Heinicke Hive: The LEGEND of Taylor Heinicke Thread

[KDawg]

1 hour ago, PartyPosse said:

This is some next level apologist **** right here.

I don’t think so. He’s not wrong. Although Heinicke did play poorly on top of the OL playing poorly.

 

Its not like he’s defending a guy who has less sacks on the season than a rookie in a couple quarters or anything.

Edited December 13, 2021 by KDawg

[PartyPosse]

6 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I don’t think so. He’s not wrong. Although Heinicke did play poorly on top of the OL playing poorly.

 

Its not like he’s defending a guy who has less sacks on the season than a rookie in a couple quarters or anything.

From what I read:

 

- Terry couldn't get open because, like in the NO, he was blanketed, even though that's always gonna be the case with a QB that underthrows him.

- Receivers missed a ton of easy throws.

- No one was able to beat their man even though that was absolutely not the case

- Turner had a bad game plan.

- If it wasn't for Taylor's houdini act, we'd have been completely blown out.

- He's now got PTSD

 

Yet, you, like some others, seem to focus on a guy that hasn't played in a month? Weird whataboutism from both of you. BTW, almost a year ago to the date, Chase had 1 sack, FF, FR and TD return in that SF game and everyone loved him. Interested to see where Parsons is in a year.

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, PartyPosse said:

From what I read:

 

- Terry couldn't get open because, like in the NO, he was blanketed, even though that's always gonna be the case with a QB that underthrows him.

- Receivers missed a ton of easy throws.

- No one was able to beat their man even though that was absolutely not the case

- Turner had a bad game plan.

- If it wasn't for Taylor's houdini act, we'd have been completely blown out.

- He's now got PTSD

 

Yet, you, like some others, seem to focus on a guy that hasn't played in a month? Weird whataboutism from both of you. BTW, almost a year ago to the date, Chase had 1 sack, FF, FR and TD return in that SF game and everyone loved him. Interested to see where Parsons is in a year.

It’s disappointment in him. I, unlike others, don’t think he’s a bust yet. I do, however, think he needs to put football first and improve on his weaknesses he had coming out of college and go back to playing in the scheme more like 2020.
 

Back to the topic: All of those things were true that he said, though. But I didn’t read his post as an excuse session, which maybe it was. I read it as a list of reasons the offense as a whole sputtered.

 

There’s really no reason to defend Heinicke overall yesterday. He stunk. Absolute clunker. 

[PartyPosse]

6 minutes ago, KDawg said:

It’s disappointment in him. I, unlike others, don’t think he’s a bust yet. I do, however, think he needs to put football first and improve on his weaknesses he had coming out of college and go back to playing in the scheme more like 2020.
 

Back to the topic: All of those things were true that he said, though. But I didn’t read his post as an excuse session, which maybe it was. I read it as a list of reasons the offense as a whole sputtered.

 

There’s really no reason to defend Heinicke overall yesterday. He stunk. Absolute clunker. 

I read it as, "Taylor didn't have a good game, but it would have been impossible for him to have one."

[mistertim]

3 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

I read it as, "Taylor didn't have a good game, but it would have been impossible for him to have one."

 

I think it would have been very difficult for any mediocre QB to have a good game yesterday.

 

I said leading up to that game that (in my personal opinion) for the needle to move on Heinicke from being in the 15-20 range of QBs to a potential top half of the league or even top 10 guy, I'd need to see him demonstrate the ability to win games with his arm when the rest of the "equation" isn't all there...namely when the running game is shut down and/or the defense doesn't show up so we need to put up points fast.

 

The defense played decent overall, but Dallas sold out to stop the run and, due mostly to turnovers, put up points fast to where we were in a hole. So that was pretty much exactly the situation I wanted to see him handle, and it wasn't pretty. So for me at the moment he's still trending towards being a 15-20 guy who can help you win games as long as the other aspects are firing on all cylinders, but without that he's not going to be a threat to take over a game with his arm.

[wit33]

9 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I think it would have been very difficult for any mediocre QB to have a good game yesterday.

 

I said leading up to that game that (in my personal opinion) for the needle to move on Heinicke from being in the 15-20 range of QBs to a potential top half of the league or even top 10 guy, I'd need to see him demonstrate the ability to win games with his arm when the rest of the "equation" isn't all there...namely when the running game is shut down and/or the defense doesn't show up so we need to put up points fast.

 

To expect this consistently is reserved for the elite and even those guys will have 2-4 clunkers a year. 
 

If Heineke became a top 15-20 QB that’s a huge win. Are there arguments on here that he projects to being more than that? 

 

9 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

The defense played decent overall, but Dallas sold out to stop the run and, due mostly to turnovers, put up points fast to where we were in a hole. So that was pretty much exactly the situation I wanted to see him handle, and it wasn't pretty. So for me at the moment he's still trending towards being a 15-20 guy who can help you win games as long as the other aspects are firing on all cylinders, but without that he's not going to be a threat to take over a game with his arm.

This is significant, if Ron and company felt this way I think they’d be lining up a contract right now. I don’t feel he’s earned that designation in the least. It’s damn hard to be an average to above QB in the league. I’m out 100% when those guys want to get paid above 6-8% of the cap. 

Edited December 13, 2021 by wit33

[mistertim]

1 minute ago, wit33 said:

 

To expect this consistently is reserved for the elite and even those guys will have 2-4 clunkers a year. 
 

If Heineke became a top 15-20 QB that’s a huge win. Are there arguments on here that he projects to being more than that? 

 

This is significant, if the Ron and company felt this way I think they’d be lining up a contract right now. I don’t feel he’s earned that designation in the least. It’s damn hard to be an average to above QB in the league. I’m out 100% when those guys want to get paid above 6-8% of the cap. 

 

I never said "consistently", though. I just said I'd like to see him in that situation and see if he's capable of doing it.

 

The main thing talked about on here has been what people think Heinicke's "potential" is. Whether or not he's capable of sometimes winning a game with his arm when the rest of the team isn't stacking up is, to me, an indicator of his potential. If he can show at least the ability to put the team on his back and win with his arm would go a long way towards determining what that potential is.

 

As far as projections, there have been a wide range, with some saying they think he could have top 10 potential. I'm open to the possibility but with his physical limitations I'm a little dubious. Being able to carry the team when need be would go a long way towards seeing him as a potential top 10 guy. As of now I really don't see it. So that's why I say 15-20 range guy. He's not bad, but he also likely needs a lot of other things going well in order to win (as in the last several weeks after the bye).

 

As far as contract...why would we be lining up a new one for a middle-low tier starter? He's signed for another year for cheap and unless something drastic changes I doubt there are many teams who are going to throw crazy money at him in FA. I've seen this response before and to me it seems a bit knee-jerk. "Oh my god we have a guy who can play QB in the NFL, we have to extend him, STAT!"  Why?

[PartyPosse]

18 minutes ago, wit33 said:

If Heineke became a top 15-20 QB that’s a huge win. Are there arguments on here that he projects to being more than that? 

Have you not been reading the thread? There are arguments here that he projects to be a top 15-20 QB OF ALL TIME

[wit33]

2 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I never said "consistently", though. I just said I'd like to see him in that situation and see if he's capable of doing it.

 

Didn’t he do this against the Falcons and Giants? 
 

2 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

The main thing talked about on here has been what people think Heinicke's "potential" is. Whether or not he's capable of sometimes winning a game with his arm when the rest of the team isn't stacking up is, to me, an indicator of his potential. If he can show at least the ability to put the team on his back and win with his arm would go a long way towards determining what that potential is.

 

As far as projections, there have been a wide range, with some saying they think he could have top 10 potential. I'm open to the possibility but with his physical limitations I'm a little dubious. Being able to carry the team when need be would go a long way towards seeing him as a potential top 10 guy. As of now I really don't see it. So that's why I say 15-20 range guy. He's not bad, but he also likely needs a lot of other things going well in order to win (as in the last several weeks after the bye).

 

Oh, I haven’t seen it myself in this board that he can become a top 10 guy. Stranger things have happened, but no way do I think he becomes a top 10 guy, just to announce my position on that. 

 

2 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

As far as contract...why would we be lining up a new one for a middle-low tier starter? He's signed for another year for cheap and unless something drastic changes I doubt there are many teams who are going to throw crazy money at him in FA. I've seen this response before and to me it seems a bit knee-jerk. "Oh my god we have a guy who can play QB in the NFL, we have to extend him, STAT!"  Why?

If Heineke were to prove he’s a middle tier QB with running ability, sign me up, as long as it’s at or around 5% of the cap. 
 

I value middle tier greatly at the QB spot, just can’t overpay them dudes. Get a solid starter at a reasonable cost while hunting for an elite QB in the draft/average young guy on a rookie deal— ideal for me. 
 

This idea you must fully invest in average QB play, pay them gobs of money, and not be aggressive in trying to upgrade is asinine. 

[PartyPosse]

25 minutes ago, mistertim said:

I think it would have been very difficult for any mediocre QB to have a good game yesterday.

I disagree and this is why. It's pretty clear there's a blueprint to making him look bad and that's mainly exploiting his inability to throw deeper balls with any sort of zip. A mediocre QB with a decent arm could have easily exploited the number of times Dallas corners jumped the routes or just played underneath. There was no fear of having the ball thrown over them. It's why Kyle looked good. the defense had a plan that didn't involve going against a QB that can make those strong throws.

[wit33]

2 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

Have you not been reading the thread? There are arguments here that he projects to be a top 15-20 QB OF ALL TIME

Stop it, this not true lol Is it?

[PartyPosse]

2 minutes ago, wit33 said:

Stop it, this not true lol Is it?

Not completely true, but if you want I can go back on the thread and find some pretty wild predictions for him. 

[ThomasRoane]

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

It’s disappointment in him. I, unlike others, don’t think he’s a bust yet. I do, however, think he needs to put football first and improve on his weaknesses he had coming out of college and go back to playing in the scheme more like 2020.
 

Back to the topic: All of those things were true that he said, though. But I didn’t read his post as an excuse session, which maybe it was. I read it as a list of reasons the offense as a whole sputtered.

 

There’s really no reason to defend Heinicke overall yesterday. He stunk. Absolute clunker. 

 

Spoken as an analytical coach who can go beyond emotions and get to the real issues. 

 

Heinicke clearly had a bad game.  I even said he needed to come out.  Injury or not.  That said, there are more problems than just #4.  This team needs more talent.  Another draft or two.  I'm happy with what the Coaches and FO have done this year.  Aside from Samuel and WJ III (Who is playing better in zone) the Coaches and FO have gotten a lot of bang for their buck.  Without Leno, Lucas, Schweitzer, and bringing back Flowers that could have been a much uglier game.  They've all been very solid.  Ismael looks like a treasure as a rookie; can easily project to at least a swing center/guard.  Cosmi is good.  Bates looks like a very solid TE who can block and catch.  Bringing in Humph and Carter were great moves.  The players the FO drafted on defense have been pretty darn good as well.  I want to see more from Davis but the DE's brought on as FA's and thru the draft are doing a really good job.  

 

People who have coached know that QB's get too much credit and too much blame.  The real truth is somewhere in the middle.  Of course TH can and should play better.  But go back and look very early in this thread.  I said and continue to say that TH is the kind of QB that needs to be in a Power and Play action system.  Run more boots, quick game, etc.  Pound the ball because they don't have receivers that can make defenders look stupid.  

 

I'm fine with rolling with TH because he makes the games interesting and I don't see anyone in College who appears to be a can't miss QB.  And if you can't find that guy, then keep building your team.  I've also said in this thread that TH may not be Mr. Right but he is Mr. Right now.  The team could do a lot worse.  If I thought Allen could do better I'd be all about putting him in.  He seems to me to be nothing more than an arm.  There's more to playing QB than arm strength.  So, I trust the Coaches and the FO to build a solid team.  So when they do see a Mr. Right they can afford to package some picks and go get him without nerfing the team for the future.  

 

P.s. Show me all the clips where Terry was wide open Sunday Partyposse -  I'll wait.  And if your #1 can't win and your #2 is not dependable then what?  When you have 2 seconds or less you're not getting to that 3rd read.  Anybody who's played QB or coached it would understand that.  

Edited December 13, 2021 by ThomasRoane

[dunfer]

I was hoping for a Kirk gameplan yesterday of 2 steps and unload for 3-5 yard crossers all day, then run gibson for 4 more in between.

 

Mabye his height takes some of that away?

Edited December 13, 2021 by dunfer

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

4 minutes ago, ThomasRoane said:

P.s. Show me all the clips where Terry was wide open Sunday Partyposse -  I'll wait.  And if your #1 can't win and your #2 is not dependable then what?  When you have 2 seconds or less you're not getting to that 3rd read.  Anybody who's played QB or coached it would understand that.  

I haven’t delved into yesterday’s game yet but there’s tape all over the internet, every week.  There are guys getting open every week.  Mark Bullock regularly breaks us down, he’s a good follow.  

[ThomasRoane]

6 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I haven’t delved into yesterday’s game yet but there’s tape all over the internet, every week.  There are guys getting open every week.  Mark Bullock regularly breaks us down, he’s a good follow.  

 

Well, here's some clips for ya.

 

 

 

Don't get me wrong.  I love Terry McLaurin.  But that's two DBs now that are long that he has struggled against.  When that happens, your #2 receiver absolutely must win immediately!  Who is that #2 guy that can win consistently?  Until you find him, then your QB will have to hold the ball longer than he wants to.  Which means more pressure.  

 

My wishlist is:

 

1) FS that has range and can cover

2) Big receiver that can win off the LOS.  Cam Sims is good when he gets going.  But aside from that one play for a TD you don't see a lot of quick slants.  He needs to work on getting off the line.  Hump and Carter aren't big enough or fast enough.

3) OL depth

4) RB (I big back that can pound defenses)

5) TE (I'm leery about Thomas and you can never get enough good TEs if you want to run it)

Edited December 14, 2021 by ThomasRoane

[PartyPosse]

16 minutes ago, ThomasRoane said:

P.s. Show me all the clips where Terry was wide open Sunday Partyposse -  I'll wait.  And if your #1 can't win and your #2 is not dependable then what?  When you have 2 seconds or less you're not getting to that 3rd read.  Anybody who's played QB or coached it would understand that.  

I don't remember saying that he was always wide open, but I have said before that there are always guys that seem to be open. I noticed last week when I was at the Vegas game. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

2 minutes ago, ThomasRoane said:

Well, here's some clips for ya.

Like I said, I haven’t even delved into this week.  I don’t find it hard to believe that Diggs was in Terry’s pocket though. 
 

Sadly, Heineke ultimately shut Terry Down with that duck.  Hopefully he’ll be back this week.

[ThomasRoane]

3 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

I don't remember saying that he was always wide open, but I have said before that there are always guys that seem to be open. I noticed last week when I was at the Vegas game. 

 

Oh, I thought we were talking about yesterday's game.  Yeah, he's missed open receivers.  We didn't notice it as much cause the team won.  That's how it works.  Winning glosses over the mistakes and losing causes you to focus more on the errors.  Which is why us coaches get much more from watching film after a loss than a win.  You really drill down on the minutiae.  Fixing the little things helps the big things work themselves out. 

[ThomasRoane]

4 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Like I said, I haven’t even delved into this week.  I don’t find it hard to believe that Diggs was in Terry’s pocket though. 
 

Sadly, Heineke ultimately shut Terry Down with that duck.  Hopefully he’ll be back this week.

 

Like Drax and a metaphor, my point is going right over your head like one of yesterday's passes from #4.  

 

So, here ya go:  The WFT desperately needs a really good #2 receiver who can win immediately so if Terry is covered the QB should have time to get to him even when the defense comes with a blitz.

 

That is how you go and beat Philly this week and win the rematch vs Dallass.  Samuel should be that guy.  Can he though?  That's what the offense (not just the QB) needs to be successful.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

15 minutes ago, ThomasRoane said:

 

Like Drax and a metaphor, my point is going right over your head like one of yesterday's passes from #4.  

 

So, here ya go:  The WFT desperately needs a really good #2 receiver who can win immediately so if Terry is covered the QB should have time to get to him even when the defense comes with a blitz.

 

That is how you go and beat Philly this week and win the rematch vs Dallass.  Samuel should be that guy.  Can he though?  That's what the offense (not just the QB) needs to be successful.

It’s not going over my head, I just think you see what you want to see because you are heavily invested in Heineke.  Every bad game you regularly make it about everyone else and what we don’t have. There’s plenty of tape out there on the internet, put together by people that actually earn a living analyzing football.  Rarely is the dialogue about how nobody is getting open and how we desperately need more weapons.  I only get that from you and the few others who are way in the tank for dude.  Of course more weapons would be nice, but there’s a good portion of the field that Heineke can’t reach even if we had them.  The guys we do have are getting open every week.  I’m well aware that doesn’t mean the progressions lead the QB there all the time or that the protection doesn’t break down or insert any other variable here.  But to pretend that our offensive woes are solely about having sorry weapons is disingenuous.

Edited December 14, 2021 by BatteredFanSyndrome

[PartyPosse]

22 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Like I said, I haven’t even delved into this week.  I don’t find it hard to believe that Diggs was in Terry’s pocket though. 
 

Sadly, Heineke ultimately shut Terry Down with that duck.  Hopefully he’ll be back this week.

More aggressive corners will shut down any receiver that has a softer arm throwing. They're not sitting back and waiting for the passes to be defended, they're making the plays and it's either when the ball is coming slower.

[dunfer]

That throw to Cam seemed like a bullet.

[Peregrine]

On 12/12/2021 at 10:52 AM, mistertim said:

 

Can you give me a detailed explanation for what putting extra effort into a handoff looks like? Not talking about play action. The handoff itself. What exactly does extra handoff effort entail?

Yes, after the handoff, you fake a pass.   Or you make it look like you are going to run.  Or, after you handoff you continue to drop back as if you are looking to pass.  I understand you may be new to watching the NFL, but many top QBs do this as second nature in order to freeze the linebackers for a step.

Watch a few extra games every week, maybe look back on the past ones and you will see each QB does this differently, and see the different tendencies each team has.  Its very interesting to see and learn about the various ways every player has to be involved in plays and can help his team gain extra yards, even once that dont primarily involve them.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

This can’t be real life.