The Guardian: Joe Biden's gender discrimination order offers hope for young trans athletes - Discussion Thread

[tshile]

Also. You can have multiple points or parts of an argument. And it’s ok to disagree with one point/part, without it meaning you disagree with her on everything. 
 

the rarity doesn’t matter. If it did, we wouldn’t be having this conversation in the first place because they’re an incredibly tiny part of society. It’s already established rarity doesn’t matter. Even if people only acknowledge that when he’s convenient to their immediate point. 
 

Inclusion is what matters. 
 

 

But no, letting them play on womens sports isn’t the only way to include them. Despite what some people want to claim. 
 

and no the rarity of it doesn’t do anything about the concerns of them in woman’s sports. 
 

in short - the idea that we should care about being nice and giving people a fair shake at things is the only thing she got right in her statement. 

3 minutes ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

- You must not have read past my first sentence. This came afterwards: "She doesn't start off with her point..."

 

- As far as I can tell, Rapinoe isn't posting on this thread. So it doesn't matter if it's mentioned over and over on this thread. We are talking about the point of someone who isn't posting here.

Yes. It does matter. What a stupid thing to say. The conversation extends beyond this forum and beyond her statement. Get a grip 😂 

[Hersh]

1 hour ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

What does that matter? Include middle school, all levels of club athletics, all levels of college...anything that girls work hard at, try out for, and care about. That's what the argument is right? That we should care THAT MUCH about everyone's feelings? Well, her opinion is showing that we don't care if this impacts even 7 (or 70 or 700 or 7,000) girls who eventually are nudged out by people who have an unfair advantage. 

 

 

If you want to advocate that no athletes should be cut from a team in HS and below, I'm good with that. However, you made up a situation of some mediocre athlete getting cut from a team because of a trans person and that doesn't happen. Now you want to tie the mediocre athlete in HS to all levels of college competition, which is amusing. 


 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

5 minutes ago, tshile said:

Yes. It does matter. What a stupid thing to say. The conversation extends beyond this forum and beyond her statement. Get a grip 😂 

 

I said you were wrong about Rapinoe's point...what the **** does anyone else's point have to do with that? Stay focused.

 

And here, to help you better understand Rapinoe's point:

 

"And I think people also need to understand that sports is not the most important thing in life, right? Life is the most important thing in life. And so much of this trans inclusion argument has been put through the extremely tiny lens of elite sports. Like that is not the way that we need to be framing this question. We’re talking about kids. We’re talking about people’s lives.

 

I would also encourage everyone out there who is afraid someone’s going to have an unfair advantage over their kid to really take a step back and think what are we actually talking about here. We’re talking about people’s lives. I’m sorry, your kid’s high school volleyball team just isn’t that important. It’s not more important than any one kid’s life."

 

- Megan Rapinoe, from the same article that tweet was taken from.

[tshile]

3 minutes ago, Hersh said:

 

If you want to advocate that no athletes should be cut from a team in HS and below, I'm good with that. However, you made up a situation of some mediocre athlete getting cut from a team because of a trans person and that doesn't happen. Now you want to tie the mediocre athlete in HS to all levels of college competition, which is amusing. 


 

Wouldn’t it be fair to say it doesn’t happen because this isn’t really a thing that’s been dealt with before? Every thing I was in other than cross country and wrestling had roster limits. By definition someone making the team, does so at the expense of someone else not making the team. No?

And even wrestling, while no roster limits, had varsity and jv and when we had multiple people at a weight class the better wrestler was preferred 

3 minutes ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

I said you were wrong about Rapinoe's point...what the **** does anyone else's point have to do with that? Stay focused.

 

And here, to help you better understand Rapinoe's point:

 

"And I think people also need to understand that sports is not the most important thing in life, right? Life is the most important thing in life. And so much of this trans inclusion argument has been put through the extremely tiny lens of elite sports. Like that is not the way that we need to be framing this question. We’re talking about kids. We’re talking about people’s lives.

 

I would also encourage everyone out there who is afraid someone’s going to have an unfair advantage over their kid to really take a step back and think what are we actually talking about here. We’re talking about people’s lives. I’m sorry, your kid’s high school volleyball team just isn’t that important. It’s not more important than any one kid’s life."

 

- Megan Rapinoe, from the same article that tweet was taken from.

Right. Her point is the concerns don’t matter because it isn’t rampant (which is just dumb), and that there’s only one way to solve this (which is wrong)

 

Again - the part that we should care about people is true. The rest of it is garbage. 

[tshile]

What’s the saying? 1 out of 3 ain’t bad?

 

no, that’s not it….

[Califan007 The Constipated]

4 minutes ago, tshile said:

Right. Her point is the concerns don’t matter because it isn’t rampant (which is just dumb), and that there’s only one way to solve this (which is wrong)

 

Again - the part that we should care about people is true. The rest of it is garbage. 

 

Holy ****...wow.

 

She thinks sports concerns don't matter because trans kids are killing themselves...not because there aren't enough trans kids taking spots from other kids on sports teams. That's why she says "think what are we actually talking about here. We’re talking about people’s lives." How in the world are you completely missing that point?

[TD_washingtonredskins]

5 minutes ago, Hersh said:

 

If you want to advocate that no athletes should be cut from a team in HS and below, I'm good with that. However, you made up a situation of some mediocre athlete getting cut from a team because of a trans person and that doesn't happen. Now you want to tie the mediocre athlete in HS to all levels of college competition, which is amusing. 


 

 

That hasn't happened yet. And suddenly this need for compassion and inclusion falls by the wayside when a non-trans athlete is simply just "mediocre" hahaha. This "mediocre" student athlete would have spent a good portion of her life training to get to a point by the age of 14 or 18 or whatever age to have the opportunity to play her sport. So, just because she's on the fringe of making a field hockey team for a 1-AA college or something, doesn't really matter to me. It's important to her and the people who have supported her. Why is that less important than a trans and their support system? 

 

And no, I don't want to advocate that no one ever gets cut from sports. That's not at all what I'm saying. But I don't want biological males to be able to steal biological female spots on teams. Whether or not that's happened yet or not is immaterial. It's OK to legislate against something proactively if you believe you are protecting people from being wronged. A biological female has no other realistic choice...a biological male does and can continue competing against the same competition. 

 

 

[Hersh]

6 minutes ago, tshile said:

Wouldn’t it be fair to say it doesn’t happen because this isn’t really a thing that’s been dealt with before? Every thing I was in other than cross country and wrestling had roster limits. By definition someone making the team, does so at the expense of someone else not making the team. No?

And even wrestling, while no roster limits, had varsity and jv and when we had multiple people at a weight class the better wrestler was preferred 

Right. Her point is the concerns don’t matter because it isn’t rampant (which is just dumb), and that there’s only one way to solve this (which is wrong)

 

 

Speaking specifically to the point of a trans-person knocking a mediocre athlete off a team, will it ever be a thing in middle school or HS? I'm extremely skeptical of that specific point. 

[tshile]

1 minute ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

Holy ****...wow.

 

She thinks sports concerns don't matter because trans kids are killing themselves...not because there aren't enough trans kids taking spots from other kids on sports teams. That's why she says "think what are we actually talking about here. We’re talking about people’s lives." How in the world are you completely missing that point?

I’m not missing it. I’ve reference the suicide rates many of times in talking about how we treat them (as well as gay people cause it’s a problem for them as well)

 

Here let me help you: when someone makes multiple points in an argument, it’s ok to disagree with some, and agree with others. It’s not an all or nothing situation. 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

1 minute ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

Holy ****...wow.

 

She thinks sports concerns don't matter because trans kids are killing themselves...not because there aren't enough trans kids taking spots from other kids on sports teams. That's why she says "think what are we actually talking about here. We’re talking about people’s lives." How in the world are you completely missing that point?

 

So, sports aren't important to a "regular kid" but they are important enough to a trans kid to keep them from killing themself. The numbers are so insignificant that regular kids shouldn't bother complaining about it, but they are important enough that we should discuss and make rules allowing trans kids special privileges to play against kids who are at a severe disadvantage. 

 

Do you see how the talking points get flipped and the significance gets changed to serve one side's purpose but not the other's? 

[Hersh]

1 minute ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

That hasn't happened yet. And suddenly this need for compassion and inclusion falls by the wayside when a non-trans athlete is simply just "mediocre" hahaha. This "mediocre" student athlete would have spent a good portion of her life training to get to a point by the age of 14 or 18 or whatever age to have the opportunity to play her sport. So, just because she's on the fringe of making a field hockey team for a 1-AA college or something, doesn't really matter to me. It's important to her and the people who have supported her. Why is that less important than a trans and their support system? 

 

And no, I don't want to advocate that no one ever gets cut from sports. That's not at all what I'm saying. But I don't want biological males to be able to steal biological female spots on teams. Whether or not that's happened yet or not is immaterial. It's OK to legislate against something proactively if you believe you are protecting people from being wronged. A biological female has no other realistic choice...a biological male does and can continue competing against the same competition. 

 

 

 

Start by separating HS and down from college. Fring I-AA college athletes were some of the best in high school. They weren't in danger of getting cut. 

 

If a student athlete spend a good portion of her life training and is still mediocre and on the edge of getting cut, it's time to try something new. 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

4 minutes ago, Hersh said:

 

Speaking specifically to the point of a trans-person knocking a mediocre athlete off a team, will it ever be a thing in middle school or HS? I'm extremely skeptical of that specific point. 

 

I'd be willing to bet it happens at some point. But let's say that you're right and it never does...all that happens is that a trans kid co-exists with other females on the same teams in MS and HS. Who are you to say that Mary Beth the non-trans tennis player from Nebraska or Katie the non-trans gymnast from New York were just happy being on the team and didn't want to play more? 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

5 minutes ago, tshile said:

I’m not missing it. I’ve reference the suicide rates many of times in talking about how we treat them (as well as gay people cause it’s a problem for them as well)

 

Here let me help you: when someone makes multiple points in an argument, it’s ok to disagree with some, and agree with others. It’s not an all or nothing situation. 

 

When it comes to interpreting her point, you absolutely missed it. By a mile. You're doing exactly what she specifically says we should NOT be doing when it comes to this topic.

[tshile]

1 minute ago, Hersh said:

 

Speaking specifically to the point of a trans-person knocking a mediocre athlete off a team, will it ever be a thing in middle school or HS? I'm extremely skeptical of that specific point. 

well, how so? I mean it’s pretty cut and dry is it not?

 

if a team has a roster limit of X, and > X try out, and a trans person makes the roster, then by pure logic someone else didn’t. And they didn’t because someone with the genetics of a male, took a place on the team. 
 

And for every instance of that, there is 1 trans person making the team, and 1 female not. 
 

so the rarity is 1:1. So the rarity either matters or it doesn’t. And the context of the issue dictates it doesn’t. It’s baked into the problem. 
 

The only time it wouldn’t be true:

- there is no roster limit

- the roster limit is X, but <= X tried out

 

and that’s just making the roster. We’re not talking about any of the other things - starting, making all star teams, winning awards, being captain…

 

To be clear - I’m not adamantly against the idea. 
 

im just adamantly against the careless and dumb way you all handwave the concerns away. It’s not even logically consistent the way you do it by pointing to rarity. And the idea that sports don’t have roster limits and such, is, well dumb. Unless you’ve never played sports, then I guess maybe you wouldn’t know these things. (I know you’ve played and coached and know these things)
 

[tshile]

6 minutes ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

When it comes to interpreting her point, you absolutely missed it. By a mile. You're doing exactly what she specifically says we should NOT be doing when it comes to this topic.

Hah - as part of pushing her idea as the only acceptable possible way to deal with it. Which is complete horse****. 
 

and no - I’ve been very vocal and consistent that this issue needs addressing. 
 

im for addressing it. I’m just for actually discussing it and considering all options.  Not pretending my idea is the only one, then trying to pretend anyone who disagrees with me is full of hatred and/or doesn’t care that people take their lives over this issue. 
 

which is what you’re doing. And what she’s doing. 
 

ive attacked the idea that rarity doesn’t matter because it’s logically inconsistent. I’ve attacked the idea that there is only one solution, because that idea is bogus. 
 

you and her have attacked people with concerns for being hateful or not caring about the suicide issue. 
 

YOU are the problem. YOU lack the ability to discuss this like an adult. YOU are more concerned about pushing your preferred idea, than discussing a complex and novel problem. 
 

Get smarter. 

Edited June 21, 2022 by tshile

[Spaceman Spiff]

Manon Rheaume is still a smokeshow.  Jeez.

 

Anyway, carry on.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

8 minutes ago, Hersh said:

 

Start by separating HS and down from college. Fring I-AA college athletes were some of the best in high school. They weren't in danger of getting cut. 

 

If a student athlete spend a good portion of her life training and is still mediocre and on the edge of getting cut, it's time to try something new. 

 

OK, tough guy...slice and dice it any way that you want. The point is, we know there are multiple levels of high school, club, and college athletes before we are even entertaining the idea of future Olympians or professionals. I'm talking about the kids (and their coaches, families, siblings, etc.) who pour countless hours and dollars into early mornings, long days, dinners on the run, etc. so that they can follow their dreams of playing basketball at Randolph-Macon or swimming at Elon (not being a household name). 

 

Those are the ones I'm talking about...and despite your dismissive and insulting opinions about how little it matters if they get cut or benched for a trans-kid, I think it would matter a great deal to them. 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

6 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

So, sports aren't important to a "regular kid" but they are important enough to a trans kid to keep them from killing themself.

 

I guess I have to spell it out.

 

It's not that sports are important to trans kids. It's that inclusion in society is important to trans kids. Excluding trans kids from every day parts of just living life has a huge effect. And sorry, but the realities are that sports are not some isolated area of exclusion...it's part of the entire fabric of how and in what ways society is wanting to acknowledge the trans community. It all goes hand in hand with each other. It's like the argument against a "separate but equal" society...not the Constitutional argument but the basic argument that you can still have equality in society and also have full segregation. No. You can't.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

7 minutes ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

I guess I have to spell it out.

 

It's not that sports are important to trans kids. It's that inclusion in society is important to trans kids. Excluding trans kids from every day parts of just living life has a huge effect. And sorry, but the realities are that sports are not some isolated area of exclusion...it's part of the entire fabric of how and in what ways society is wanting to acknowledge the trans community. It all goes hand in hand with each other. It's like the argument against a "separate but equal" society...not the Constitutional argument but the basic argument that you can still have equality in society and also have full segregation. No. You can't.

Neat...this isn't the 1890s though. A trans kid isn't denied the opportunity to swim in a meet with other kids. They are simply made to swim with kids physically like them so they can't destroy a bunch of kids they are much stronger than and demoralize them just to feel good in their world.

 

If it needs to be explained that sports is being split up by sex in order to be fair and inclusive to ALL (something that should resonate, I would think) even though they can identify any way they want throughout the rest of society (which they can...again, let's be honest here, trans lifestyle gets a lot of run and publicity for it making up less than 1% of the population), that seems pretty fair to me. 

Edited June 21, 2022 by TD_washingtonredskins

[bearrock]

6 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

They are simply made to swim with kids physically like them so they can't destroy a bunch of kids they are much stronger than and demoralize them just to feel good in their world.

 

Just wanted to point out two things:

 

1) At some point after transition and hormone treatment, I think they have more biological semblance to their transitioned sex rather than birth sex.  

 

2) For many trans children, I think society's recognition of their gender identity is more important than their ability to dominate the competition.  Whether they come in first, mid, or last, the message that's damaging is the overt/subvert "you're a member of gender X, but only kind of and not really".  

 

I almost think Facebook's approach to gender of just having multitude of gender categories (including self labeled ones) and leaving sex to biological anatomy is the preferred approach.  What the hell is gender supposed to tell us about anyone anyway?  

[tshile]

4 minutes ago, bearrock said:

 

Just wanted to point out two things:

 

1) At some point after transition and hormone treatment, I think they have more biological semblance to their transitioned sex rather than birth sex.  

 

I’m assuming that’s the part where they pick the age of 12 

 

and if someone wants to argue the age should be different - I’m all ears, and have nothing to argue either way. 
 

but the general idea of similar capabilities is (supposed to be) exactly what this is about.

 

4 minutes ago, bearrock said:

   What the hell is gender supposed to tell us about anyone anyway?  

And to that I would say - then this isn’t about their gender identity. It’s about the sex they relate to within the context of the people they’re competing against. 
 

So if a trans person has transitioned to the point their sex no longer gives them an advantage* - cool, let them play with the girls 

 

But if they have an advantage* - then they play with the boys. 
 

* when or how that advantage is determined, and to what extent it matters, is it’s own debate and I have no clue where the lines should be drawn, as I previously mentioned with the age of 12 thing. 

[Hersh]

32 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

OK, tough guy...slice and dice it any way that you want. The point is, we know there are multiple levels of high school, club, and college athletes before we are even entertaining the idea of future Olympians or professionals. I'm talking about the kids (and their coaches, families, siblings, etc.) who pour countless hours and dollars into early mornings, long days, dinners on the run, etc. so that they can follow their dreams of playing basketball at Randolph-Macon or swimming at Elon (not being a household name). 

 

Those are the ones I'm talking about...and despite your dismissive and insulting opinions about how little it matters if they get cut or benched for a trans-kid, I think it would matter a great deal to them. 

 

So I'm supposed to feel bad for a family and able-bodied student athlete that pours countless hours and dollars into being good at something and all that gets them is to good enough to maybe make a team in high school. Somehow it's awful if they don't cause of trans-kid but if another kid happened to transfer into the school and make the team instead, well, that's fine. Just as long as they don't get beat out for a roster spot by the trans-kid. Is that right?

 

Also, if someone is good enough to play or swim for either of the two programs you mentioned, they aren't getting cut in HS. 

 

It's not about being a tough guy or being dismissive, but you are trying to create situations which aren't happening as it relates to HS. You chose to slice and dice it a certain way. 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

2 minutes ago, Hersh said:

 

So I'm supposed to feel bad for a family and able-bodied student athlete that pours countless hours and dollars into being good at something and all that gets them is to good enough to maybe make a team in high school. Somehow it's awful if they don't cause of trans-kid but if another kid happened to transfer into the school and make the team instead, well, that's fine. Just as long as they don't get beat out for a roster spot by the trans-kid. Is that right?

 

Also, if someone is good enough to play or swim for either of the two programs you mentioned, they aren't getting cut in HS. 

 

It's not about being a tough guy or being dismissive, but you are trying to create situations which aren't happening as it relates to HS. You chose to slice and dice it a certain way. 

 

They may not get cut "in HS" but they may not make the team in college that I was referring to. Or they may make the team and not play as much, etc. 

 

As for a transfer student stealing a spot, that's still a kid with the same physical makeup. If a girl transfers in and beats out a girl, so be it. Bad luck, but yes that happens all the time. But a guy transitioning one summer and suddenly running the 100M dash and taking a girl's spot in the relay doesn't seem as OK in my book. 

[bearrock]

27 minutes ago, tshile said:

I’m assuming that’s the part where they pick the age of 12 

 

and if someone wants to argue the age should be different - I’m all ears, and have nothing to argue either way. 
 

but the general idea of similar capabilities is (supposed to be) exactly what this is about.

 

 

I agree on advantage being the central issue.  Whether they want to use age, hormone level, muscle mass, whatever that is the best approximation to measure unfair advantage due to biological anatomy, I think that's the proper approach.  

 

Quote

And to that I would say - then this isn’t about their gender identity. It’s about the sex they relate to within the context of the people they’re competing against. 
 

So if a trans person has transitioned to the point their sex no longer gives them an advantage* - cool, let them play with the girls 

 

But if they have an advantage* - then they play with the boys. 
 

* when or how that advantage is determined, and to what extent it matters, is it’s own debate and I have no clue where the lines should be drawn, as I previously mentioned with the age of 12 thing. 

 

In this context, the sooner they decouple sex and gender, the better.  Sex is an immutable biological characteristic.  It doesn't tell us anything about that person beyond the biology.  Having a penis is not predictive of a certain behavioral characteristic, not in individual  cases anyway. 

 

Now imagine a biological male, who wants to do and look like all the stereotypically female gender things.  In a world where gender norms and labels do not exist, there is no gender dysphoria here.  There's no societal rejection of your innate characteristics and identity because society never presumed you will behave a certain way based on your anatomy.  You're simply a person with a penis wearing a dress with makeup and whatever else stereotypically "female" thing you want to do.  Then you go swim with other people who have a penis, because the thing the penis is generally associated with is a higher level of testosterone, which is predictive of athletic advantage.  There's no discrimination.  There's no denial of self.  It's just a recognition that you were born with a physical characteristic that doesn't make any difference in most situations in life except in limited circumstances like here.

 

12 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

But a guy transitioning one summer and suddenly running the 100M dash and taking a girl's spot in the relay doesn't seem as OK in my book. 

Ok, but we also know that's not happening.  Even Lia Thomas had to go through years of waiting etc.  If the point is that current transition requirement is insufficient to wipe out birth biological advantage, that's one thing.  But unless the position is that birth biological advantage can never be wiped out (I don't think that's what science says, but I may be wrong), at some point, it's no longer unfair to let trans females compete with females.  

Edited June 21, 2022 by bearrock

[tshile]

23 minutes ago, Hersh said:

Somehow it's awful if they don't cause of trans-kid but if another kid happened to transfer into the school and make the team instead, well, that's fine. Just as long as they don't get beat out for a roster spot by the trans-kid. Is that right?

i think it’s wrong if they’re losing out to someone because they were of a different sex and that is the cause. 
 

im willing to accept whatever measurement determines “fair” in that regard. I’m certainly not capable of picking where and how to draw the line. 
 

I also want to point out that the awfulness of it is up to each person. To me - I’m willing to accept the rules society picks even when I disagree with them. To me - the suicide element (or even drug addition or other things) are so clear and away worse than missing out on your high school team. 
 

I’m involved because it’s the topic of the moment and I think I have something to say, that’s worth being said. 
 

But I have no pitchforks for this. And if my daughter is bumped out by a trans kid the discussion will be about the lesson in life of competition and trying hard and accepting you won’t always win; and figuring out if it’s worth trying harder to win next time. 
 

im certainly not going to rant and rave about how the liberals have destroyed my daughters childhood or whatever else. 
 

the part that sucks is people who just hate trans people and want to exclude them, happen to say some of these same things. I’m not blind to that. And it does suck to recognize that. But I do not think the points I’ve made are wrong or irrelevant. I think they’re worthy of consideration 

 

and I think the bigots should be ignored. When possible - reached out to. But that certainly doesn’t happen via the media. It’s more of a personal conversation thing. 

Edited June 21, 2022 by tshile