Larry Brown #43 Posted January 1, 2004 Share Posted January 1, 2004 Originally posted by Art DING Jimbo. Someone else gets it. Thank you. So, the catch with hiring an established coach like Green or Fassel is that they almost certainly will want some level of control over personnel. Perhaps only from August to January, but they will want to be the decision maker in some way. Everyone screams and hollers that this is a GOOD idea because ABC is in effect. Anybody but Cerrrato. Then, the same people CHEER whenever a possible GM type candidate comes into vision. Yes. Let's do that. Again, ABC. Anybody but Cerrato. It's easy. But, if we hire a legitimate, strong, GM, we're going to essentially NIX hiring a legitimate, strong head coach like Green or Fassel at this point. Art, As I understand it -- and I could be mistaken -- in most organizations, the GM selects the talent that comes to training camp, and the coach selects the final roster from that group to take into the season. So, I would imagine even a "strong" GM would not have a major problem with allowing his coach to finalize the team's roster after the GM acquires the talent in the offseason. Besides, I think a coach like Fassel or Green would be a little more flexible about relinquishing some personnel authority if he were relinquishing it to a GM he has respect for. I don't think Vinny fits that description. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
riggins44 Posted January 1, 2004 Share Posted January 1, 2004 Originally posted by Larry Brown #43 Art, As I understand it -- and I could be mistaken -- in most organizations, the GM selects the talent that comes to training camp, and the coach selects the final roster from that group to take into the season. So, I would imagine even a "strong" GM would not have a major problem with allowing his coach to finalize the team's roster after the GM acquires the talent in the offseason. Besides, I think a coach like Fassel or Green would be a little more flexible about relinquishing some personnel authority if he were relinquishing it to a GM he has respect for. I don't think Vinny fits that description. I completely agree. This is what was trying to point out in my post. I feel that Fassel or Green could work with a GM or maybe even Vinny, if they were given the final say over the roster. No way should Vinny or the GM have a say so in roster cuts. The coach needs to make the decision. It's his team and he wants guys he feels comfortable with. That is poor business and just isn't right or fair to the man you hire to produce a winner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andre The Giant Posted January 1, 2004 Share Posted January 1, 2004 An Allen hire would go a long way to restablishing professionalism and dignity to the Redskins organization. Whatever you might think about the Raiders, they have been very successful there in recent years (excluding '03, of course). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonnyJ Posted January 1, 2004 Share Posted January 1, 2004 Just playing devil's advocate - how do we know that Allen is well-respected around the league? How do we know that he isn't another perceived lap-dog for Davis as Vinny is for Snyder? Most importantly, given the Raiders make-up, and his father's philosophy, how do we know he won't sell out the younger players/draft picks for older players? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted January 1, 2004 Share Posted January 1, 2004 Larry and Riggins, You're both right that with many organizations the coach decides -- even absolutely -- the composition of their roster. This can be an effective method in which to function. I actually want ANY coach to have FREE reign to make roster decisions during the year, especially in the case of release for performance reasons. Though that's not how it works most places. Most places the coach can bench and suspend, but can't release. Only the front office can. Regardless, I've always thought the coach should have greater authority from August through January than the GM on any well functioning team. We didn't have that, obviously. We had true equals with the coach and the GM and the owner ultimately decided the merits of the case. Look at Sultan McCullough and Kenny Watson. Here is a classic example of where you don't want a coach making a decision. Though Spurrier was ON RECORD saying he wanted to find a way to keep Sultan because we all knew the risk of releasing him, there was some debate that the Watson cut came down to a simple choice between the two. Sultan is a greater talent in ever conceivable way than Watson. What level of heart and desire he has is yet to be seen. But, Sultan has the type of burst and HISTORY as a running back to believe he might have some upside. Watson was a receiver, converted to running back who seemed to have great work ethic and desire, but limited upside. Obviously, you WANT players like Watson around. But, only where there's a question that they'll play. There was none here. You had Betts, Canidate, Morton, Rock and Johnson filling out your active running back roster. Watson wasn't going to be ahead of any of them whether we thought it possible or not. Essentially you are talking about an inactive level player or a practice squad player. A guy you aren't counting on to help right away but you are counting on to develop. You weren't going to keep an active spot for Watson. You weren't for Sultan. Who best fit that role on the team? Obviously Sultan did. You simply don't surrender on that sort of potential by even chancing he can go anywhere else. Sultan had runs in the preseason that were of the sort you just don't see much in the NFL. The sort where there was NO WHERE to go but his sheer, unmatched speed managed yards. He may fail totally in this league, but you simply DO NOT release a project like this unless it comes down to active roster positions. Many experienced coaches would agree with this which is why it might not be a big deal with another coach. But Spurrier didn't seem to get it. He wanted to cut the project from the roster spot FOR a project in favor of a guy with limited upside who was ideal for the roster if you actually intended to play him, which, in our case, you didn't because of the depth chart ahead of him. You sometimes need a clear mind to step in and help in those decisions. And in other ways, you sometimes don't. Obviously the Wuerffel release was very stupid. It didn't matter what fear the front office had about his roster spot suddenly evolving into a starters role. The MOMENT he signed everyone admitted Johnson looked better. He needed the threat behind him to move him. The moment Wuerrfel signed you had a guy who could tell Ramsey some things. Point out some things. To be a guide. You didn't have that in Johnson. You weren't talking about a roster spot that could go to anyone else either. This was an inactive spot basically in case of emergency. Even if it became more, you simply don't take that away from the coach who NEEDS it to guide your young QB. So, one decision was incredibly smart by the front office to overrule the coach. The other was incredibly stupid. It was then. It is now. Spurrier was not a guy I wanted having any final say over personnel because he didn't even know guys names. He didn't know personnel. The next coach I'd probably be more forgiving. . Assuming he knows something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
riggins44 Posted January 1, 2004 Share Posted January 1, 2004 Art, you touched on one thing about Spurrier that I believe was his downfall. That was he didn't know the names of a lot of his players. Parcells on the other hand has a personal relationship with every player on his team. This is why the lay it all on the line for him. To me this is what I would call a players coach. In any organization the boss needs to know everyone's name and speak to them daily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riggo-toni Posted January 1, 2004 Share Posted January 1, 2004 Maybe I'm just paranoid, but I get the feeling that most of the leaks to the press that had been negative towards Spurrier were leaked by Vinnyboy as part of a power ploy, much like Turner and Casserly supposedly started spreading bad blood about each other behind the scenes their last year together. Art, I think Cerrato is good at evaluating pro talent - we saw that not only with the Jetskins, but even going back to his pickup of Sims and Andy Heck at bargain prcies back in '99. My issue with him and Snyder is prioritizing positions, namely the lines. Last year we neglected the OL until the last minute, and ended up throwing away draft picks to get scrubs (i.e. Loverne) when better choices (i.e. Brown) had been available earlier as free agents. The same mistake was made this year on the DL. Granted, it was a wise decision not to give up the farm for Gardener, but putting off resolution of BDW until the last minute was inexcusable and what really cost us the season. Again, we p!ssed away a couple lower round draft picks to pick up 2nd rate guys instead of digging up better FAs earlier. Having someone like Allen who is not such a sycophant vis a vis Dannyboy could, if nothing else, be the voice of reason to make sure our FO stops handing out gold bars to LBs while pinching pennies over DTs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavyDave Posted January 1, 2004 Share Posted January 1, 2004 I'm not that thrilled about allen and part of it is that the raiduhs lean too heavily on vets at the expense of the rooks and younger players. The raiduhs are an old team and they may be best served kickin woodson to the curb Romeo appears to have the flexibility and patience to coach up the rooks and have confidence to give them playing time. Imagine opposing teams with no blueprint for our defense because we have a different scheme week to week and we are effective in them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimboDaMan Posted January 1, 2004 Share Posted January 1, 2004 Originally posted by Larry Brown #43 Art, As I understand it -- and I could be mistaken -- in most organizations, the GM selects the talent that comes to training camp, and the coach selects the final roster from that group to take into the season. So, I would imagine even a "strong" GM would not have a major problem with allowing his coach to finalize the team's roster after the GM acquires the talent in the offseason. Besides, I think a coach like Fassel or Green would be a little more flexible about relinquishing some personnel authority if he were relinquishing it to a GM he has respect for. I don't think Vinny fits that description. My understanding is that Denny Green has always made no secret of his desire to be effectively the GM as well as the coach. There's no flexibility at all there as far as I can tell. Fassell might be a different story, I don't know his tendencies that well, but he certainly has been making noise in that direction. For better or for worse, it seems a move to hire a GM will deter the established coaches from joining up. While we're at it, I want to point out that for the right candidate the Washington Redskins HC position is a coach's dream. Seldom has a team with as much talent performed as poorly. Fix the discipline problems, use that #5 draft position to shore up the defensive line, get this team to play focussed ball. For the right guy the sky's the limit, and he gets 100% of the credit since the previous 3 could not. Please do not tell me that Snyder "meddling" in the Watson and Wuerffel situations had anything to do with guys showing up late for practice, horrendous QB protection, innumerable false starts, or linebackers out of position repeatedly. Snyder can "meddle" to his heart's content with 3rd string and practice squad players, but if you get a coach who can motivate and lead the Redskins will see a dramatic turnaround. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wicked Wop Posted January 1, 2004 Share Posted January 1, 2004 Hey Navy, we won a superbowl with an old team, and they almost did to......fact is that they should have started to purge their roster last offseason but didn't....they were hoping to get one more run out of these guys but didn't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
riggins44 Posted January 1, 2004 Share Posted January 1, 2004 The more I think about this search, the more I like Fassel. Of the candidates mentioned, he knows this team the best. He would have the best idea on what he needs to turn this team around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ljer Posted January 1, 2004 Share Posted January 1, 2004 Originally posted by riggins44 The more I think about this search, the more I like Fassel. Of the candidates mentioned, he knows this team the best. He would have the best idea on what he needs to turn this team around. I'm starting to feel this way too. Looks like he's the best of an average bunch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
riggins44 Posted January 1, 2004 Share Posted January 1, 2004 The one postive out of all of this...is that Stock and Helton will be gone. Maybe we'll have real assistant coaches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang Posted January 1, 2004 Share Posted January 1, 2004 I'd take Bruce Allen. But Denny Green doesn't work with GMs... he likes that duty himself.. ~Bang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted January 1, 2004 Share Posted January 1, 2004 Originally posted by riggo-toni Maybe I'm just paranoid, but I get the feeling that most of the leaks to the press that had been negative towards Spurrier were leaked by Vinnyboy as part of a power ploy, much like Turner and Casserly supposedly started spreading bad blood about each other behind the scenes their last year together. Art, I think Cerrato is good at evaluating pro talent - we saw that not only with the Jetskins, but even going back to his pickup of Sims and Andy Heck at bargain prcies back in '99. My issue with him and Snyder is prioritizing positions, namely the lines. Last year we neglected the OL until the last minute, and ended up throwing away draft picks to get scrubs (i.e. Loverne) when better choices (i.e. Brown) had been available earlier as free agents. The same mistake was made this year on the DL. Granted, it was a wise decision not to give up the farm for Gardener, but putting off resolution of BDW until the last minute was inexcusable and what really cost us the season. Again, we p!ssed away a couple lower round draft picks to pick up 2nd rate guys instead of digging up better FAs earlier. Having someone like Allen who is not such a sycophant vis a vis Dannyboy could, if nothing else, be the voice of reason to make sure our FO stops handing out gold bars to LBs while pinching pennies over DTs. RT, of all the things to worry about, this is the ABSOLUTE LEAST of our worries. Snyder surrounds himself with men he can trust. There are NO leaks from his side. Period. He keeps a tight ship. Those close to him who are in position to burn him would be revealed by the nature of the leak so you can be sure Cerrato's not leaking anything to anyone. We didn't wait until the last minute to attempt to fix the offensive last year, just as we didn't wait until the last minute to fix the defensive line this year. We got some key injuries during the preseason that put us in a weaker position than we'd hoped and we had to adjust accordingly. The Big Daddy situation was an interesting one. We had no leverage prior to training camp. There was no pressure on Big Daddy until his teammates were out there working on him. When we got to that point we tried to work out a deal where he'd have gotten EVERY penny of his contract, only some of it would be in the form of actually playing well first. He said no so we cut him and he took less money to play elsewhere. I think it was a generally good move -- though it weakened us as a football team -- to do this because it shows we're not going to bluff even when it appears we need the player more than he needs us. We did, however, sign Upshaw, Haley and Noble before the draft. It happened that Upshaw was slow to recover from an injury, Noble got hurt early and Haley was lost during the season. That stuff happens. But, it's not like we didn't make some moves to add competence and depth to the line early. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Posted January 1, 2004 Share Posted January 1, 2004 Originally posted by Bang I'd take Bruce Allen. But Denny Green doesn't work with GMs... he likes that duty himself.. ~Bang It's funny that I hear everyone saying that, yet when Green was on ESPNEWS the host asked him what he was looking for in a head coaching job. He didn't say he wanted to be the GM or have all the control but he did say would would want a GM that was thinking along the same lines. He also stated that the owner, GM and coach should be on the same page. So that would appear to me that he would work with a GM as long as they have a similar approach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Even Madder Posted January 1, 2004 Share Posted January 1, 2004 The funniest part about wanting to go after Bruce Allen is that in rejection of Cerrato, time and again, many of you scream out 5-11, as if it's Cerrato's problem. Oakland picks ahead of us and won less than us. Why is no one screaming 4-12 to reject Allen? Or, is it JUST Cerrato who is responsible for how his team is coached while no one else is? Uhhh... the Raiders were in the Superbowl last year, remember? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Even Madder Posted January 1, 2004 Share Posted January 1, 2004 Art: just as we didn't wait until the last minute to fix the defensive line this year. I think your love affair with Vinny is getting out of hand. Here's the truth: March 1: Carl Powell signs with Bengals. March 2: Skins sign Brandon Noble, Regan Upshaw. March 5: Redskins player-of-the-year Daryl Gardener signs with the Broncos. April 25: Haley signs with Skins. May 13: Peppi Zellner signs with Skins. July 24: Bernard Holsey signs with Skins. July 29: Redskins cut Big Daddy. August 9: Skins blown out, 20-0, by Panthers. Stephen Davis rushes for 74 yards on 7 carries and the Skins DL is blown off the line even with Brandon Noble. Here's what Bruce Smith said after that loss: "We should have kept one of those two defensive tackles, either Gardener or Big Daddy," Smith said. "It's the reason we're in the situation we're in right now. "The best decision for us is to go out and get Big Daddy or someone comparable, because right now we're just a little short. We've got to stop this run. We've got to stop this run or it's going to be a long year." August 16: Brandon Noble blows out knee early in another losing preseason game. One month after they cut Big Daddy, just before the season starts, the Skins realize the DL is pathetic and scramble to fill the holes on the DT: August 20: Trade for Martin Chase. August 26: Trade for Lional Dalton. Hard to argue that's anything but last minute. Gardener and backup Powell were gone in early March, and the Skins plugged in significant downgrades in Noble, Upshaw, Haley, and Zellner, but at least they did something. It was cutting Big Daddy that was truly last minute and caused the panicked last minute flurry of activity. Losing Noble hurt, but they were pretty awful even with him. Think what you want about Smith, but he was right about it being a loooooong year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted January 2, 2004 Share Posted January 2, 2004 EM, We signed Upshaw, Noble and Haley before the April draft. If you think that's scrambling, you're losing your mind chief. . I don't really care what Bruce Smith says about a lot of things. I do kind of care what you say however. Remember what you said about releasing Wilkinson? We just used his money to resign Lavar instead of Champ and can still get Champ. Life is being mapped out just as you asked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbooma Posted January 2, 2004 Share Posted January 2, 2004 Originally posted by Art The funniest part about wanting to go after Bruce Allen is that in rejection of Cerrato, time and again, many of you scream out 5-11, as if it's Cerrato's problem. Art don't cry it is about time Danny wakes up from the drugs that Vinny gave him. At least you and Vinny can go play raquetball now :laugh: :laugh: Allen would be a great addition to this team. I just pray that Snyder is letting Green or Fassel know he is thinking of doing this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted January 2, 2004 Share Posted January 2, 2004 JB, Sounds like the rumors right now on Allen are for him to come in not in a personnel position, but more of an overall management spot. Could change, but right now that's what it appears to look like if it even is remotely true at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilgamesh Posted January 2, 2004 Share Posted January 2, 2004 Originally posted by Art JB, Sounds like the rumors right now on Allen are for him to come in not in a personnel position, but more of an overall management spot. Could change, but right now that's what it appears to look like if it even is remotely true at this point. Even if he were here in a role simmilar to Mendes' (cap and contract management), that would be an improvement over what we have now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrangeSkin Posted January 2, 2004 Share Posted January 2, 2004 Art, that post of yours was way over my head and I know you're a lot smarter than me, so you've probably already shot down what I'm about to say but I'll say it anyway. Based on everything I've read and seen for myself, Cerrato is holding this franchise back and must go as soon as possible. Spurrier hated him and I don't see us getting a legitimate GM in here, such as Allen, until Vinny goes. The structure of our front office is royally screwed up and nothing can get done because we have so many hands in the pot. Bringing Allen would just lead to FOUR way ties on draft day between the new coach, Allen, Snyder, and Snyder's b!tch. This thing can't be cleaned up until Cerrato packs his bags. We can argue about semantics all we want; a Watson here, a Sultan there, but the bottom line is that Cerrato has never done anything to earn his substantial paycheck in his time here. He's merely a smokescreen for Dan the fan to do as he pleases. Every prospective coach, every GM, and every owner in the league knows it. The fans are just starting to find out. Forgive me if it sounds like I'm going overboard, but a large portion of this team's inability to move forward can be traced back to Vinny "White Shirt" Cerrato. As far as I'm concerned, his talent evalution isn't all that impressive anyway. Put any 'Skins fan with rudimentary knowledge of the roster in that position and they would've made the same moves that Cerrato did this past offseason. Need a guard? Well, that Randy Thomas is pretty good. How about a WR? Well, that Coles is emerging. The negatives during Cerrato's reign of terror far outweight any positives. Darrell Russell, Byron Chamberlain, and the hasty gathering of second and third-rate D-lineman in week four of the preseason comes to mind. I want to believe that this franchise can move forward with Cerrato at the helm, but he's really gumming up the works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted January 2, 2004 Share Posted January 2, 2004 Orange, Initially when I heard Allen's name mentioned as coming here I responded to a thread that I couldn't imagine Vinny could survive that as Allen would probably be the personnel guy. Rumors now seem to be suggesting that Allen would be an overseer, but not the personnel guy directly. How is Cerrato holding the franchise back though is what I need to get from people. By any and all accounts he was primarily in charge of the offseason this last offseason. Not the previous two. Cerrato had a great offseason this year. The Redskins did because of the planning and execution of what Cerrato put forth. No one said it was complete. But it was certainly a progressively building offseason where you could identify clear positions that had been solidified for years to come. Others remain. I don't disagree with you that you won't be able to get a big time real GM if Cerrato is here. I think that's PRECISELY true. I just don't think anything that happened this past offseason would indicate that we want anyone but Cerrato running things. When he screws the pooch, then we'll be on safer ground riding him for it. Until then, we should at least remember that ALL of us loved this offseason. We all saw the planning for the future and wonderful execution. No one was down on what this team did in the offseason. We may have all realized not everything was complete. But we were upbeat about the direction. It's hard to pretend now that he's the problem when we all loved what we did with him running the show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrangeSkin Posted January 2, 2004 Share Posted January 2, 2004 Art - I'm not opposed to specific moves Cerrato has made, such as the Coles signing, but this franchise does not have a direction with Cerrato at the helm. We had needs, and Cerrato filled them. Goody. But I just get the feeling that he doesn't know what he's doing. Coles was probably the biggest name available at WR which was obviously a need of ours, but if we had Randy Moss and Marvin Harrison at the same position he STILL would've pursued Coles. It wasn't about filling the need; it was about making a splash. Case in point: Trotter. We were basically set with Kevin Mitchell at MLB, and we still went out and broke the bank for Trotter. We could cut him today and not miss a beat with Mitchell. I really want to believe that the hearts of our front office are in the right place, but they're not. Cerrato's second term in the front office hasn't shown anything in terms of a plan. It's merely shown that he's still attracted to bright shiny things. As good as the big stars may look at first glance, Vinny has neglected to surround them with blue-collar role players, something most of us around here have been clamoring for. The biggest star on the Patriots is the kicker, and they're 14-2. What does that tell you? There is no plan. The plan is to bring in as many stars as possible, give them a retread coach, and tell them to go pitch it around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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