Heinicke Hive: The LEGEND of Taylor Heinicke Thread

[mistertim]

38 minutes ago, zskins said:

 

I am just old school. Just give me a good smash mouth football game that moves the chains 10 yards at a time and wining the game/season.

 

I get it, but that's mostly not going to happen nowadays unless you happen to have an unstoppable All-Pro RB like Derrick Henry. The league has changed in many ways in the past 30 years. If you want to watch a bunch of smash mouth games of ball control and running you might be better off just watching replays from the 80s and 90s. The game has moved on and pretty much every coach and FO recognizes that now. It's a passing and QB driven league, whether we like it or not. 

[ThomasRoane]

4 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

My point was that it's a one-off for that team. Teams with average QBs that go to the SB aren't perennial contenders. They generally manage to get there once when the planets align and never truly sniff it again with that QB. Happened with Foles, Flacco, Kaep, etc.

 

I'd rather keep trying to find that top end QB instead of hoping for one of those elusive long shot one-off SB appearances. 

 

Consider the history of this franchise.  Washington has been trying to find that top end QB since Sammy Baugh.  There has only been one year wonders.  Even in the three Super Bowl victories.  I'm okay with that as a goal but let's not be naive and pretend that it's an easy thing to do.  

 

In the meantime, look how many QB's the owner has forced upon coaching staffs.  Jeff George, Ramsey, McFlabb, RG III (Shanahans wanted to stay put and draft Tannehill - who is still playing btw), and Haskins.  You don't think he'll get bored and force RR's hand if the team struggles?  

 

I'm tired of seeing QBs that weren't good enough for Snyder go and have success elsewhere.  Don't think the fanbase would forgive a repeat with Heinicke.  Especially if he continues to improve.  

[Thinking Skins]

1 hour ago, zskins said:

I said everyone wants to but doesn't have to. I also said you have to balance it. Like we did in the last two game. I know everyone wants a strong armed QB so they can throw the ball 65+ yards and Taylor can't. My point was you can win with Taylor with a strong running game. You don't need to air it out and can still win in the trenches. Sure it is not fun but it gets the job done. You said it is now a passing league. I said it doesn't have to be. 

I'm still off the opinion that we don't know how good his arm is. It may not be on the level of a Haskins but he can throw it deep and complete it. He can also throw into lanes with zip. This is part of the question mark. If teams could just crowd the line and stop him, that'd be one thing and I'd put him as a backup. Or if he were afraid to throw it deep. Or if he kept throwing ints when he threw it deep. But that's not what's happening. He's making be deep ball completions. He has the most TDs over 20 yards in the league. So until his arm shows he can't handle the deep ball, I'm not counting that against him.

[ThomasRoane]

4 hours ago, zskins said:

 

I knew you were going to say that that is why I said in the last two games when we ran more than passed we won those two game.

 

So it really hasn't changed in the last 30 years. Everyone wants to air it out because it makes the game more fun. Winning makes it more fun to me. Grind it out. Get the W. Who care how you do it as long as you do it and get to the big stage. People keep on forgetting it was the turtle who won the race. 

 

 

Your point is especially important this year with an extra game.  An extra cold weather game!  When I coached, I'd always emphasize the run game more as we got towards the end of the season.  Because when the weather gets colder and windy the passing game just isn't as dependable.  The ball is slicker.  The wind carries it.  Cold fingers don't respond as well.  Granted, southern teams don't have as much of an issue with that; until they have to play in a cold weather game.

 

BUT!  There's also the referee factor.  Ever notice how flags fly like confetti on DBs in the early part of the season and then later you can't buy a call?  As the season gets closer to the end, Referees don't want to be the reason a team wins or loses.  So, suddenly, all those PI calls you were getting disappear.  Receivers throw their hands up and refs just stare at them.  They're going to let them play.  So, even in a warm weather setting, a team that can run it will have the edge.  That's always going to be the case. 

 

Hell, take college football.  The RPO was created to help smaller colleges to run the ball vs big defensive lines that they couldn't block.  The Run option is first for a reason.  Less can go wrong.  And it sets up big plays in the passing game.

 

My motto as a coach was pass to score but run to win.  If you can impose your will on the opponent and win the Time of Possession you'll be competitive in every game.  

 

Take last year's Super Bowl.  Fornette (89 yds)/RJ II (61 yds) rushed for 150 yards; one TD.  Brady passed for 201; 3 TDs. So, forty-three percent of the yards were on the ground.  Tampa called 28 runs to 29 passes (four of those passes went to Fornette for 46 yards; an extension of the running game really).  

 

Oh yeah, and all three of Brady's TD passes?  Play-action.  Set up by the run.  

[mistertim]

34 minutes ago, ThomasRoane said:

 

Consider the history of this franchise.  Washington has been trying to find that top end QB since Sammy Baugh.  There has only been one year wonders.  Even in the three Super Bowl victories.  I'm okay with that as a goal but let's not be naive and pretend that it's an easy thing to do.  

 

In the meantime, look how many QB's the owner has forced upon coaching staffs.  Jeff George, Ramsey, McFlabb, RG III (Shanahans wanted to stay put and draft Tannehill - who is still playing btw), and Haskins.  You don't think he'll get bored and force RR's hand if the team struggles?  

 

I'm tired of seeing QBs that weren't good enough for Snyder go and have success elsewhere.  Don't think the fanbase would forgive a repeat with Heinicke.  Especially if he continues to improve.  

 

I don't really disagree with any of this and it isn't in contradiction to the points I've been making. It's not easy to find a top franchise QB. Very true. We've had a string of bad QBs, including some that were crappy decisions made by a crappy owner. Very true. We've had QBs go elsewhere and have success. Mostly true (not going to sidetrack this into which QBs were actually good, etc).

 

So that's all correct. But it also doesn't mean that we should stop trying. The best way to become a relevant franchise and have long term success in today's NFL is to find a top end franchise QB. It's not easy to do, but that's the secret sauce. Sure, you can become relevant briefly with a middle of the pack QB and good support cast, but it won't last very long.

[PartyPosse]

40 minutes ago, ThomasRoane said:

I'm tired of seeing QBs that weren't good enough for Snyder go and have success elsewhere. 

I can count on 0 fingers how many times that happened.

[ThomasRoane]

3 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I don't really disagree with any of this and it isn't in contradiction to the points I've been making. It's not easy to find a top franchise QB. Very true. We've had a string of bad QBs, including some that were crappy decisions made by a crappy owner. Very true. We've had QBs go elsewhere and have success. Mostly true (not going to sidetrack this into which QBs were actually good, etc).

 

So that's all correct. But it also doesn't mean that we should stop trying. The best way to become a relevant franchise and have long term success in today's NFL is to find a top end franchise QB. It's not easy to do, but that's the secret sauce. Sure, you can become relevant briefly with a middle of the pack QB and good support cast, but it won't last very long.

 

I agree with you.  I think we disagree in how we get that guy.  Personally?  I'm tired of giving up draft capitol and I don't like the idea of nerfing the salary cap.  That big contract didn't do Russell Wilson any favors.  I think the FO should have the Packers mentality.  Draft a QB every year.  See if you hit.  Just don't throw away a guy who is keeping the fans watching in the meantime. 

4 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

I can count on 0 fingers how many times that happened.

Brad Johnson Stats | Pro-Football-Reference.com

[Skinsinparadise]

\

11 minutes ago, ThomasRoane said:

 

I agree with you.  I think we disagree in how we get that guy.  Personally?  I'm tired of giving up draft capitol and I don't like the idea of nerfing the salary cap.  That big contract didn't do Russell Wilson any favors.  

 

Shooting for Russell Wilson would be a novel drill for this team. 

 

Dan's ammo for QB has been going after good-not great QBs in the twlight of their career.  We've never traded for a bonafide top 10 QB.

 

I'd love Wilson.  Having said that, I doubt he'd want to come here.

 

If we go same old, same old.  It would be trading for Jimmy G or waiting for someone like Carson Wentz to turn 34 and trade for him.   Our speed isn't to shoot for great but instead for guys who are good to average but potentially at the tail end of their career. 

 

As for QBs in the draft our ammo (with the exception of RG3) is to overdraft QBs in the first round but are really 2nd-3rd round talents IMO.

 

IMO we've only shot for the fences once at QB.    The rest of it has been akin to spending $70 for a steak at Outback that has gotten a bit cold sitting out and then wondering why its not Ruth's Chris quality.

Edited November 23, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[PartyPosse]

11 minutes ago, ThomasRoane said:

 

I agree with you.  I think we disagree in how we get that guy.  Personally?  I'm tired of giving up draft capitol and I don't like the idea of nerfing the salary cap.  That big contract didn't do Russell Wilson any favors.  I think the FO should have the Packers mentality.  Draft a QB every year.  See if you hit.  Just don't throw away a guy who is keeping the fans watching in the meantime. 

Brad Johnson Stats | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Outside of being the QB for one of the best defensive teams in football history and winning a SB for a year, he was basically the same QB and had the same success. He was 10-3 that one year and 30-32 the rest of the way. 

[ThomasRoane]

9 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

Outside of being the QB for one of the best defensive teams in football history and winning a SB for a year, he was basically the same QB and had the same success. He was 10-3 that one year and 30-32 the rest of the way. 

 

You do understand that winning the Super Bowl is what the NFL is all about right?  That's really all that matters.  

[mistertim]

29 minutes ago, ThomasRoane said:

 

I agree with you.  I think we disagree in how we get that guy.  Personally?  I'm tired of giving up draft capitol and I don't like the idea of nerfing the salary cap.  That big contract didn't do Russell Wilson any favors.  I think the FO should have the Packers mentality.  Draft a QB every year.  See if you hit.  Just don't throw away a guy who is keeping the fans watching in the meantime. 

 

 

Not sure we're really in a position to consider the Packers mentality. They've had a HoF QB under center for just about 30 years now, which allows them way more leeway to experiment and try different approaches.

 

I don't want them to "throw away" Heinicke because he's at the very least an excellent backup, but I also don't want them to be in a position where they stick with a middle of the road guy because they hope one day he'll turn elite. So keep TH, but shoot for a potential upgrade who you do think could become an upper echelon NFL QB.

 

5 minutes ago, ThomasRoane said:

 

You do understand that winning the Super Bowl is what the NFL is all about right?  That's really all that matters.  

 

At the end of the day that's true. But we're talking about QB quality here, not just their record or if they've won a SB. I don't think anyone would say Johnson was a better QB than Marino, but he's won more Super Bowls.

Edited November 23, 2021 by mistertim

[PartyPosse]

8 minutes ago, ThomasRoane said:

 

You do understand that winning the Super Bowl is what the NFL is all about right?  That's really all that matters.  

So if Arizona wins the SB, are we gonna say Colt McCoy found more success elsewhere? I guess that's true, but that's little to do with the QB and more to do with the situation they put themselves in.

[ThomasRoane]

7 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

So if Arizona wins the SB, are we gonna say Colt McCoy found more success elsewhere? I guess that's true, but that's little to do with the QB and more to do with the situation they put themselves in.

 

My son played QB.  Was a very good one in the City of Hampton.  I told him to be careful.  QB's get too much credit and too much blame.  That's just how it is.  But learned very early how dependent he was on his O-line, backs, and receivers.  There is no QB who is going to lead a crappy team to a Super Bowl victory.  The left Tackle doesn't care who the QB is or where he's from.  As long as he can help him win a Super Bowl.  Same for the Center.  The Left Guard.  The #1 Receiver.  The defense.  The punter.  The Kicker.  They don't care about a QB's pedigree.  All that matters is whether or not that QB can help them win a Super Bowl.  

 

Who do you think the Super Bowl winning Eagles players appreciate more?  Nick Foles (still bouncing around from team to team) or Carson Wentz the high draft pick?  Foles got hot and helped them win a Super Bowl ring.  They will always prefer Foles. 

 

This fantasy football mentality is really not good for the sport.  Football is a team game.  Always has been.  Always will be.  

[Stefanskins]

5 hours ago, Jumbo said:

the sports media is mainly about hyping themes up when they seem workable to keep viewers engaged ...it's just the basics...seize whatever theme is sellable in their minds and amplify/run with it while still trying to be credible in the process

 

what i'm saying here is media has an agenda all their own, and of course i'm not suggesting it's all built on deception---not even close---it's about highlighting and often spinning to serve a storyline

 

over and over and over, people tend to use most media sources in a certain manner...the post it when the piece serves their argument or position and criticize or minimize or flat out dismiss the same sources when they don't

 

the sports media in particular has to sell personalities, excitement, interest, and any form of intrigue or controversy they can find and every year we have 'media-hyped' storylines that don't see fruition and often even go in an opposite direction...and those same sources will then say "well that's the nfl, ya never know, everything looked like it was going this way and then it didn't", and they're still being fair enough in doing so

 

even facts stats and data will often get spun or just presented without all relevant context for a solid analysis

 

this is it about not blowing off justified praise for th to be clear again, of which there is  a lot, or sayin 'don't believe anything they say'...i'm being mindful of reality

 

we have eyes, brains, and watch football a lot ourselves, but we're also more emotionally-driven when it comes to sports and detaching from that for objective analysis isn't that much of a norm ime, especially when hot button topics like head coaches,, owners, qbs and high draft picks etc. are the focus of the story

 

just fwiw as i see so many articles being 'put into evidence'

 

without inferring anything about the sources, i know that many pick any halfway decent source and post it if it supports the view, yet the same folks don't routinely use that source (or often any others) in arguments where they're not all 'energized' by emotion

 

in the meantime, this view of mine will not affect my enjoyment, appreciation, or hope for th to be the guy...who really wouldn't if he can do it?   

Yes, I believe it’s innate…200,000+ years of tribalism vrs less than 10,000 years of “civilization”…and any programming/propaganda, be it for money or control, knows that “us against them”(tribalism) in any capacity is how you acheive your goals…from macro to micro…

[Stefanskins]

5 hours ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

 

Another interesting Bradshaw quote...

 

"Taylor Heinicke has something...we don't know what that is...but..."

Determination…

[Stefanskins]

4 hours ago, mistertim said:

Controlling the clock and pounding the ball simply isn't a long term winning formula these days.

It is when you are also scoring…since the first time a football was snapped…lol and before even that…

[PartyPosse]

18 minutes ago, ThomasRoane said:

 

My son played QB.  Was a very good one in the City of Hampton.  I told him to be careful.  QB's get too much credit and too much blame.  That's just how it is.  But learned very early how dependent he was on his O-line, backs, and receivers.  There is no QB who is going to lead a crappy team to a Super Bowl victory.  The left Tackle doesn't care who the QB is or where he's from.  As long as he can help him win a Super Bowl.  Same for the Center.  The Left Guard.  The #1 Receiver.  The defense.  The punter.  The Kicker.  They don't care about a QB's pedigree.  All that matters is whether or not that QB can help them win a Super Bowl.  

 

Who do you think the Super Bowl winning Eagles players appreciate more?  Nick Foles (still bouncing around from team to team) or Carson Wentz the high draft pick?  Foles got hot and helped them win a Super Bowl ring.  They will always prefer Foles. 

 

This fantasy football mentality is really not good for the sport.  Football is a team game.  Always has been.  Always will be.  

Again, this was a dominant bucs team that was good before Brad came aboard. He was the right fit for that team, no doubt about that, but that's not because Brad the QB was the missing piece. He wasn't going to find the same success in Washington because the team wasn't the contender Tampa Bay was. 

 

As for the Eagles, I think that's a pretty bold assumption. Wentz was an MVP candidate and he put his body on the line that season. I have no idea where you come up with the idea that the team appreciates Foles more. 

[mistertim]

18 minutes ago, ThomasRoane said:

 

This fantasy football mentality is really not good for the sport.  Football is a team game.  Always has been.  Always will be.  

 

It's absolutely a team game, but some positions are far far more valuable and impactful than others. At the moment quarterback is possibly the single most important position in professional sports in general, not just in football.

 

A HoF QB with a decent OL and receivers can make you a perennial contender. A HoF left tackle and receiver with a string of poor to mediocre QBs will more than likely get you two HoF jackets and a ham sandwich.

[ThomasRoane]

 

Quote

 

How Taylor Heinicke acts in the huddle reminds Ron Rivera of a few other QBs | RSN (nbcsports.com)

 

Ron Rivera will sometimes make a point of watching Taylor Heinicke as he gets into the center of Washington's huddle in a given practice or game, and that's when he sees it.

The way Heinicke communicates to his offensive teammates — both instructing them and instilling confidence in them — is something that Rivera finds "impressive," as he put it on Monday. And it's reminding the coach of a few other passers he's worked with in his long career.

"I watched Philip Rivers do it," Rivera, who once was the defensive coordinator for the Chargers, told reporters. "How he would talk and watch and look at everybody and make sure that as he's making the call, that guys that need to know specifically what he's saying, he's looking at."

Rivera then went on to bring up someone Heinicke recently worked with.

"Alex Smith did that last year," Rivera said.

Heinicke, Rivers and Smith are all their own kind of signal-caller with their own attributes, but they do overlap in some ways. None of the three would be labeled as having a seriously strong arm yet, as Rivera explained, they were (or in Heinicke's case, are) able to overcome that by emerging as likable leaders who can act as a distributor thanks to their knowledge and awareness.

 

 

Wildbunny posted this article in breaking news.  If Heinicke keeps stacking up these intangibles and wins then I don't think it's gonna matter who the FO is looking at in college.  Heinicke will make it difficult to move him back to the bench.

 

They should always be drafting a QB of course.  But I don't see the competition affecting Heinicke at all.  He seems to thrive under pressure.  Bringing in Fitz this year at ten mill certainly didn't seem to bother him.  

[zCommander]

4 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

I get it, but that's mostly not going to happen nowadays unless you happen to have an unstoppable All-Pro RB like Derrick Henry. The league has changed in many ways in the past 30 years. If you want to watch a bunch of smash mouth games of ball control and running you might be better off just watching replays from the 80s and 90s. The game has moved on and pretty much every coach and FO recognizes that now. It's a passing and QB driven league, whether we like it or not. 

 

You do not need an unstoppable RB. Balance is the key. Airing it out is not going to win you a lot of football game no matter how much you think it is a passing and QB league. Did Brady win 7 SB rings because he could air it out? Brady has always moved the chains 5-20 yards at a time. How many times have you seen Brady air it out like Bret Farve? The answer is zero. Brady is all about timing and the short stuff and yes the running game. 

 

The Brady example is not from the 80s or the 90s.

 

[PartyPosse]

12 minutes ago, zskins said:

 

You do not need an unstoppable RB. Balance is the key. Airing it out is not going to win you a lot of football game no matter how much you think it is a passing and QB league. Did Brady win 7 SB rings because he could air it out? Brady has always moved the chains 5-20 yards at a time. How many times have you seen Brady air it out like Bret Farve? The answer is zero. Brady is all about timing and the short stuff and yes the running game. 

 

The Brady example is not from the 80s or the 90s.

 

Brady had some pretty meh run games from Maroney to Vereen to Ridley to Benjarvis-Green Ellis. The best RBs he had were the ones he could incorporate into the passing game, like Woodhead, White and Dion Lewis.

[zCommander]

1 minute ago, PartyPosse said:

Brady had some pretty meh run games from Maroney to Vereen to Ridley to Benjarvis-Green Ellis. The best RBs he had were the ones he could incorporate into the passing game, like Woodhead, White and Dion Lewis.

 

Yeah they didn't have any stout RBs at all but running was still part of the game plan. I don't remember Brady just airing it out in any of his games though. I would have to go back 18 years and see how he played when he was in his second year. 

[zCommander]

3 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

It's absolutely a team game, but some positions are far far more valuable and impactful than others. At the moment quarterback is possibly the single most important position in professional sports in general, not just in football.

 

A HoF QB with a decent OL and receivers can make you a perennial contender. A HoF left tackle and receiver with a string of poor to mediocre QBs will more than likely get you two HoF jackets and a ham sandwich.

 

The Manning brothers only have 2 each SB rings. Not really perennial when they started though. I would say they were good and Eli just happen to ride to SB wins on his defense backs. They are HoF'ers though. Outside of Brady who are the perennial contenders? 

 

 

Edited November 24, 2021 by zskins

[mistertim]

1 hour ago, zskins said:

 

You do not need an unstoppable RB. Balance is the key. Airing it out is not going to win you a lot of football game no matter how much you think it is a passing and QB league. Did Brady win 7 SB rings because he could air it out? Brady has always moved the chains 5-20 yards at a time. How many times have you seen Brady air it out like Bret Farve? The answer is zero. Brady is all about timing and the short stuff and yes the running game. 

 

The Brady example is not from the 80s or the 90s.

 

 

The league is way more pass happy than in the past. Pass first would essentially be an alien term in the 80s.

 

I think you're using the phrase "air it out" to mean tons of deep bombs. That's not what I mean. It's just passing much more often than in previous generations of NFL play and focusing your offense much more around passing. Doesn't matter whether it's short or intermediate or deep. Brady is Brady because he's an elite passer, not because he was part of offenses with dominant run first "smashmouth" offenses.

 

It's a pass heavy league now. And I doubt there's a single current NFL coach who would harumph at that and claim it's the same now as it was in the 80s and 90s. Everyone knows this. I don't get why people are even debating it. Fans know it, coaches know it, GMs know it, owners know it. If it weren't, then RBs would still be premier positions taken in the 1st round instead of being closer to afterthoughts that rarely get picked before the 2nd.

Edited November 24, 2021 by mistertim

[skins island connection]

5 hours ago, ThomasRoane said:

 

Consider the history of this franchise.  Washington has been trying to find that top end QB since Sammy Baugh.  There has only been one year wonders.  Even in the three Super Bowl victories.  I'm okay with that as a goal but let's not be naive and pretend that it's an easy thing to do.  

 

In the meantime, look how many QB's the owner has forced upon coaching staffs.  Jeff George, Ramsey, McFlabb, RG III (Shanahans wanted to stay put and draft Tannehill - who is still playing btw), and Haskins.  You don't think he'll get bored and force RR's hand if the team struggles?  

 

I'm tired of seeing QBs that weren't good enough for Snyder go and have success elsewhere.  Don't think the fanbase would forgive a repeat with Heinicke.  Especially if he continues to improve.  

 

 Well the only problem with this is that there's really only 1 QB who has been going to SBs on a consistent basis, and then the well runs dry. Besides, actually catching lightning in a bottle by finding one of these 'potential QBs' is only part of the battle; they need a proven, creative, intelligent, psychologically sound coaching staff to even have the remote chance of accomplishing multiple SB trips, and lets be honest, the current coaching staff isn't known for their 'creativeness'...