Let's All Get Behind Alex Smith! Or Not!! (M.E.T.) NO kirk talk---that goes in ATN forum

[Veryoldschool]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I am rooting of course for Alex to succeed.  I am guessing Alex's biggest buzz is coming soon because he hasn't fallen yet in the top 100 players in the NFL ranking -- i am gathering he will end up top 20, since he's not been among the mentioned yet.  NFL Network has been replaying a lot of Chiefs this off season so I've watched my share of Alex and watched plenty of interviews. 

 

My take from all of that.   Alex is as nice a guy as Kirk was -- classy as heck.  Ironically I recall Scot once talking about Kirk and Alex's personality from his dealings with them and say both are super nice, super above board.  Alex is quieter than Kirk.  He's more of the cool Hand Luke type that Shanny in retrospect mislabled RG3 as.  

 

As players, I am purposely not going to say what I think each does better because I don't want to get dragged into a Kirk-Alex debate.  I'll just say this, I think they are of similar caliber.  Both quarterbacks have a potential fascinating narrative for entirely different reasons judging by both fans and critics of the players.

 

For Kirk to me its seems to be something like this

 

His Fans:

A.  Kirk was good in spite of having a weak running game and a weak defense.  Last year he didn't have a good supporting cast either because of injuries.  Imagine him with a real supporting cast?  Well now he has one.

 

His Critics:

B. Kirk is overrated and overpaid -- the Minny gig if anything will expose all of that.  With all of those weapons, he will still let them down.

 

For Alex to me it seems to be something like this

 

A.  Alex has a career year last year and the dude is only getting better.  What you saw in 2017 is a sneak preview of an even bigger and better year.   

 

B.  Alex's career year won't be matched.  He had one of the best TEs in the game, RB and WR corp.  He's always been limited  and that will be exposed in DC when he plays with a supporting cast that doesn't match his career year. 

 

Personally, I am a fan of both guys and rooting for both for entirely different reasons.  They are both classy guys who also have over the top critics who give them a harder time than they deserve.  I typically don't root for Redskins players when they leave -- but in this case I hope Kirk totally kicks butt next year.  To me Kirk's season if he explodes is a running commentary on Bruce/Dan's competence.   And perhaps exposing that would bring some needed change.  

 

 

 

 

14

 

I expect Kirk to do really well in Minnesota.  For the first time he won't have to carry a team.  The Vikings have a good defense and a running game plus Kirk will have an excellent crew of playmakers in Minnesota.  Kirk had talented receivers in DC but the Vikings crew is really terrific.  Injuries can undo any team's season but with decent health, I think the Vikings go to the Super Bowl, with my tired, fat, old ass riding on their bandwagon!  Philly will be great also but it is tough to repeat so I think Minnesota will make it.

 

As for the Skins if Alex Smith comes in and performs I don't think Allen or Snyder get a lot more grieve even if Cousins is red hot.  If Smith struggles and Cousins lights it up that is a different ball game, let's that isn't the case.  I'd like to see the Skins play .500 ball with the new guys performing well and my side team run the table!

[Gibbit]

**** krik

 

GO ALEX....year of the alex in DC  

[Renegade7]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I think in this situation though you can have your cake and eat it too.  I am relatively optimistic about the season but I don't think its a Superbowl roster.  If they just sneak in the playoffs and do their usual first round exit -- I think that's a good year with this roster.  I think they are another off season away.

 

Minny to me is built to win now.  So I don't think Kirk-Alex's paths ultimately collide but can you imagine if it did in a playoff game -- if so wow. 

 

My point is Alex and Kirk can have good years but the outcome for both is entirely different, regardless.  In my view if the 30 year old QB that they let go takes Minny to the Superbowl and or has a great year -- its a lose, lose for Bruce perception wise.  

 

Kirk is at what I believe the prime years for QBs.  Alex to me likely isn't for long.  I got no bone with anyone who thinks Alex is better or Kirk.  I see the argument either way.  My disagreement is all about the age.  So if Kirk burns it up at his age and has a bigger year than he had here -- I think it speaks volumes regardless of what Alex does -- unless the Redskins have a shock the world type of season.  Don't get me wrong I'd love a season like that but I am not expecting it.

 

Kirk is going to have a better season and likely win the Super Bowl, but I don't believe that's because he's better then Alex Smith.  That Vikings offense is loaded, they were shredding people, shredded us with Case Kennum FFS.  I'm already prepared to lose the perception battle on that one, but still glad we didn't pay him like that. 

 

I can live with Alex, we need someone not afraid of the line of scrimmage. I'm worried, like you, about when the dropoff will happen and not having the same level of talent as he did in KC.  That was my biggest gripe with the Alex Smith trade, we have a small window and a team that ain't ready.  We're going to have to overachieve and stay healthy for a playoff berth or the whole league is going to be doing this to us and deservedly so.

 

[Skinsinparadise]

4 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

Kirk is going to have a better season and likely win the Super Bowl, but I don't believe that's because he's better then Alex Smith.  That Vikings offense is loaded, they were shredding people, shredded us with Case Kennum FFS.  I'm already prepared to lose the perception battle on that one, but still glad we didn't pay him like that. 

 

I can live with Alex, we need someone not afraid of the line of scrimmage. I'm worried, like you, about when the dropoff will happen and not having the same level of talent as he did in KC.  That was my biggest gripe with the Alex Smith trade, we have a small window and a team that ain't ready.  We're going to have to overachieve and stay healthy for a playoff berth or the whole league is going to be doing this to us and deservedly so.

 

I agree with just about all of this.  The idea that its a good QB times great supporting cast = wins -- is a mantra for me.  So I agree with the premise of the point Kirk is bound to have a better year because of his supporting cast.  I am though a big Kirk guy, i think he's a very good QB.  I like Alex, too.  And I have the same concerns about Alex and to me it puts pressure on their roster to win now. 

 

1 hour ago, Veryoldschool said:

 

I expect Kirk to do really well in Minnesota.  For the first time he won't have to carry a team.  The Vikings have a good defense and a running game plus Kirk will have an excellent crew of playmakers in Minnesota.  Kirk had talented receivers in DC but the Vikings crew is really terrific.  Injuries can undo any team's season but with decent health, I think the Vikings go to the Super Bowl, with my tired, fat, old ass riding on their bandwagon!  Philly will be great also but it is tough to repeat so I think Minnesota will make it.

 

As for the Skins if Alex Smith comes in and performs I don't think Allen or Snyder get a lot more grieve even if Cousins is red hot.  If Smith struggles and Cousins lights it up that is a different ball game, let's that isn't the case.  I'd like to see the Skins play .500 ball with the new guys performing well and my side team run the table!

 

I am in the same place as you mostly.  Main difference is Minny isn't a side team for me.  But I've met Kirk multiple times, I like him and think he's an upstanding guy -- coupled with I don't like that we never IMO gave him a serious offer -- and I am not a Bruce guy.  I don't care for Dan either but I don't think he's going away so I have to be realistic.  I'll take my chances of replacing Bruce with someone else and hope for better as for who runs personnel.   Kirk to me is a running commentary on both Dan/Bruce.

 

I am not so sure Alex having a good year would equalize Kirk hoisting a Lombardi where fans would forgive the swap.  Part of the reason for that is its almost a mantra for Kirk haters and for the matter what's been leaked about why Bruce/Dan never gave Kirk a legit offer is because that he doesn't have what it takes to take a team to the promised land.  So if Kirk refuted that in one fell swoop in one season -- yeah I think Dan/Bruce would have to eat some crow.

[Veryoldschool]

14 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I agree with just about all of this.  The idea that its a good QB times great supporting cast = wins -- is a mantra for me.  So I agree with the premise of the point Kirk is bound to have a better year because of his supporting cast.  I am though a big Kirk guy, i think he's a very good QB.  I like Alex, too.  And I have the same concerns about Alex and to me it puts pressure on their roster to win now. 

 

 

I am in the same place as you mostly.  Main difference is Minny isn't a side team for me.  But I've met Kirk multiple times, I like him and think he's an upstanding guy -- coupled with I don't like that we never IMO gave him a serious offer -- and I am not a Bruce guy.  I don't care for Dan either but I don't think he's going away so I have to be realistic.  I'll take my chances of replacing Bruce with someone else and hope for better as for who runs personnel.   Kirk to me is a running commentary on both Dan/Bruce.

 

I am not so sure Alex having a good year would equalize Kirk hoisting a Lombardi where fans would forgive the swap.  Part of the reason for that is its almost a mantra for Kirk haters and for the matter what's been leaked about why Bruce/Dan never gave Kirk a legit offer is because that he doesn't have what it takes to take a team to the promised land.  So if Kirk refuted that in one fell swoop in one season -- yeah I think Dan/Bruce would have to eat some crow.

 

Do you really think there are many Redskin fans that will be shocked if Kirk Cousins wins a Super Bowl and is the Super Bowl MVP with the Vikings?  I guess a few knuckleheads but I don't think many serious Skin fans will be surprised.  Everyone knows he has the goods or they don't understand the game worth a lick.  I really think Allen and Snyder get a pass if Smith plays as well as Cousins did for the Skins.

 

Mind you, no one and I mean no one here valued Cousins more than me or detests Snyder more than me but if Smith performs I will be okay with the trade which is all they could've done in 2018.  I don't really know when they blew their chance with Cousins. I suspect when they welched on the on the public commitment SM made that they would overpay if he was able to repeat his 2015 performance, Kirk did even better and they low balled him and I think closed his heart to the Skins.  An unforgivable mistake but if Smith plays well it won't matter how well Cousins does with a better team.

[Skinsinparadise]

13 minutes ago, Veryoldschool said:

 

Do you really think there are many Redskin fans that will be shocked if Kirk Cousins wins a Super Bowl and is the Super Bowl MVP with the Vikings?  I guess a few knuckleheads but I don't think many serious Skin fans will be surprised.  Everyone knows he has the goods or they don't understand the game worth a lick.  I really think Allen and Snyder get a pass if Smith plays as well as Cousins did for the Skins.

 

Mind you, no one and I mean no one here valued Cousins more than me or detests Snyder more than me but if Smith performs I will be okay with the trade which is all they could've done in 2018.  I don't really know when they blew their chance with Cousins. I suspect when they welched on the on the public commitment SM made that they would overpay if he was able to repeat his 2015 performance, Kirk did even better and they low balled him and I think closed his heart to the Skins.  An unforgivable mistake but if Smith plays well it won't matter how well Cousins does with a better team.

 

I am an odder duck than most on Kirk.  I really have had the back of every young QB who has been here or at least I had it initially.  I am a big believer that every young QB deserves the opportunity to work out the kinks and also the supporting cast and context matters.  My mantra is let the movie play out and give the dude a chance.

 

I felt that way about RG3.  Felt example the same about Kirk in 2015.  As much as you came on for Kirk in recent years -- I was that guy in 2015.  I wasn't as infatuated with him as you were but I liked him a lot, I had his back throughout the ups and downs that season through last year.

 

I noticed that I found myself arguing versus some of the same people who were on my side on RG3.  The thing about it I was using the same argument for Kirk that I used for RG3 which is let the movie play out and don't kill the dude when his supporting cast plays poorly.   In my mind, my arguments were consistent. What applied to one QB to me applied to the other.  But some didn't see it that way.  So yeah I do buy the whole RG3 dynamic was a sore spot with some at least relating to Kirk.  

 

When Keim/Jones among others reported about the Kirk contract especially in 2016 -- some of that RG3 spillover seemed to color negotiations from both ends but especially from Dan/Bruce's end.   The whole thing to me is really weird.  Right down to Shanny, talking about Kirk/RG3 as his last words when he left the building.  All the ego -- proving one side is wrong, etc, etc. 

 

My point is yeah I think there is some irrational hate towards Kirk.  You see it mostly on twitter.  I agree with you that most fans won't be surprised.  But their is a vocal minority who still loves trashing the dude and it would be amusing to see how they'd react to it. 

 

I think the problem with it from the Alex Smith perspective is some of those people are trying to paint Alex as the be all and end all in contrast to Kirk.  And if you put that dude in that high of a pedestal than you are bound to be ultimately disappointed.  The similarities between Alex and Kirk are almost eerie.  They are both WCO guys.   They are both considered by critics as game managers who aren't clutch.  They are both good IMO.  They are both super nice people and somewhat understated -- Alex being more understated. 

 

But yeah for me if Kirk at 30 blooms even more, takes the Vikings to the promised land while we do the 8-8, 9-7 thing -- all isn't forgiven from me.  Not even close.  And I know i am not alone on this. 

 

[Veryoldschool]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I am an odder duck than most on Kirk.  I really have had the back of every young QB who has been here or at least I had it initially.  I am a big believer that every young QB deserves the opportunity to work out the kinks and also the supporting cast and context matters.  My mantra is let the movie play out and give the dude a chance.

 

I felt that way about RG3.  Felt example the same about Kirk in 2015.  As much as you came on for Kirk in recent years -- I was that guy in 2015.  I wasn't as infatuated with him as you were but I liked him a lot, I had his back throughout the ups and downs that season through last year.

 

I noticed that I found myself arguing versus some of the same people who were on my side on RG3.  The thing about it I was using the same argument for Kirk that I used for RG3 which is let the movie play out and don't kill the dude when his supporting cast plays poorly.   In my mind, my arguments were consistent. What applied to one QB to me applied to the other.  But some didn't see it that way.  So yeah I do buy the whole RG3 dynamic was a sore spot with some at least relating to Kirk.  

 

When Keim/Jones among others reported about the Kirk contract especially in 2016 -- some of that RG3 spillover seemed to color negotiations from both ends but especially from Dan/Bruce's end.   The whole thing to me is really weird.  Right down to Shanny, talking about Kirk/RG3 as his last words when he left the building.  All the ego -- proving one side is wrong, etc, etc. 

 

My point is yeah I think there is some irrational hate towards Kirk.  You see it mostly on twitter.  I agree with you that most fans won't be surprised.  But their is a vocal minority who still loves trashing the dude and it would be amusing to see how they'd react to it. 

 

I think the problem with it from the Alex Smith perspective is some of those people are trying to paint Alex as the be all and end all in contrast to Kirk.  And if you put that dude in that high of a pedestal than you are bound to be ultimately disappointed.  The similarities between Alex and Kirk are almost eerie.  They are both WCO guys.   They are both considered by critics as game managers who aren't clutch.  They are both good IMO.  They are both super nice people and somewhat understated -- Alex being more understated. 

 

But yeah for me if Kirk at 30 blooms even more, takes the Vikings to the promised land while we do the 8-8, 9-7 thing -- all isn't forgiven from me.  Not even close.  And I know i am not alone on this. 

 

 

I never thought Griffin was going to make it in the NFL, even during the hot games of his rookie season.  My friends thought I was crazy but I was against the trade and always saw him as an athletic guy with a limited skill set unsuited for the NFL.  I knew Griffin would get hurt, and while I was sorry to see it happen, sorry to be right, I knew it would happen because I'm 66 and I've seen lots of athletic QBs try to run and get killed in the NFL. 

 

I saw Cousins had the goods during his first start in Cleveland.  I wanted him to start the season in 2013 and if Snyder had Cousins play all of 2013 Kirk would've blossomed then instead of in 2015 and things would've been different.  Maybe if Cousins wasn't so talented Griffin would have been willing to sit out 2013.  Your might have been an early supporter of Cousins but it was me that started a preseason thread that I wanted Cousins to start all 16 games in 2015, thankfully Gruden listened to me.....:-)

 

I don't know enough about Alex Smith to compare him to Cousins.  I do think it is noteworthy to point out Alex has played on much better teams than the Skins so while I don't know enough to say Alex will have a weaker offensive supporting cast in DC I don't think anyone would suggest that the 2018 Skins are as talented as the 2017 Chiefs or the Super Bowl 49ers.  Kirk is stepping into a better team and supporting cast then he has ever had and the reverse may be true of Alex Smith.  Hopefully, Alex has a great year.

 

Yeah, I know some Griffin fans never got over their resentment of Cousins but I don't think they will feel that animus towards Smith and I hope ardent Cousins supporters like me embrace Smith and stick with him.  It would be nice to have a fan base united behind our QB for a change.

[Skinsinparadise]

13 minutes ago, Veryoldschool said:

 

I never thought Griffin was going to make it in the NFL, even during the hot games of his rookie season.  My friends thought I was crazy but I was against the trade and always saw him as an athletic guy with a limited skill set unsuited for the NFL.  I knew Griffin would get hurt, and while I was sorry to see it happen, sorry to be right, I knew it would happen because I'm 66 and I've seen lots of athletic QBs try to run and get killed in the NFL. 

 

 

I thought he would be the goods but I was worried about his physique.   He didn't look like a guy who could withstand punishment.

 

13 minutes ago, Veryoldschool said:

 

I saw Cousins had the goods during his first start in Cleveland.  I wanted him to start the season in 2013 and if Snyder had Cousins play all of 2013 Kirk would've blossomed then instead of in 2015 and things would've been different.  Maybe if Cousins wasn't so talented Griffin would have been willing to sit out 2013.  Your might have been an early supporter of Cousins but it was me that started a preseason thread that I wanted Cousins to start all 16 games in 2015, thankfully Gruden listened to me.....:-)

 

 

I like the pick when we took Kirk.  I liked how he played against Cleveland.  I was a Kirk guy through 2013 but not to the degree that I thought he should start.   In 2014, I lost some faith in both Kirk and RG3.

 

Before the 2015 season, I thought RG3 should be given a chance but on the RG3 thread that summer I said if not RG3 than Kirk -- I didn't want it to be Colt.  When Kirk was named the starter in 2015, I was on board defended him the whole way especially after the Jets game.

 

But yeah I think he's one of the better QBs in the league.  I think we let a good one get away.  RG3 clearly a bust so you ended up right on him.

 

13 minutes ago, Veryoldschool said:

 

I don't know enough about Alex Smith to compare him to Cousins.  I do think it is noteworthy to point out Alex has played on much better teams than the Skins so while I don't know enough to say Alex will have a weaker offensive supporting cast in DC I don't think anyone would suggest that the 2018 Skins are as talented as the 2017 Chiefs or the Super Bowl 49ers.  Kirk is stepping into a better team and supporting cast then he has ever had and the reverse may be true of Alex Smith.  Hopefully, Alex has a great year.

 

I think Alex will have a good year.  He's a good QB.  He's accurate. He's mobile.  He's good at avoiding turnovers.  His mobility and ball handling skills should help the running game.

 

I recall from some of your other posts that you are concerned about the running game because of the O line.  But I think Guice will transcend that.  I think the dude is a superstar.  That should help Smith and this offense be better than it was last season.

 

Yeah I am 100% behind Alex. But I am not going to pretend that i like how things went down with Kirk so I'll be monitoring how he does.

[OlufemiBiz]

5 hours ago, Gibbit said:

**** krik

 

GO ALEX....year of the alex in DC  

 

???????????

[Califan007 The Constipated]

My take on Smith and Cousins..

 

I'm not rooting for either player. I always root for the Redskins, first and foremost. That means, whoever is our QB, he gets my full support and I hope and pray he delivers on the field. That's what would be best for the team, and that's what my wish will be each week of each season.

 

So in that light, to me what would also be best for the Redskins is for the decision-makers to be right. So that's what I hope for, each and every week of each and every season. What would make the decision-makers right here?...If there's no drop-off from Cousins to Alex Smith, and if Cousins proves to not be worth the money he commanded. So that's what I root for. What would have made the decision-makers right in 2015? If Cousins improved and showed himself to be a legit franchise QB and Griffin didn't go somewhere else and light up the league for his new team. So that's what I rooted for. For me, it has zero to do with how much I like or dislike the individual player, or how much I like or dislike Snyder or Allen. I never root for outcomes solely due to how much it will hurt them or harm their tenure with the Skins or make Snyder want to sell or Allen want to quit.

 

When it came to Vinny, I rooted and hoped for his decisions to turn out to be really good ones (even the drafting of Mo, Larry and Curly in the 2nd round in 2008 lol) while also hoping he would somehow be shown the door asap. While some will say it's only because his decisions failed that he was fired, it's not really true. Snyder wanted to bring on Bruce Allen as GM long before the 2009 season ever happened, and he also wanted Shanahan as coach before even the first "fan card" was printed out and sent to Redskins Park. Trust me, Snyder isn't sitting around playing Madden until fans start complaining...he's always thinking of "who else is out there", and he should be. Just as a GM and the scouting department should always be thinking "who else is out there." He was thinking of bringing back Bethard well before firing Schotty. He and  Allen were considering bringing on Scot M as GM long before the "winning off the field" presser and the 4-12 season ended. So i was hoping that Snyder had already been thinking he needed a serious upgrade at Vinny's position, regardless of whether or not his draft and selection of Zorn as head coach worked out well or bombed (spoiler alert: it bombed).

 

So...Alex Smith? Ball out, brother...show the Chiefs that they ****ed up by only getting a 3rd round pick and Fuller for you. Show that the Redskins somehow made chicken salad out of chicken ****--even if they were the ones who made the chicken take a **** in the first place lol--and saved a nice amount of $$$ in the process. Cousins? I hope he shows that it was wise for the Redskins to move on from him, even if it was unwise to franchise him twice. I hope this new front office setup of Allen, Williams, Schaeffer and Smith actually ends up in consideration for Executive of the Year honors at the end of the season. Because if they are, we all know why that would be...and can't imagine any of us being upset with that.

[Guardshock]

4 hours ago, Califan007 said:

My take on Smith and Cousins..

 

 

 

So...Alex Smith? Ball out, brother...show the Chiefs that they ****ed up by only getting a 3rd round pick and Fuller for you. Show that the Redskins somehow made chicken salad out of chicken ****--even if they were the ones who made the chicken take a **** in the first place lol--and saved a nice amount of $$$ in the process. Cousins? I hope he shows that it was wise for the Redskins to move on from him, even if it was unwise to franchise him twice. I hope this new front office setup of Allen, Williams, Schaeffer and Smith actually ends up in consideration for Executive of the Year honors at the end of the season. Because if they are, we all know why that would be...and can't imagine any of us being upset with that.

 

I like how you think.

[Skinsinparadise]

4 hours ago, Califan007 said:

 

So...Alex Smith? Ball out, brother...show the Chiefs that they ****ed up by only getting a 3rd round pick and Fuller for you. Show that the Redskins somehow made chicken salad out of chicken ****--even if they were the ones who made the chicken take a **** in the first place lol--and saved a nice amount of $$$ in the process. Cousins? I hope he shows that it was wise for the Redskins to move on from him, even if it was unwise to franchise him twice. I hope this new front office setup of Allen, Williams, Schaeffer and Smith actually ends up in consideration for Executive of the Year honors at the end of the season. Because if they are, we all know why that would be...and can't imagine any of us being upset with that.

 

I get the sentiment.  I think all of us or maybe almost all of us want Alex Smith to succeed and the team to win. So I don't think there is anyone counter arguing that. 

 

However for those who really really don't like the FO set up and how Bruce specifically does his business -- Kirk succeeding in Minny is a running commentary among other things about that.  And as long as Minny isn't playing our team or is in our way -- I want to see Kirk do well.

 

This to me isn't like RG3.  With RG3 we had a young replacement in place who took the team to the playoffs when RG3 was let go.  And the coach made the choice.  RG3 stunk at that point.  In this case, we let go a franchise QB that one of the FO's that's considered among the best in the league -- they felt he was worthy to pay -- and Bruce didn't.   If this was an aberration for me as to how Bruce does business but otherwise I love how the dude rolls, it would be one thing -- but it wasn't.  It was just another log in the fire. 

 

If the Redskins plays Minny, I'd love for us to beat them.   I'd love for us to win period -- every time and all the time.  And like you that doesn't change whether its Vinny or Bruce or whomever is in charge.  And if Bruce gets vindicated by the team winning the Superbowl -- heck yeah, I'd love that.  But I think the more realistic scenario is that Kirk's performance will have zero impact on the Redskins year one way or another.  And the odds are much greater that the better constructed Viking team will have a better year than the Redskins.

 

So for a more likely apples to apples point.  When we are likely watching the Vikings in the 2nd round of the playoffs and the Redskins are likely home watching it.  I am not rooting for Kirk to have a bad playoff game so Bruce can go hey see!  I'd be rooting for the absolute opposite.  Because in my mind as a Redskins fan -- Dan getting off the train of the top personnel guy should be his closest friend in the organization versus the smartest personnel guy he can find -- will ultimately bring a sea change improvement to the team that ultimately will give us the best chance to one day finally win another Super Bowl.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

23 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

This to me isn't like RG3.  With RG3 we had a young replacement in place who took the team to the playoffs when RG3 was let go.  And the coach made the choice.  RG3 stunk at that point.  In this case, we let go a franchise QB that one of the FO's that's considered among the best in the league -- they felt he was worthy to pay -- and Bruce didn't.   If this was an aberration for me as to how Bruce does business but otherwise I love how the dude rolls, it would be one thing -- but it wasn't.  It was just another log in the fire. 

 

Well, I don't think we know enough about who had input into the decisions not to pay Kirk. Based on some of the sentiment we have started hearing from Jay, I think it's very possible he contributed to that decision too. I think it's likely that he was asked about Kirk's value. I don't think it's coincidence that we're hearing how plays were left on the field and we missed open guys all the time. 

 

That doesn't mean the decision will be correct or that even Jay's assessment is correct, but I think it's unfair to assume that this decision was made above Jay's pay grade. 

[Skinsinparadise]

28 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

Well, I don't think we know enough about who had input into the decisions not to pay Kirk. Based on some of the sentiment we have started hearing from Jay, I think it's very possible he contributed to that decision too. I think it's likely that he was asked about Kirk's value. I don't think it's coincidence that we're hearing how plays were left on the field and we missed open guys all the time. 

 

That doesn't mean the decision will be correct or that even Jay's assessment is correct, but I think it's unfair to assume that this decision was made above Jay's pay grade. 

 

The Jay part was incidental to my point and I made it in the context of RG3 was benched for Kirk.  They were both in house. Jay didn't bench Kirk for Alex.   I don't see much parallel to the RG3 situation and Kirk -- that was the gist of my point on that front.

 

Not saying you are saying the opposite of this but if Jay was fed up with Kirk like RG3 and was just dying to replace him -- he had a funny way of showing it.  The most damning thing relating to Jay as to Kirk is that some said he gave the vibe that he was tired of the drama of the contract by the end of 2017 and he flat out said he wants it resolved one way or another after last season. 

 

To hit back on my point without getting into the weeds -- it would be simply this.

 

 If the Vikings are playing in the playoffs in a game with no consequence to the Redskins.  Multiple choice:

A. I root against Kirk

B. I root for him.

C.  I don't care either way. 

 

 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

The Jay part was incidental to my point and I made it in the context of RG3 was benched for Kirk.  They were both in house. Jay didn't bench Kirk for Alex.   I don't see much parallel to the RG3 situation and Kirk -- that was the gist of my point on that front.

 

Not saying you are saying the opposite of this but if Jay was fed up with Kirk like RG3 and was just dying to replace him -- he had a funny way of showing it.  The most damning thing relating to Jay as to Kirk is that some said he gave the vibe that he was tired of the drama of the contract by the end of 2017 and he flat out said he wants it resolved one way or another after last season. 

 

To hit back on my point without getting into the weeds -- it would be simply this.

 

 If the Vikings are playing in the playoffs in a game with no consequence to the Redskins.  Multiple choice:

A. I root against Kirk

B. I root for him.

C.  I don't care either way. 

 

 

 

Not apples to apples with RG3, I agree. I think Gruden realized he had no shot to win with Griffin and knew that Cousins was skilled enough to run his offense. But, that doesn't mean that Gruden thought Cousins was getting the most out of his offense. And, if we're being honest, there have been stories popping up for over a year about how Gruden mentioned open guys, or Cousins saying that Jay's preference would be to take more shots, etc. So, in the end, Jay could "stood on the table" to get them to keep Cousins if he thought he was the best they could do. Jay seemingly valued getting "the same guy" for $8M less per year so that the crappy running game or inconsistent defense could be addressed too. 

 

My answer to your question is either A or C but, if I'm being gun-to-my-head honest, probably closer to A. My natural inclination on these things (no matter how I feel about the moves themselves) is to ultimately want the team to look correct. 

[Veryoldschool]

39 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

Well, I don't think we know enough about who had input into the decisions not to pay Kirk. Based on some of the sentiment we have started hearing from Jay, I think it's very possible he contributed to that decision too. I think it's likely that he was asked about Kirk's value. I don't think it's coincidence that we're hearing how plays were left on the field and we missed open guys all the time. 

 

That doesn't mean the decision will be correct or that even Jay's assessment is correct, but I think it's unfair to assume that this decision was made above Jay's pay grade. 

 

I don't think Cousins would have signed a multi-year with the Skins in 2018 at any price.  Kirk's dad said something after the 2017 deadline to the effect Kirk wouldn't have signed for any price.  I don't know when Kirk shut the door on the Skins but I suspect it was before he got tagged in 2017.  In any case, he's moved on and I got two teams to follow.  I thought about getting the NFL package but I think I'll be hitting a sports bar instead and pigging out on wings and beer while watching both of my NFL teams!

[TD_washingtonredskins]

1 minute ago, Veryoldschool said:

 

I don't think Cousins would have signed a multi-year with the Skins in 2018 at any price.  Kirk's dad said something after the 2017 deadline to the effect Kirk wouldn't have signed for any price.  I don't know when Kirk shut the door on the Skins but I suspect it was before he got tagged in 2017.  In any case, he's moved on and I got two teams to follow.  I thought about getting the NFL package but I think I'll be hitting a sports bar instead and pigging out on wings and beer while watching both of my NFL teams!

 

No, I agree with you. 

 

But if Jay really wanted to keep Kirk, I think the Redskins would have ultimately made a last-ditch, bigger offer. It may not have worked out but we'd have heard that they came in at the 11th hour and offered X. 

[Skinsinparadise]

37 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

My answer to your question is either A or C but, if I'm being gun-to-my-head honest, probably closer to A. My natural inclination on these things (no matter how I feel about the moves themselves) is to ultimately want the team to look correct. 

 

OK to each their own on that.  To me for the team to be correct and the team to win aren't the same things.  So I am not looking for the decision makers to be validated if I want the decision makers to someday change.  Or more succinctly, there to me is a weird smugness about Bruce that doesn't match this team's success -- i am not into validating that unless i believed in the dude.  And sadly I don't believe in him. 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

4 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

OK to each their own on that.  To me for the team to be correct and the team to win aren't the same things.  So I am not looking for the decision makers to be validated if I want the decision makers to someday change.  Or more succinctly, there to me is a weird smugness about Bruce that doesn't match this team's success -- i am not into validating that unless i believed in the dude.  And sadly I don't believe in him. 

 

I get that and understand it. I look at it this way...

 

What's the best-case scenario as a fan? For me, it's that the guys currently in charge suddenly know what they're doing. That's the cleanest path to success. So, I don't want Allen to be right because I want him to feel good about his decision. I want him to be right as a signal that we're making sound decisions. Otherwise, the path to becoming good involves removing people from their positions, hiring new guys who know what they're doing, etc. 

 

So, even though there's plenty about the guys in charge that annoy me and I don't think it's likely, I root for each decision to be the right decision in order to show me that we're on the right track. 

[bowhunter]

I get the feeling that our FO felt that Jays system> KC. This season should give us a fair amount of insight into that. If Alex leads our O to new levels, or if Minny finds that KC didn't do much more than Keenum. I realize that it's not truly an apples to apples comparison due to the constant evolution of NFL rosters, but it should be interesting to watch. I personally loved KC and wanted him signed to a LTD years ago, but since he left for greener pastures, I feel a little like a jilted lover. I do expect Alex to show us sides of Jays offense that we've never seen before.

[Skinsinparadise]

42 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

I get that and understand it. I look at it this way...

 

What's the best-case scenario as a fan? For me, it's that the guys currently in charge suddenly know what they're doing. That's the cleanest path to success. So, I don't want Allen to be right because I want him to feel good about his decision. I want him to be right as a signal that we're making sound decisions. Otherwise, the path to becoming good involves removing people from their positions, hiring new guys who know what they're doing, etc. 

 

So, even though there's plenty about the guys in charge that annoy me and I don't think it's likely, I root for each decision to be the right decision in order to show me that we're on the right track. 

 

My example of Kirk performing well while still having zero impact on the Redskins season -- is different that the standard decision the team makes.

 

I want every roster decision to be right.  I want them to win every game. So I ride along with most of your point.  But the reason why the Kirk situation to me is different is its unlikely his performance has any bearing on the Redskins performance so to me in that case he's a running commentary on Bruce.  For me to have a rooting interest for Bruce to be right on this front, I'd think I'd need to be sold on the following:

 

A.  I am open to be sold on Bruce -- there are some things I like, some I don't.  But yeah I can be sold that he's the guy.  I can be had by Bruce ultimately.  But, for me Bruce can't sell me -- the 9 year sample and what I've seen is enough to turn me off that I am no where on the brink of changing my mind about him -- aside from him stepping out of the way by promoting someone else. 

 

B.  Playing off of A -- I can't be sold off the idea that a guy with Bruce's profile shouldn't be the type of guy running personnel.  Unless that guy is mega classy and mega competent.  Again, considering Bruce can barely get through an interview without tripping all over himself (hyperbole to make a point) I can't be sold on this point either. 

 

For me, A & B aren't options.  So I got no rooting interest for him to be right.   But I am always rooting for every player on this team.  And for them to win every game.  And if this point ever came to a head and we played Minny -- in that case I am 100% all for winning and winning big. 

 

 

 

 

[wit33]

Love that Alex will only be around 11% of the cap for the life of the deal. Such crazy value in the current market of QBs. In my individual opinion, it’s rifht around where the average to above average QBs should be. 

 

 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I get the sentiment.  I think all of us or maybe almost all of us want Alex Smith to succeed and the team to win. So I don't think there is anyone counter arguing that. 

 

However for those who really really don't like the FO set up and how Bruce specifically does his business -- Kirk succeeding in Minny is a running commentary among other things about that.  And as long as Minny isn't playing our team or is in our way -- I want to see Kirk do well.

 

1

 

Those two stances are kinda at cross purposes, though. If you want Alex Smith to do well and the team to win with him behind center, then Cousins also doing well isn't a running commentary on anything, other than the Skins could still do well without breaking the bank. The only way Cousins doing well can be a running commentary on Allen and his way of doing business is if Smith and the Skins do not do well and do not win while Cousins and the Vikings advance in the playoffs.

 

In fact, since Case stinkin' Keenum took the Vikings to the NFC Championship game, the only way Cousins can "do well" is to make it to the Super Bowl...and since you said you'd want to see him do well as long as he and the Vikings aren't "in our way," it kinda eliminates Cousins taking the Vikes to the Super Bowl from the discussion lol...

 

 

This to me isn't like RG3.  With RG3 we had a young replacement in place who took the team to the playoffs when RG3 was let go.  And the coach made the choice.  RG3 stunk at that point.  In this case, we let go a franchise QB that one of the FO's that's considered among the best in the league -- they felt he was worthy to pay -- and Bruce didn't.   If this was an aberration for me as to how Bruce does business but otherwise I love how the dude rolls, it would be one thing -- but it wasn't.  It was just another log in the fire.

 

I didn't say it was like RG3...I said my rooting interests were in seeing Cousins do well and Griffin not to. That would indicate that Griffin's issues were not tied to Allen, Snyder or especially Gruden, but just to himself. And it does seem you care more about being right about Allen than hoping decisions made by him turn out to be the right ones. Unless you're saying you look at him the way I looked at Vinny, which probably is the case (hope his decisions turn out to be good ones, but also hope he gets shown the door regardless).

 

 

If the Redskins plays Minny, I'd love for us to beat them.   I'd love for us to win period -- every time and all the time.  And like you that doesn't change whether its Vinny or Bruce or whomever is in charge.  And if Bruce gets vindicated by the team winning the Superbowl -- heck yeah, I'd love that.  But I think the more realistic scenario is that Kirk's performance will have zero impact on the Redskins year one way or another.  And the odds are much greater that the better constructed Viking team will have a better year than the Redskins.

 

I don't ever talk about or consider the odds unless I'm betting my money on something lol...definitely doesn't play any role in what I root for and hope to see. Odds were that the Skins weren't gonna bounce back from 2-4 in 2015. Odds were that the Skins weren't gonna bounce back from 3-6 in 2012. Odds were that the Skins weren't gonna overcome Sean Taylor's murder, a 5-7 record and the starting QB going out for the season in 2007. Odds were that the Skins weren't gonna come back and beat the Cowboys being down 13-0 with 5 minutes remaining. Odds were Troy Vincent wasn't gonna block that last second FG attempt by the Cowboys, Taylor wasn't gonna be facemasked while returning the loose ball, and Novak wasn't gonna nail a 47 yarder after missing from pretty much the same distance. I mean, **** the odds lol...if you have to consider the odds as a fan before forming your hopes and rooting interests for the team, something's wrong.

 

 

 

So for a more likely apples to apples point.  When we are likely watching the Vikings in the 2nd round of the playoffs and the Redskins are likely home watching it.  I am not rooting for Kirk to have a bad playoff game so Bruce can go hey see!  I'd be rooting for the absolute opposite.  Because in my mind as a Redskins fan -- Dan getting off the train of the top personnel guy should be his closest friend in the organization versus the smartest personnel guy he can find -- will ultimately bring a sea change improvement to the team that ultimately will give us the best chance to one day finally win another Super Bowl.

 

??...this whole section makes me feel like you'd almost be as happy seeing the Skins lose and the Vikings succeed as you would be seeing the Skins succeed. You have some hopes tied up into that scenario as where I don't even spend time and energy trying to imagine it, nonetheless putting any hopes into what it could mean if it did. For me, there's no running commentary tied to Cousins because as long as Smith and the Redskins do well and win, the decision to trade for him and not pay Cousins $84M will be seen as a good move. Just like the decision toi franchise tag him twice and get zilch in return for him will always be seen as a bad move, regardless of whether or not Cousins sucks for the Vikes or Smith wins the team a SB. Since that's what I hope for and want for my team, I don't even bother with the idea of any commentary being tied to Cousins.

[Veryoldschool]

This thread is drifting off course let's get back to the Alex Smith lovefest I intended, he's our guy now

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Califan007 said:

 

Those two stances are kinda at cross purposes, though. If you want Alex Smith to do well and the team to win with him behind center, then Cousins also doing well isn't a running commentary on anything, other than the Skins could still do well without breaking the bank.

 

I get the point but your version of it has little nuance to it.  I laid out specific scenarios where there is no cross purposes.    To each their own but if the Redskins have a good year on their terms and go 9-7.  And the Vikings win the Superbowl -- my thoughts aren't going to be heck at least we at least aren't paying Kirk 28 million.  And this is me delving into the point in the simplest way -- if I wanted to get deep, I don't buy that the choice was 28 million or bust -- Bruce is the one who walked Kirk's agent right into that door.  Heck if I were Kirk's agent, I'd send Bruce at least a gift basket for the 28 million dollar gig Kirk got -- he deserves as much credit for it as anyone.  

 

1 hour ago, Califan007 said:

 

In fact, since Case stinkin' Keenum took the Vikings to the NFC Championship game, the only way Cousins can "do well" is to make it to the Super Bowl...and since you said you'd want to see him do well as long as he and the Vikings aren't "in our way," it kinda eliminates Cousins taking the Vikes to the Super Bowl from the discussion lol...

 

I got no idea what this means.  My point nullifies somehow the value of Kirk taking the Vikings to the Superbowl?  If your point is even if he wins the Superbowl so what, since Keenum took them close -- I disagree with that.  But not sure if that's what you mean.

 

1 hour ago, Califan007 said:

And it does seem you care more about being right about Allen than hoping decisions made by him turn out to be the right ones. Unless you're saying you look at him the way I looked at Vinny, which probably is the case (hope his decisions turn out to be good ones, but also hope he gets shown the door regardless).

 

 I said the absolute opposite of what you say here.  I want all the roster decisions about players in house to be right.   The Kirk situation is different and I think I explained very explicitly about how its actually different and even got into how it would have to go down where it would have no impact on the Redskins season.   So not sure why you are flipping it in the opposite direction? 

 

As to the Bruce/Vinny point.   Vinny to me was more incompetent but Bruce to me isn't a mile away in front.   I'll predict now they both end up punch lines a few years down the road when Bruce is finally gone.  I've explained why many times including to you.  Not in the mood to do it again.

 

1 hour ago, Califan007 said:

..if you have to consider the odds as a fan before forming your hopes and rooting interests for the team, something's wrong.

  

Agree.  But the point has ZERO to do with anything I said.  I didn't say my rooting interests for the team are driven by odds about anything. So you got me where you are going with it but it was an a fun blast to the past to read your paragraph on it right down to Sean Taylor references. 

 

1 hour ago, Califan007 said:

??...this whole section makes me feel like you'd almost be as happy seeing the Skins lose and the Vikings succeed as you would be seeing the Skins succeed.

 

Sorry but this is beyond ridiculous.   I said nothing of the kind.  Quote me where I said or even implied I want the Redskins to lose.   While you are at it, count how many times I said I want the Redskins to win.  

 

1 hour ago, Califan007 said:

nonetheless putting any hopes into what it could mean if it did. For me, there's no running commentary tied to Cousins because as long as Smith and the Redskins do well and win, the decision to trade for him and not pay Cousins $84M will be seen as a good move. Just like the decision toi franchise tag him twice and get zilch in return for him will always be seen as a bad move, regardless of whether or not Cousins sucks for the Vikes or Smith wins the team a SB. Since that's what I hope for and want for my team, I don't even bother with the idea of any commentary being tied to Cousins.

 

Superbowls aren't easy to win.  I think you grossly underestimate the value of winning one.  This is unlikely going to be an abstract exercise IMO the way you lay it out if a SB is in play.

 

To your point.  If Alex Smith wins a Superbowl.  All will be forgiven by most fans I predict -- regardless for how they botched things with Kirk or for that matter if Kirk wins one, too.  Conversely, if Kirk wins a Superbowl, it will be noticed by plenty of fans regardless of whether we had a lesser year at the same time but a good one.