not ready to give up on Heinicke.  I only want us to pick a prospect in the first round that I feel confident can be an upgrade over Heinicke.  I feel that way about Willis and maybe Corral, but I'm not sure about the other guys. 

[Skinsinparadise]

50 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

We've got to have a QB and hot having one is tantamount to wasting a year of everyone's career. 

 

I think they have to take a hard swing in year 3 whether its the draft or FA.  Of course, I am not saying a swing at a player they don't dig. I am presuming they will have prospects they dig.  I got the impression that they do like some of the QBs in this draft based on the Junkies interview with Rivera.  But that's obviously just a guess.  Will see. 

 

50 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

But I'm not ready to give up on Heinicke.  

 

Depends on what the definition of give up is for me.  I want him on the roster.  Do I think he's the answer -- long term?  I don't.  And I am not really wavering that much on it.  He'd have to really kill it in the home stretch to change my mind.  

 

50 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

I only want us to pick a prospect in the first round that I feel confident can be an upgrade over Heinicke.  I feel that way about Willis and maybe Corral, but I'm not sure about the other guys. 

 

I am not hung up purely on the draft as for the QB spot.  But if I am purely focused on the draft, the top 6 QBs to me are all distinctly more talented than Taylor.  Are they going to end up better?  That's tough to tell.  For me much of it is going to be about the Senior Bowl.    And I got to spend more time watching some of the players.

Edited December 17, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

3 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

This is all possible, though are we sure that Rivera really wants another Cam? Cam only really had one year where he was anything more than a mediocre QB.

 

 Listening to Rivera talk about Cam, I don't believe he thinks he only got one good year out of Cam.  They way he gushed in an interview about how hard its stop a really mobile QB -- yeah I do get the vibe he's open to go that route again

 

 

3 hours ago, mistertim said:

Jackson is a running QB who's only a mediocre passer. I think Willis is more in the mold of Jackson at this point. And I'm not convinced that's what Rivera actually wants, regardless of him having it with Cam. 

.

 

No way to know.  But I'll just leave it this way.  People are going to have a tough time convincing me that the coach who had a running QB and seemed to embrace it at the time is the same dude that we don't think its his kind of thing going forward.  Rivera has said recently in an interview that Carolina depended a lot on Cam to make their offense run but thought they need to add weapons with the benefit of hindsight or something like that.  He talked about that in the context of adding weapons in the previous off season.  It's just whenever Rivera has talked about Cam his voice seems to have a bounce in it -- like him recalling the best of times in Carolina versus it feeling like heck not that again. 

 

But who knows.  We are just guessing.  I am explaining the rationale behind my guess. 

 

[Going Commando]

Malik Willis's footwork issues as a pocket passer are coachable.  I'm more skeptical of our coaching staff than pretty much anyone else here, and even I would still expect them to get the kid ready to play, especially if they get the rare luxury to redshirt him his rookie year.  If you believe in our coaches, then you should want them to go out and get the biggest talent available at the position.  Swing for upside.  Be certain that you're getting an upgrade over Taylor if you're going to draft a QB.   And to me that's Willis and I don't really think it's even that close between him and #2.  He's a diesel version of Michael Vick, basically a phenom with elite arm talent and legitimately spectacular playmaker running ability.  So many great runs and scrambles in spite of blocking that is utter bull****.  Imagine what he could do with teammates who are actually good players.  Him + Gibson is a backfield that would strike fear in opponents.  Especially with this good offensive line play we've enjoyed.  You would win via fundamental football just because of what a hard day it would to get off blocks and tackle them.

[Skinsinparadise]

23 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

Malik Willis's footwork issues as a pocket passer are coachable.  I'm more skeptical of our coaching staff than pretty much anyone else here, and even I would still expect them to get the kid ready to play, especially if they get the rare luxury to redshirt him his rookie year.  If you believe in our coaches, then you should want them to go out and get the biggest talent available at the position.  Swing for upside.  Be certain that you're getting an upgrade over Taylor if you're going to draft a QB.   And to me that's Willis and I don't really think it's even that close between him and #2.  He's a diesel version of Michael Vick, basically a phenom with elite arm talent and legitimately spectacular playmaker running ability.  So many great runs and scrambles in spite of blocking that is utter bull****.  Imagine what he could do with teammates who are actually good players.  Him + Gibson is a backfield that would strike fear in opponents.  Especially with this good offensive line play we've enjoyed.  You would win via fundamental football just because of what a hard day it would to get off blocks and tackle them.

 

I've been blown away by him as a runner and have talked about it from early on this season but never did a full dive into him as a passer.  I can see he's special as far as the mobility front.  Arm talent is obvious, too. 

 

I haven't really sat down and watched a few back to back games where I immersed myself in his play.   After doing that I typically feel more confident in selling my opinion especially when it comes to QBs.  I am going to try to watch his game tomorrow.  

 

But yeah I am with you as for being VERY intrigued.    But I am not confident yet to give my full on opinion.   My concerns from what I watched are similar to those with Ridder -- consistency as for accuracy and decision making.  To some extent pocket presence, too.   But his tools intrigue me a lot.  He has no supporting cast in Liberty.

 

I know i am a broken record on this but I want to see what he does among others do at the Senior Bowl. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 18, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[BC-Redskins]

In my limited expertise on QB’s..

 

corral - think will be away before we pick.

pickett - again think will be away but really worried about this hand size thing, would be our luck that he struggles in cold weather !!!

 

howell - maybe FATE if we get called Redwovles !! 🤣
 

Willis - if FO think he could be Really Special with time and coaching, then I say he’s our pick.. 

 

 

[KDawg]

Willis has enormous upside. 
 

He reminds me of a mobile Dwayne Haskins. I’m not being funny. Fast, athletic Dwayne Haskins. He has some of the same passing difficulties as Haskins. He has a better ability to mask those difficulties with his legs.

 

Its the accuracy and field read issues that have me extremely concerned.

 

But I don’t doubt his physical talent one bit.

[Thinking Skins]

2 hours ago, KDawg said:

Willis has enormous upside. 
 

He reminds me of a mobile Dwayne Haskins. I’m not being funny. Fast, athletic Dwayne Haskins. He has some of the same passing difficulties as Haskins. He has a better ability to mask those difficulties with his legs.

 

Its the accuracy and field read issues that have me extremely concerned.

 

But I don’t doubt his physical talent one bit.

This is not encouraging. Can he throw a slant route? A hook? A screen? A 9 route? 

 

Honestly, my main question as not these guys is not about the talent it's about the preparation and the love for the game. I thought Haskins loved the game listening to his interviews, but I was fooled. I get the feeling that Corral loves the game (love his comment about playing the bowl game). Don't know much about Howell on this front yet. 

[Koolblue13]

New video of Zappe today. I like this guys stuff. Been watching a few of them. @Thinking Skins this guy is right up your alley if you want a non day 1 QB.

[Skinsinparadise]

For all the Zappe talk. For those curious he’s playing right now on ESPN. Been watching the game. It’s mostly been dink and dunk but he just throw a beauty out route 

[Koolblue13]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

For all the Zappe talk. For those curious he’s playing right now on ESPN. Been watching the game. It’s mostly been dink and dunk but he just throw a beauty out route 

Other than always being in shotgun and no level of competition, I like him. He's going to the senior bowl, right?

[Skinsinparadise]

16 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Other than always being in shotgun and no level of competition, I like him. He's going to the senior bowl, right?

He’s going to the Senior Bowl, yes.

 

Especially for a dude with that level of inferior competition (which is easy to see in today’s game on both sides as far as the defenses) it will be interesting to see how well he does in a different context,

 

He plays typically out of shot gun, spread, 4 receivers. A lot of quick game, a lot of safe passes in the flat.  I am interested to see how he does if he has to change that up.

 

He has good protection and a nice weapon in Sterns. I am intrigued by him but I am proceeding with caution with him, too. Senior Bowl will be key for me.

 

 

Edited December 18, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[DWinzit]

Are there any other top QB's playing today besides Zappe now and Willis later?

[Skinsinparadise]

3 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

Are there any other top QB's playing today besides Zappe now and Willis later?

I like Haener for Fresno State but he’s coming back for another year 

[DWinzit]

Just now, Skinsinparadise said:

I like Haener for Fresno State but he’s coming back for another year 

I did see Fresno was playing but ignored it due to Haeners announcement (which was a good decision for him)

Thank you. Looking forward to watching Wiliis

[Skinsinparadise]

Going back to Zappe, I do like his pocket presence and overall mobility.  Decisive.  Fluid. 

 

Not sure about his arm strength, it comes and goes, he  has some zip at times but also throws his share of floaters.  He can put some mustard though on throws down the field so he's likely OK on that front. 

 

From what I can tell his intangibles are really good.   Hard worker.  Leader, etc. 

 

 

 

Granted Darnold is a low bar and he was wrong about him though Darnold was a hyped first round pick so from that context its high praise.

 

Western Kentucky head coach Tyson Helton calls Bailey Zappe the best quarterback he’s ever been around—bear in mind that Helton has coached several quarterbacks, including current Carolina Panthers quarterback Sam Darnold while at USC.

“He’s the best one I’ve ever been around—and that includes Sam Darnold,” Helton told reporters. “I love everything about Bailey Zappe. You can check every box: from his competitiveness, to his demeanor, to the way he operates, to his unselfishness, to his leadership, to his accuracy … he’s the best I’ve ever been around… I love Sam Darnold and he’s going to have a great career in the National Football League. If Sam Darnold were sitting here and he watched Bailey Zappe, he would say, ‘I wish I played like Bailey Zappe in college.”

 

https://thedraftnetwork.com/articles/bailey-zappe-2022-nfl-draft-stock

Edited December 18, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

Some really nice throws today from Zappe, adding to my intrigue 

[DWinzit]

57 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Some really nice throws today from Zappe, adding to my intrigue 

61 TD passes is a s***ton. His 36 yard toss to the RB down the middle was sweet

[Skinsinparadise]

Just now, DWinzit said:

61 TD passes is a s***ton. His 36 yard toss to the RB down the middle was sweet

  Yeah he’s made some nice throws today. He’s also though had killer protection and plenty of time to throw.  That’s been the case for him during the season, too.

 

I’d be interested to see what he can do under duress. 

 

 

[DWinzit]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

  Yeah he’s made some nice throws today. He’s also though had killer protection and plenty of time to throw.  That’s been the case for him during the season, too.

 

I’d be interested to see what he can do under duress. 

 

Boy has he. I think the announcer stated all 5 starting OL received conference recognition. 

 

You called it on Sterns too, he is a good player