BatteredFanSyndrome Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 I think its safe to say that we should always expect positive news, particularly when the guys are in shorts. Also safe to say I expect the head coach to say they are ready to win now whether he truly believes that or not. Moral of the story: Talk is cheap. Jay's not going to come out and say "yeah, I think we're a few guys short of championship caliber" under any circumstances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Califan007 The Constipated Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 19 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said: I think its safe to say that we should always expect positive news, particularly when the guys are in shorts. Also safe to say I expect the head coach to say they are ready to win now whether he truly believes that or not. Moral of the story: Talk is cheap. Jay's not going to come out and say "yeah, I think we're a few guys short of championship caliber" under any circumstances. We always act like there's no middle ground lol...either Gruden has to say "we are still a few players/years away" or he has to say "We are ready to contend now". Like it never occurred to Gruden to say "we're still in shorts, so can't say too much right now." Or "Ask me again in August." Or "That's the plan, but we still have a lot to do." Or any number of versions of those statements. I think Gruden said what he said for a reason, and it wasn't just to put a positive spin on things. I do think his mindset--and maybe the mindset of Allen and Snyder as well--is that they have to start winning and contending now...not down the road after another good draft or two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 54 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said: I like the sense of urgency as a fan, so let's see. I guess if Gruden comes out and states that we have everything we need to win then he's stepping up and taking accountability for however this season ends up. I want him to stick, but the "win-win" from that is we will see if he can really lead a contending team or not. I like Jay a lot. Though to me three things I'd like to see this season. 1. win game #1 -- looks like I am going to that game, too so the stakes are even higher for him. 2. You got IMO finally a stud RB, so lets have a good running game. 3. My only real beef with Jay is clock management -- he's not the only guy who struggles with it but I'd like to see real improvement. As for the Alex Smith drill. He's the new shiny toy so they are always exciting. I am excited to see what he does, too. But the irony about him is some I notice on twitter paint him as the anti-Kirk -- he's all things Kirk wasn't, etc. Personally, I think both guys are similar caliber. Both guys are playoff QBs with the right rosters. I favor Kirk because of his age, But just as we know Kirk really well from watching him so do the KC guys know Alex -- so I try to pay attention to what they say. And the picture painted is Alex is a conservative QB who is safe with the ball -- that's mostly a complement. He bloomed as a deep thrower last year with arguably the best deep threat WR in the game. He's a super nice guy and mostly a quiet dude. Chris Thompson talked about this recently in an interview. Kirk was more boisterous. As for the Alex-Kirk stuff. A positive change I do buy into is that players are comfortable with the idea that Alex is going to be here and there is no continued talk about whether the QB has one foot out the door. My difference though is I put that issue on the FO not Kirk. But yeah its good even as a fan to watch a QB and not worry about whether we are seeing the last of him so maybe I shouldn't get that excited, etc. My one concern on that front is age. And the thing with age is a lot of times its a combination of that and injury. Something can happen out of the blue and players in their mid 30s don't recover typically the same way as younger ones. I actually learned that recently via a member of my own family -- where I talked to an orthopedist who explained how healing/healing times are dramatically different depending on age -- including 20s versus 30s. 9 minutes ago, Califan007 said: I think Gruden said what he said for a reason, and it wasn't just to put a positive spin on things. I do think his mindset--and maybe the mindset of Allen and Snyder as well--is that they have to start winning and contending now...not down the road after another good draft or two. Sheehan threw in maybe its because of Alex's age -- that you got the best seasons for him maybe in the next year or two -- similar to what I said earlier here, I always knew Sheehan gets his material from our threads. Cooley said he doesn't think so and it sounded to him that it came as a directive from someone above -- saying Jay you better win this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatteredFanSyndrome Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 10 minutes ago, Califan007 said: We always act like there's no middle ground lol...either Gruden has to say "we are still a few players/years away" or he has to say "We are ready to contend now". Like it never occurred to Gruden to say "we're still in shorts, so can't say too much right now." Or "Ask me again in August." Or "That's the plan, but we still have a lot to do." Or any number of versions of those statements. I think Gruden said what he said for a reason, and it wasn't just to put a positive spin on things. I do think his mindset--and maybe the mindset of Allen and Snyder as well--is that they have to start winning and contending now...not down the road after another good draft or two. Of course the head coach should believe they have what it takes to compete for championships. More than anyone. My point is that there is literally nothing that can be said, good or bad, that makes for a hill of beans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Califan007 The Constipated Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 35 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said: Sheehan threw in maybe its because of Alex's age -- that you got the best seasons for him maybe in the next year or two -- similar to what I said earlier here, I always knew Sheehan gets his material from our threads. Cooley said he doesn't think so and it sounded to him that it came as a directive from someone above -- saying Jay you better win this year. 1 I think I agree with Sheehan (and you lol) and Cooley both...Alex isn't a placeholder or a "bridge" QB meant to keep the team at least somewhat competitive while they build the roster. I remember either Sheehan or Cooley (or both) saying that they believed Allen and Snyder truly felt they had a roster that was talented enough to contend for the division and more right now, it's just that injuries really sabotaged the season. 26 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said: Of course the head coach should believe they have what it takes to compete for championships. More than anyone. My point is that there is literally nothing that can be said, good or bad, that makes for a hill of beans. 1 If that was your point then I agree 100% lol... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatteredFanSyndrome Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 16 minutes ago, Califan007 said: If that was your point then I agree 100% lol... I just feel like we've all been around long enough to know that what gets said in May-July means absolutely nothing. It's normally overly positive. The new guys are always fitting right in and awesome. The younger guys are getting better everyday. And so on. Once we get to August, some of the things that get said begin to have a little bit of meaning behind it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zCommander Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 1 hour ago, TD_washingtonredskins said: I like the sense of urgency as a fan, so let's see. I guess if Gruden comes out and states that we have everything we need to win then he's stepping up and taking accountability for however this season ends up. I want him to stick, but the "win-win" from that is we will see if he can really lead a contending team or not. Ever since a fan bought the team is like a kid in a candy store. For the last 20 years Dan has always been win now attitude/urgency hence the coaching carousal and the flashy players signed to mega deals instead of spending that money on getting couple of good players and having depth. Should have never drafted RG3 and lose all those draft picks for a one year wonder. It least with Gruden there is some sense of stability or else they would have not kept him. They got Alex because he fits in Gruden's offense and can fit right in (hopefully) where Kirk left off. Up until the players started getting hurt in that Chiefs game we looked like we were going somewhere. You will never have the prefect players but if you are a good coach and have the depth then you can still win a championship even with your backup QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Califan007 The Constipated Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 5 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said: I just feel like we've all been around long enough to know that what gets said in May-July means absolutely nothing. It's normally overly positive. The new guys are always fitting right in and awesome. The younger guys are getting better everyday. And so on. Once we get to August, some of the things that get said begin to have a little bit of meaning behind it. While I agree, I don't necessarily think Gruden saying the team is already built and Smith and the Redskins have to start winning now was overly positive, so to speak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatteredFanSyndrome Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 11 minutes ago, Califan007 said: While I agree, I don't necessarily think Gruden saying the team is already built and Smith and the Redskins have to start winning now was overly positive, so to speak. I don't disagree, but if you look at some of the discourse amongst fans about what's been going on in shorts, you'd never know it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Tomb Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 30 minutes ago, zskins said: They got Alex because he fits in Gruden's offense and can fit right in (hopefully) where Kirk left off. Up until the players started getting hurt in that Chiefs game we looked like we were going somewhere. You will never have the prefect players but if you are a good coach and have the depth then you can still win a championship even with your backup QB. I actually think Smith may be a much better fit in Gruden's offense because of ability to scramble and make plays... something that Kirk was able to do at times last year, but not when it mattered most. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zCommander Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 5 minutes ago, Rex Tomb said: I actually think Smith may be a much better fit in Gruden's offense because of ability to scramble and make plays... something that Kirk was able to do at times last year, but not when it mattered most. Alex begin older gives him that edge slightly over Kirk, experience wise. But you are right that Kirk did have those what the **** should I do now here moments. I think I will just get sacked instead...lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Califan007 The Constipated Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 39 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said: I don't disagree, but if you look at some of the discourse amongst fans about what's been going on in shorts, you'd never know it. But OTAs and minicamp is the "Get out of delusional jail free" card for fans lol... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 3 hours ago, zskins said: Should have never drafted RG3 and lose all those draft picks for a one year wonder. It least with Gruden there is some sense of stability or else they would have not kept him. Should the Eagles have given up all those draft picks for Wentz? The problem wasn't the trade. The problem was injuries, RGIII's ego exploding, and his ultimate busting. If he had kept the promise of the first year and never gotten his leg rolled up on in that rookie year... he might very well have been a Superbowl winner in his rookie year despite a Haslett defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefanskins Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 6 hours ago, Califan007 said: I also remember reading somewhere that if a head coach hasn't won the SB in his first 5 years he likely won't win one at all. chuck noll, tom landry, john madden, bill belichick, dick vermeil, bill cower, tony dungy, tom coughlin, pete carrol and I believe mike holmgren and maybe mccarthy...and of course our very own vince lomabardi...all won the super bowl after 5 years at hc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD_washingtonredskins Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 23 minutes ago, Stefanskins said: chuck noll, tom landry, john madden, bill belichick, dick vermeil, bill cower, tony dungy, tom coughlin, pete carrol and I believe mike holmgren and maybe mccarthy...and of course our very own vince lomabardi...all won the super bowl after 5 years at hc... While true, less than half of those are recent examples since the NFL changed in the early 1990s. I also assume they mean first 5 years "with a given team" so examples like Vermeil and Belichick are out the window. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zCommander Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 2 hours ago, Burgold said: Should the Eagles have given up all those draft picks for Wentz? The problem wasn't the trade. The problem was injuries, RGIII's ego exploding, and his ultimate busting. If he had kept the promise of the first year and never gotten his leg rolled up on in that rookie year... he might very well have been a Superbowl winner in his rookie year despite a Haslett defense. Again he would have been 1 year wonder. He couldn't read defenses and used his legs to compensate. When his leg/knee got hurt he become 1 dimensional. RG3 was never a true pocket passer and couldn't become one. Sorry but I think Wentz still > RG3 even after his knee injury last year. Now if Wentz this year becomes like RG3 then you can compare apples to apples. Right now it is just apples to oranges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Califan007 The Constipated Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 1 hour ago, TD_washingtonredskins said: While true, less than half of those are recent examples since the NFL changed in the early 1990s. I also assume they mean first 5 years "with a given team" so examples like Vermeil and Belichick are out the window. yeah, whereever read it probably gave a certain timeframe, like during the free agency era or something. I'd look it up but I don't care enough to do so lol... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 26 minutes ago, zskins said: Again he would have been 1 year wonder. He couldn't read defenses and used his legs to compensate. When his leg/knee got hurt he become 1 dimensional. RG3 was never a true pocket passer and couldn't become one. Sorry but I think Wentz still > RG3 even after his knee injury last year. Now if Wentz this year becomes like RG3 then you can compare apples to apples. Right now it is just apples to oranges. Last post on this because I don't want to relitigate the past. Plus, it's the wrong thread. I remember in his first year that RGIII was able to be a pocket passer, was deadly accurate, was hitting second and third reads. Somehow, his confidence got wrecked along with his knee. By his last year, he couldn't even hand the ball off effectively. Absolutely every part of his game fell apart. Now, was that inevitable... was that because he was a one year wonder or a perfect storm of ego, injury, lost confidence, coaching, etc. I don't know and don't really care because we can't travel back in time, but the problem wasn't the trade or the price of the trade... the problem was that it didn't work out. To get back on topic, that'll be true of Alex too. Even though the trade price wasn't nearly as high... was he worth giving up a dynamic corner and a third round pick? The price isn't high if Smith is successful here. If he blows it or gets us to the first round of the playoffs before we lose then I'd argue that trade will be viewed as a failure too. Smith needs to take the 'skins to the next level. Otherwise, it wouldn't been better to ride with McCoy and possibly collect that high first rounder that could be groomed into a franchise QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD_washingtonredskins Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 1 minute ago, Califan007 said: yeah, whereever read it probably gave a certain timeframe, like during the free agency era or something. I'd look it up but I don't care enough to do so lol... The exact stat isn't that important as the gist is very clear and relevant... If a modern-era NFL coach hasn't proven himself in the first 5 years, the odds are against him that he will do so with that team. The statement is simple, but the factors contributing to it probably are not. It's not necessarily an indictment of the coach because his roster could suck. It's also very unlikely that many non-successful coaches get more than 5 years in a particular situation. But, for Gruden, I think we need to see some sort of improvement from 2017 for him to feel fully secure. I hope it happens, because I really like something about him leading this team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 3 minutes ago, Califan007 said: yeah, whereever read it probably gave a certain timeframe, like during the free agency era or something. I'd look it up but I don't care enough to do so lol... I suspect it's also because in the modern era if a coach doesn't get really successful within those first five years, he doesn't see a sixth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Califan007 The Constipated Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 12 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said: The exact stat isn't that important as the gist is very clear and relevant... If a modern-era NFL coach hasn't proven himself in the first 5 years, the odds are against him that he will do so with that team. 11 minutes ago, Burgold said: I suspect it's also because in the modern era if a coach doesn't get really successful within those first five years, he doesn't see a sixth. Of the current head coaches who have at least 5 seasons under their belts, only Garrett and Marvin Lewis haven't at least been to the Super Bowl in their first 5 years as head coach (it may have been what I read, that coaches will at least get TO the Super Bowl in 5 years). EDIT: I'm not positive of this, but just glancing over the list, it may be that every coach who took his team to the SB over the last 20 years did so within 5 years...so that could have been the stat I saw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Califan007 The Constipated Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 EDIT: Kinda wild that we don't have a Cousins thread in ATN, after all the debating and arguing we did over the guy. I probably shouldn't have posted that tweet here...so deleting it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bh32 Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 9 minutes ago, Califan007 said: Since we had a discussion about Smith, Cousins and the red zone on this thread lol... Aj Mansour @AjKFAN Rough day for Kirk Cousins and the Vikings first team offense on the red zone. Period saw two INTs (Kearse/Barr), two overthrows, one tipped pass at the line (Hunter) and one offensive coordinator repeatedly yelling “stop the bleeding!” I saw his press clip on NFLN and he said this is the time of year that you take chances to see what works and dosen't..I thought it was kind of funny for him to say that because he wasn't known for taking those same chances here during mini camp or training camp..I think he is just saying that to take all the pressure off of him for demanding such a large contract and looking like a fool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bakedtater1 Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 20 minutes ago, Califan007 said: Aj Mansour @AjKFAN Rough day for Kirk Cousins and the Vikings first team offense on the red zone. Period saw two INTs (Kearse/Barr), two overthrows, one tipped pass at the line (Hunter) and one offensive coordinator repeatedly yelling “stop the bleeding!” This looks familiar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HardcoreZorn Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 I don't really see Alex as the kind of player who steadily trends up, has his best year ever and top 5 in the league, and then drops off a cliff. That would surprise me. If he can provide 3 really good years while also serving as a transition to the QBOTF I think that's just fine. And a reasonable expectation given his career trajectory, the way he takes care of his body, and the fact he's uber smart. Guys like that tend to do pretty well in their late 30's. It's the ones who were physically limited in the first place or who rely mostly on their physical gifts that decline rapidly at an earlier age. Don't see Alex as either of those. And with the way the NFL is moving and emphasis on player safety, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if more of these guys lasted longer. Even still, I think there is a large enough sample size of QB's to play well into their 30's that we shouldn't be fretting over that. Hear a bunch of chatter about Alex "dink and dunk" Smith. I'll wait to see him more with my own eyes to make that judgement, but I've watched another guy dink and dunk his way to 5 SB's. Alex ain't Tom, but dink and dunk ain't all bad either. Protecting the football, living to see another down, and making the check down can drive fans nuts. It can also lead to better outcomes and a W in the Win Column. Alex has won a ton of games over the years with a ton of different players surrounding him. Don't think that is coincidence. I watched another guy post high volume stats but ultimately come up short in the biggest of moments. I think we are better off, but we shall see. This team is built to win right now. I saw glimpses last year and I think this year is even more promising. I HATE losing Fuller but probably would have hated it more had we gone in with McCoy and prayed for the best and wasted a supporting cast that is capable of winning right now. Or at least being a playoff contender. If Smith flops, we pull the plug on Gruden and draft the next guy. And we still have all of our draft capital to do so. I can see the logic behind the strategy. Though would have been tempted by a Lamar Jackson and keeping Fuller. Tough to argue that someone as raw as Jackson would be more efficient leading the team over Alex, even with Fuller still on the team. The impact of a steady Quarterback is ten fold over a corner, no matter how good the corner is. Jackson certainly would have been the long term and flashier play, will grant you that. I do agree that positive talk in the off-season does not mean much in the grand scheme of things, i.e. wins and losses, but it does in fact mean something. Hearing a beat guy say Smith threw more deep passes in one practice than all of last year that he saw doesn't mean Smith is Brett Favre and we are destined for greatness. It does however have many added benefits for the team that have already been touched upon by some here. Hearing a beat guy say "the guys in the locker room now know what this is a starting QB is actually like" means a ton in my opinion. Brushing it to the side as if its all off-season "grass is greener" stuff confirms the rigidness some have in their stances. Leadership and commitment from that position cannot be understated. I can distinctly recall 2014 training camp with the Patriots in town the chatter was all about Griffin not even being the best Quarterback on the team. That doesn't exactly give you the warm and fuzzies in July. Point is, practice matters. Hearing who looks good and who looks meh matters. I actually think you can take less away from pre-season games than the practices themselves. JMO. Speaking of Cousins, I would seriously laugh so hard if that guy flops. It would be comedic gold in my opinion lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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