Redskins Fans: Let’s Stop Being Pansies

[goskins10]

3 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

We can blame Dan for all we want to, but hes basically been hands off since we dumped RG3. I think Jay does a good job working with our FO. Bruce is certainly an issue with his cheap ass. You can argue the Smith trade being bad, but we're competing and our corners look good, so it wasn't an awful move. 

 

Cowboys have a garbage owner and their fanbase isn't collapsing. Raiders have had worse teams, similar competitors for the fans and much worse coaching and ownership. And they're moving again to an even more transient town.

 

There's several issues affecting the Redskins fanbase. I dont think they're pansies, I just think it's a fading brand.

 

I think the blame to Dan is non-football related. As someone else pointed out he has created an organization that fairly or not is seem as arrogant and to be looking down on it's fan-base. And to be just squeezing out $s in the most ignorant of ways - parking comes to mind. 

 

While the Raiders and Cowboys have bad owners in general, they at least appear to care about the fans and try to stay attached to the fan base in stead of maintaining a position of arrogance. 

 

I firmly believe an owner that tried to reach out to the fans, even if the product on the field was not the best, the fan-base would return. Right now many of us are not proud of what the Redskins organization represents not just in football but as a business in the community. I do not see that with those other organizations - although Oakland will be tested when they move to Las Vegas. 

[Koolblue13]

@goskins10 that's a very good point. It also explains the out of town point.

 

The Raiders move to a city more transient than DC will be telling. Although, I lived there for the xfl year and they absolutely had a home field advantage. 

 

A game in Vegas for any fan is going to be an amazing experience. 

 

I wonder. If Snyder sold the team, would fans come back. If he sold it and it moved. If he kept it and it moved, etc. No idea.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

On 10/17/2018 at 2:13 AM, Rdskns2000 said:

So, I guess Gruden has pansified me.

 

This is what's weird to me (no offense to you specifically, of course). 

 

I don't know how old you are, but we've had failed coach after failed coach here. No one has sustained any level of success. Since the glory years only Gibbs in his return has been to the playoffs more than once as a coach. Norv, Marty, Spurrier, Zorn, Shanahan, etc. Those guys FAILED. 

 

Gruden actually is the best chance we have at success because he's stabilized things. Everyone is entitled to their opinion on if he can get to the next level (I am not convinced yet myself), but to pin apathy or "pansification" on Gruden is odd. 

[Skinsinparadise]

33 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

@goskins10 that's a very good point. It also explains the out of town point.

 

The Raiders move to a city more transient than DC will be telling. Although, I lived there for the xfl year and they absolutely had a home field advantage. 

 

A game in Vegas for any fan is going to be an amazing experience. 

 

I wonder. If Snyder sold the team, would fans come back. If he sold it and it moved. If he kept it and it moved, etc. No idea.

 

I think if Snyder sold, initially it would spike some interest.   The Junkies are a bit mean spirited in a funny way when they talk about Dan or Bruce calling them both losers.   I think loser is harsh based on current circumstances maybe the better term is mediocre.   But they have a stigma attached that's hard to shake off.   I think that's filtered to many fans -- which is they don't trust the executives that they will figure it out and most aren't impressed that they might have unlocked the key to mediocre. 

 

Some of the people on the board think that some people here are too harsh on Dan-Bruce because mediocre is an improvement and maybe the next corner is about to be turned.  I think they are wrong about pumping up the mediocre part -- I'd hope in this league of parity, mediocre isn't something to be celebrated. Eventually teams will stumble on that.  Heck the perennially bad Lions -- discovered mediocre years back -- heck it looks like the Browns might have stumbled on it, too.  

 

However, if they turn that corner -- as you said winning cures all -- that will mean everything.  There has been too many false starts and promises I think for the more casual fan to buy into this team's potential -- the hey they might look like an 8-8 team but stick with it, the rainbow is on the horizon.   I think that's what Dan has squandered which is having faith that the best is coming.  I think now it either happens or not -- causal fans have stopped buying the narrative, they need to see the results.  

 

So to me its a crossroads type of season.  If they end up 8-8 or lower -- fan apathy will likely be static or become worse.  But if they make the playoffs and actually win a playoff game, I think you'd have enough people buy in. 

 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

18 hours ago, kleese said:

 

My personal feeling is that I matter more than any of them... seriously, at least in my world. I honestly don't even care about the players and coaches all that much-- they come and go... some become ingrained as legends and that is cool. That's when I feel like they join MY level. Guys like Joey T are the ones I fully accept into my level of Redskins-hood. There are others too... guys that I feel truly care deeply about the Redskins beyond any individual person, team, or entity. 

 

The reason I don't loathe Allen? Eh, because I was here before he was and I'll be here after he is gone (at least I hope so, I'm "only" 41). I can outlast them all. I never left to be part of the Bucs or Raiders organization. I stayed. And no, I'm not criticizing professionals for taking other jobs-- just illustrating my perspective. 

 

Snyder of course might be here for the rest of my days. While I don't find him as personally loathsome as others do and while I feel he gets most of his terrible rap from his terrible first five years or so, I certainly can't defend his record. There is literally nothing to defend. Literally no way you could build a case that he has done a good job. It's impossible. 

 

 

 

This is the key to me and something I've tried to articulate previously. 

 

Most people or things associated with the Redskins will pass through my timeline of being a fan. I'm one fan (as you say, the most important one in my world) yet I've rooted for a team that in my timeline will have had more than one owner, stadium, uniform combinations, coaches, players, etc. Hell, for a while there it looked like we might even have had more than one name in my lifetime. 

 

So, to me, my personal connection with the team is greater and more lasting than any specific member or aspect of it. 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

13 hours ago, kleese said:

 

Funny thing is I am actually a total pansy during the actual games. I make very little noise, never participate in “Defense” chants or anything like that. I don’t yell at refs. The games are excruciating for me. I writhe. I cuss under my breath. I have mini loud outbursts of happiness. I sigh. I sigh A LOT. My wife always points that one out. When at home, I pace. I pace A LOT. I am actually the personification of a pansy during games. 

 

I differentiate negativity, disappointment, anger, and even apathy as separate from self-loathing. It’s why I can’t stand Cubs fans. The whole “woe is us” lovable loser shtick was so played out. When they won the WS I honestly wondered if most of them were disappointed because what in the world would their identity be now? 

 

Holy ****, I think we may have been separated at birth. The 3 hours of a Redskins game are so excruciating for me. I do much of what you just described. I assume the worst, I complain, I pace, and I'm constantly nervous. I probably lose 3-4 pounds during a Redskins game (during the competitive aspect of a season). But somehow I look forward to that feeling!

 

It reminds me of Fever Pitch...something Jimmy Fallon said in that movie: 

 

It's good for your soul to invest in something you can't control. 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

1 hour ago, Koolblue13 said:

@goskins10 that's a very good point. It also explains the out of town point.

 

The Raiders move to a city more transient than DC will be telling. Although, I lived there for the xfl year and they absolutely had a home field advantage. 

 

A game in Vegas for any fan is going to be an amazing experience. 

 

I wonder. If Snyder sold the team, would fans come back. If he sold it and it moved. If he kept it and it moved, etc. No idea.

 

I think the biggest impact Snyder has is on how the team is covered. I don't think many individual fans are basing their support of the team on a single guy who barely does anything publicly. But, the perception of the team is negative and that trickles down to the fans too. 

 

I think a new owner would reset that and probably bring back some interest and positive vibes right off the bat...

[Koolblue13]

2 hours ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

I think the biggest impact Snyder has is on how the team is covered. I don't think many individual fans are basing their support of the team on a single guy who barely does anything publicly. But, the perception of the team is negative and that trickles down to the fans too. 

 

I think a new owner would reset that and probably bring back some interest and positive vibes right off the bat...

I think it would help. I'd think bringing in respected coaches like Shanny, Gruden, some coordinators,  having former players coming back around and being involved would help. If it was a tree, you'd think the roots are dead.

[OVCChairman]

2 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

I think it would help. I'd think bringing in respected coaches like Shanny, Gruden, some coordinators,  having former players coming back around and being involved would help. If it was a tree, you'd think the roots are dead.

 

 

 

I wanna say it feels like former players are getting more and more involved with the team.  That could just be that a handful of the favorites have become analysts, but I feel like former players (at least the ones that retired as Redskins) are more and more apparent with the doings of the team.  

[HardcoreZorn]

6 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

 

 

 

I wanna say it feels like former players are getting more and more involved with the team.  That could just be that a handful of the favorites have become analysts, but I feel like former players (at least the ones that retired as Redskins) are more and more apparent with the doings of the team.  

I would say culture around the team at least internally is slowly but steadily improving. I don't hear near as many ex players spout off about how poorly we treated them anymore like we used to. Or at least it feels that way.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

1 minute ago, HardcoreZorn said:

I would say culture around the team at least internally is slowly but steadily improving. I don't hear near as many ex players spout off about how poorly we treated them anymore like we used to. Or at least it feels that way.

 

Not only that, but we've had a few beg embarrassingly to come back (Baker, Gallette, etc.). 

[Koolblue13]

And yet less and less Redskins fans are in the stadium. 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Just now, Koolblue13 said:

And yet less and less Redskins fans are in the stadium. 

 

I think it's clear why the stadium is suddenly half-full right when the Skins embraced the fact that games aren't selling out. Rather than dumping thousands of tickets to the secondary market for pennies on the dollar, they are selling the to the public at face value. The same ticket that last year someone could have gotten for $17 the day before the game is now being sold by the team for face value. Of course fewer people will go. 

[OVCChairman]

1 minute ago, Koolblue13 said:

And yet less and less Redskins fans are in the stadium. 

 

 

This is not a defense of Bruce but the question can be presented....

 

 

Is that because the fans aren't willing to see and acknowledge that maybe the franchise is improving... and that current and former players are in fact seeing a marketable improvement in the franchise?  

[HardcoreZorn]

18 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

 

 

This is not a defense of Bruce but the question can be presented....

 

 

Is that because the fans aren't willing to see and acknowledge that maybe the franchise is improving... and that current and former players are in fact seeing a marketable improvement in the franchise?  

I know not directed at me but I truly think at this point the majority of fans are just fed up because the skins are going on 3 decades of terrible to mediocre. That's a looooooonggg time. So even if the process is changing, there will be little to no swing in fan outlook until the results on the field dramatically improve.

[OVCChairman]

2 minutes ago, HardcoreZorn said:

I know not directed at me but I truly think at this point the majority of fans are just fed up because the skins are going on 3 decades of terrible to mediocre. That's a looooooonggg time. So even if the process is changing, there will be little to no swing in fan outlook until the results on the field dramatically improve.

 

 

ok but scrolling back through the multiple pages of this exact thread, a large narrative has to do with the dysfunction of the franchise itself.  Losing is terrible, but as another posted on here pointed out... Cleveland has lost far more than we have.  Tampa Bay... Chicago... Cincinnati... there are teams out there that are WORSE than we are on the field...and that's sayin something.  Those teams have fanbases that continue to root.  Continue to show up... continue to fill the stadium and team events.  Redskins fans are some of the most passionate fans in the NFL, and even the most ravenous ones who get the most upset, tune in every week... or continued to carry their season tickets.  Winning cures everything, but losing is just a factor, not the kill shot.  

 

Being mediocre doesnt help, and it actually does muddy the waters.  That a losing franchise, even if it gets better as a franchise, isn't going to get noticed as quickly (or fairly) from a fan perspective, as it will from the inside out.  It's easy to love a good franchise when they're winning games... it's also easy to keep loving that franchise if they hit a low period.  When during that low period, the franchise turns... it's easy to turn on them... but it's not as easy to turn back once that damage is done... and winning is the best remedy for that... but there probably a lot of fans that have been turned, who arent willing to see a positive turn in the team... UNTIL it wins.  

[HardcoreZorn]

4 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

 

 

ok but scrolling back through the multiple pages of this exact thread, a large narrative has to do with the dysfunction of the franchise itself.  Losing is terrible, but as another posted on here pointed out... Cleveland has lost far more than we have.  Tampa Bay... Chicago... Cincinnati... there are teams out there that are WORSE than we are on the field...and that's sayin something.  Those teams have fanbases that continue to root.  Continue to show up... continue to fill the stadium and team events.  Redskins fans are some of the most passionate fans in the NFL, and even the most ravenous ones who get the most upset, tune in every week... or continued to carry their season tickets.  Winning cures everything, but losing is just a factor, not the kill shot.  

 

Being mediocre doesnt help, and it actually does muddy the waters.  That a losing franchise, even if it gets better as a franchise, isn't going to get noticed as quickly (or fairly) from a fan perspective, as it will from the inside out.  It's easy to love a good franchise when they're winning games... it's also easy to keep loving that franchise if they hit a low period.  When during that low period, the franchise turns... it's easy to turn on them... but it's not as easy to turn back once that damage is done... and winning is the best remedy for that... but there probably a lot of fans that have been turned, who arent willing to see a positive turn in the team... UNTIL it wins.  

 

I agree and disagree. Let's take the Browns for example. They are about as dysfunctional off the field as you can possibly be. Or at least pre John Dorsey and crew. Their fans loathe Haslam. So it goes deeper than that.

 

But I do agree that it's not just about on the field. It's about everything else. My (extremely unpopular) take is that the current dysfunction is way overblown. But it's overblown because of how dysfunctional we were in the past. Liken it to a junkie who finally straightens his stuff out and gets clean. Every little mishap is going to cause the family to go "here we go again!" even if he stays relatively clean but maybe has a hiccup here or there. In other words, our past causes everything to get magnified, and magnified in a negative light. We get very little benefit of the doubt, because of how truly incompetent we used to be. Externally as fans all we have to go on is what the beat guys say, what the local media says, etc. When you couple past transgressions with a FO that prefers to avoid engaging with the media at all costs AND continued mediocrity on the field (even if that's better than what it used to be), it's going to lead to a very negative slant which trickles down to the fan base. It would take sustained winning to turn that around and for some fans to go "hmmm maybe this is different." And that makes sense.

 

Now, internally, you know the ins and outs of how the franchise operates. The media is simply part of the job for them, but none of them get caught up or care about what the media actually says after the fact. They go off of what they know, since they are there. So win or lose, their feelings toward the franchise and how they have been treated can be totally different than what the fans impression is.

 

That's just my take. I do think things are different. I just think the media and fans on the outside are lagging behind and wont really reverse its stance until a consistent winner is established. DC is starved for a consistently good football team again.

[sparkosaurus]

Interesting post about fandom. I'll tell you a little story about my offseason this year....

 

I get really keyed up for Skins games. There was a period in time where I had a lot more money than I have today and had dream seats season tickets. I'd fly into DC from San Francisco for every game and I'd also do the Dallas game in Dallas. When you add up the hotels, airfare, rental cars, etc. I was probably spending about $30k a year on football. It was a dream come true and I was hyper-passionate about the team.

 

A lot of things have changed since those days. I live a rather modest life in Chicago these days and don't go to any games unless they're playing the Bears here and it's not absolutely freezing outside. So, basically, never. Anyway, the frustration I had around the team the last 5-6 years really came to a head last year. After the terrible way they handled Scot's exit, the way they screwed up the Kirk negotiations, etc. etc. I had really had enough. Losing on Sunday would make me ornery on Monday....it wasn't good. I also couldn't stand coming on here anymore. The negativity was something awful. My wife was getting fed up with the whole thing as well. 

 

It was at the end of last year that I had made the decision that I was going to follow Kirk. I was (and still am) a big fan of Kirk Cousins and if he went to SF I was going to be a Niners fan. When he signed with Minnesota, I figured I'd have to look good in purple. There was still a considerable amount of time between Kirk signing and the season starting so I had plenty of time to divest myself of all things Redskin and embrace all things Skol. And it wasn't going to be easy. I'm going to be 48 in a couple of weeks and I've been a Skins fan my entire life. That's not something you can just toss away like an old t-shirt. It took a lot of soulsearching to even consider leaving the Skins. 

 

Then things started to change....

 

Between Cousins' signing and the draft, I started looking for the "Extreme Skins" of the Vikings. Let me tell you....the other communities out there really blow. There were a lot of different Vikings boards and none of them came even close. I wasn't able to get comfortable around choosing one because I wanted it to be *the* board to be on....that was a problem for me.

 

Then came the draft....the Skins had a great draft, in my opinion, and I was really jazzed around Guice. At this point, I'm not sure what I'm going to do...am I staying with my perennial losers in the Skins or am I going to the favored-to-win-the-superbowl Vikings?? 

 

Much to my surprise it was my wife, of all people, who told me that I had to stay with the Skins. That it would be crazy to leave after all of this time. The funny thing is that she was a proponent of the switch early on but as it turns out, she wanted to see if I had the stones to actually do it. When it looked like I'd actually do it, she told me I was nuts.

 

Now, I enjoy the games again. Even when we lose games we should win. Look like a high school football team on national television. All of it. Having gone through the steps to finally put the Skins out of my life, it allowed me to understand and appreciate what it should be in my life....and I'm a much happier fan for it.

 

If anyone wants to question my (or anyone else's) dedication to a team, they can shove it. My relationship with the Skins is my personal business and mine alone. People who try to call others out for not being "true" fans need to stop trying to judge others, lest ye be judged.

 

Now let's go punch the Cowboys in the friggin mouth. HTTR!!!

 

 

 

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

17 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

 

What I meant was that fans are the first ones to make villains out of players and coaches when things go bad.  Head coach particularly.  Redskins fans always believe a new head coach will fix everything.  

 

That's really insightful. But I won't to build on this.

 

You know what other fan base is exactly like this.

 

EVERY ****ING SINGLE ONE OF THEM.

 

Thank you. You made an excellent point.

5 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

@goskins10 that's a very good point. It also explains the out of town point.

 

The Raiders move to a city more transient than DC will be telling. Although, I lived there for the xfl year and they absolutely had a home field advantage. 

 

A game in Vegas for any fan is going to be an amazing experience. 

 

I wonder. If Snyder sold the team, would fans come back. If he sold it and it moved. If he kept it and it moved, etc. No idea.

 

Raiders fans don't count.

 

I think 85 percent of Raiders fans have never been in Northern California. There fan base is basically every deviant with a crank addiction who likes that particular color scheme. There's a reason they sell a ton of merchandise but consistently play in front of no fans regardless of what city they are in.

 

The move to Vegas brilliant. All Raiders fans are paid in cash. So once they save up enough money, they can move their car - which doubles as their home - to Vegas for a few months.

 

 

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

9 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

We can blame Dan for all we want to, but hes basically been hands off since we dumped RG3. I think Jay does a good job working with our FO. Bruce is certainly an issue with his cheap ass. You can argue the Smith trade being bad, but we're competing and our corners look good, so it wasn't an awful move. 

 

Cowboys have a garbage owner and their fanbase isn't collapsing. Raiders have had worse teams, similar competitors for the fans and much worse coaching and ownership. And they're moving again to an even more transient town.

 

There's several issues affecting the Redskins fanbase. I dont think they're pansies, I just think it's a fading brand.

 

There is zero evidence that the Skins fanbase is collapsing.

 

There is a lot of evidence that the Skins fanbase doesn't like going to FedEx any longer.

 

Those are not the same things at all.

 

In 2018, I think all sports fandoms go through dormant periods based on the product on the field. People don't watch necessarily out of habit any longer. If you're bad or not interesting, you don't attract fans. If you are, you do.

17 hours ago, kleese said:

 

I differentiate negativity, disappointment, anger, and even apathy as separate from self-loathing. It’s why I can’t stand Cubs fans. The whole “woe is us” lovable loser shtick was so played out. When they won the WS I honestly wondered if most of them were disappointed because what in the world would their identity be now? 

 

You really really really really really really really really really hate it when restaurants put a lemon in your water.

 

I mean, you don't express it in any way.

 

But you are totally peeved.

[ToaCommander]

On 10/18/2018 at 5:09 AM, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said:

For instance, I support London based soccer club Arsenal. Last two or so seasons, the fans nearly staged a mutiny knee manager Arsene Wenger’s refusal to step down after 20 some years at the job. I wanted him gone to but as I started watching videos and vlogs from fans actually in North London, I realized that there was just some parts that even I couldn’t fully grasp onto because I live in another country. I still wake up super early on weekends to watch them play and live and die with every game tho. 

 

A fellow Gunners supporters 

[ToaCommander]

Great thread. I'm mostly an optimistic fan but that doesn't mean I don't get pissed if we lose. I understand the frustrations and as an out of state out of country fan, maybe I do not fully understand the ire of some fans towards the owner and management etc... 

 

But I would dearly love to attend a Redskins game at Fedex, maybe tailgate for the first in me life and talk redskins with fellow fans on here. Maybe next year.

 

Let beat Dallas.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

14 minutes ago, SamoaSkinz said:

 

A fellow Gunners supporters 

 

Ugh. You're also the worst.

[NickyJ]

5 hours ago, OVCChairman said:

I wanna say it feels like former players are getting more and more involved with the team.  That could just be that a handful of the favorites have become analysts, but I feel like former players (at least the ones that retired as Redskins) are more and more apparent with the doings of the team.  

Honestly, aside from media, I don't really like the idea of former players getting attached to the team in coaching roles. It sounds nice, sure, but it seems even more like it's good-old-boys culture. "Sure, yeah, you didn't make it with the other 5 teams you were on, but we're family!" I love you, Manusky, but your defense is sad. We've had others come through who I can't name off the top of my head, but they didn't stay because they weren't worth keeping.

[kleese]

3 hours ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

 

There is zero evidence that the Skins fanbase is collapsing.

 

There is a lot of evidence that the Skins fanbase doesn't like going to FedEx any longer.

 

Those are not the same things at all.

 

In 2018, I think all sports fandoms go through dormant periods based on the product on the field. People don't watch necessarily out of habit any longer. If you're bad or not interesting, you don't attract fans. If you are, you do.

 

You really really really really really really really really really hate it when restaurants put a lemon in your water.

 

I mean, you don't express it in any way.

 

But you are totally peeved.

 

Oh I express it... I specifically tell them no lemon... that’s gross.