The Supreme Court, and abortion.

[visionary]

Thread

[Renegade7]

5 hours ago, thegreaterbuzzette said:

I'm usually not much of a feminist. But the fact that so many of you aren't even willing to consider the Male having true consequence and accountability for a pregnancy is quite astonishing. Especially for this group.

 

No I'm not talking about "nutting early"....what are we 13?

 

I'm talking about shifting the thought to a Male being responsible for getting a woman pregnant, and not solely on the female for getting pregnant. 

 

As a black man, that's all I hear about how it's the dudes fault or responsibility.  It goes both ways, it should be equal responsibility, he knocked her up and she got knocked up, but that absolutely is not how the system treats it.

Edited May 17, 2019 by Renegade7

[twa]

7 hours ago, MartinC said:

 

You are entitled to an opinion. But a decision on what another human being does with their body? Not so much.

 

What about when can a medical professional take a human life?

 

I'm pretty open to personal freedom, freedom depends on others not being able to end your life though.

[TheGreatBuzz]

10 hours ago, LadySkinsFan said:

 

Males shouldn't have any say in women's bodily autonomy, period. They have their say in the process before conception, and if they don't want to be fathers and financially responsible for a child once it's born, they can exercise their own bodily autonomy using birth control methods available to them. This way, they practice positive and responsible choices for themselves. Too many males leave birth control decisions in the hands of females. Males can also practice abstinence, that way ensuring that they won't supply sperm without their express consent.

 

No one has the right to force females to complete a pregnancy. That's slavery.

 

 

 

 

For the record, I don't agree with forcing a women to have the baby.  If the father wants it and she doesn't, she should have the final say.  If the roles are reveresed and she wants it and he doesn't, he should not be able to force her to have it.  My issue is that if the women has 100% of the decision making power on whether to have it or not, there should be some way for the male to have a say also.  That is where the child support comes in.  And females have the same power to not get pregnant as the men if not more.  With great power comes great responsibility.

 

10 hours ago, Larry said:

Yes, I certainly think that every father in the world should be able to avoid all child support, for life, simply by saying "I told her to get an abortion".  

 

(Was that sarcastic enough?)   

 

But then the women would still of the choice to have the child or not knowing the father won't be in the picture.  Why is that wrong?

 

8 hours ago, thegreaterbuzzette said:

And did you then equate legalized rape to "fun"?????

 

@Larry I noticed you skipped over this question and I wanted to give you another opportunity to answer it.

 

6 hours ago, MartinC said:

 

Men - certainly fathers - should have input

 

If they have zero real power in the decision, how would their input even matter?

 

3 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

 

As a black man, that's all I hear about how it's the dudes fault or responsibility.  It goes both ways, it should be equal responsibility, he knocked her up and she got knocked up, but that absolutely is not how the system treats it.

 

Agree with this.  And what makes it worse is the one that gets the "blame" also has zero power with regards on how to deal with the situation.

[CousinsCowgirl84]

3 hours ago, visionary said:

Thread

 

 

This is ultimately an incredibly weak argument (not in a general sense, but on a individual basis).  Abusers have opportunity to abuse whether they have children or not.  She is making a better argument for assisted suicide.  “I’m a complete peice of **** who can’t be trusted with my own kids, i might do awful things to them”.

 

Great argument. Not going to get help, go to counciling, ect... nope, content to be a peice of ****... meanwhile the rest of us have to worry what you’re going to do to our kids.

 

 

That is such a stupid argument.

Edited May 17, 2019 by CousinsCowgirl84

[thegreaterbuzzette]

7 hours ago, Larry said:

 

Please describe for me a currently legal form of getting a woman pregnant without her consent.  

 

So, consent to sex is now consent to pregnancy?

 

Again, the CIS Male priviledge is oooooozing in this thread.

 

"I'm sterile." "I had a vasectomy" "I'll pull out" "yea I have a condom on" "trust me"

-just a few of the sampling of things men say because they dont want to wear a condom. Because deep down they know, if she gets pregnant..... not his problem.

[Larry]

 

Quote

But then the women would still of the choice to have the child or not knowing the father won't be in the picture.  Why is that wrong?

 

 

Yeah, what could be wrong about pretty much eliminating child support for all kids who would otherwise get it?  

 

Quote

@Larry I noticed you skipped over this question and I wanted to give you another opportunity to answer it.

 

 

I gave it the answer it deserved.  

 

33 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

This is ultimately an incredibly weak argument

 

Yeah, I mean, it's nowhere near as strong as "my mother didn't abort me, therefore I support taking that decision away from all pregnant women, from here on out".   

Edited May 17, 2019 by Larry

[twa]

9 minutes ago, thegreaterbuzzette said:

So, consent to sex is now consent to pregnancy?

 

Again, the CIS Male priviledge is oooooozing in this thread.

 

"I'm sterile." "I had a vasectomy" "I'll pull out" "yea I have a condom on" "trust me"

-just a few of the sampling of things men say because they dont want to wear a condom. Because deep down they know, if she gets pregnant..... not his problem.

 

Sex carries a number of risks.

 

Does 18+ years of child support sound like a problem or a privilege?  

 

[Larry]

22 minutes ago, thegreaterbuzzette said:

So, consent to sex is now consent to pregnancy?

 

Again, the CIS Male priviledge is oooooozing in this thread.

 

"I'm sterile." "I had a vasectomy" "I'll pull out" "yea I have a condom on" "trust me"

-just a few of the sampling of things men say because they dont want to wear a condom. Because deep down they know, if she gets pregnant..... not his problem.

 

Got it.  

 

Failure to pull out in time should now be criminalized.  (Or only if it results in pregnancy?  I'm not sure.)

 

Because males feel privileged.  

 

Just out of curiosity, to pull out (see what I did there?) a hypothetical that I assume has happened at least once, somewhere, If a woman tells a man that she has birth control, or it's not that time of the month, or something similar, and then becomes pregnant, should she be criminally prosecuted, under your proposed law?  

Edited May 17, 2019 by Larry

[twa]

Quote

 

"It is time that we stop letting white men legislate on reproductive issues, and that's why we're declaring Roe v. Wade null and void," one activist said at a rally in Alabama. "If you don't have a uterus, you don't get a say, so the decision that effectively made abortion a constitutional right is invalid."

She then led the protestors gathered in a chant: "No vagina, no ability to declare abortion a human right!"

At publishing time, Democrat activists had redoubled their efforts after learning the decision was made by a Republican-appointed majority.

https://babylonbee.com/news/in-order-to-stop-white-men-from-legislating-womens-bodies-democrats-fight-to-overturn-roe-v-wade

 

 

[thegreaterbuzzette]

7 minutes ago, Larry said:

 

Failure to pull out in time should now be criminalized.  (Or only if it results in pregnancy?  I'm not sure.)

 

You do understand that current/proposed laws do criminalize this now for a woman if she chooses abortion?

 

7 minutes ago, Larry said:

Just out of curiosity, to pull out (see what I did there?) a hypothetical that I assume has happened at least once, somewhere, If a woman tells a man that she has birth control, or it's not that time of the month, or something similar, and then becomes pregnant, should she be criminally prosecuted, under your proposed law?  

 

Again, under current/proposed law....she already will be if she chooses an abortion.

[TheGreatBuzz]

23 minutes ago, Larry said:

Yeah, what could be wrong about pretty much eliminating child support for all kids who would otherwise get it? 

 

So you think that every man who gets a women pregnant but is not in a committed relationship would just write off helping take care of that child?  The female would know ahead of time what she is getting into and would be able to decide if she wants to keep the child.  

 

The male having zero power the moment the sex act is over yet being held to such a high level of responsibility doesn't seem fair or right to me.

 

27 minutes ago, Larry said:

I gave it the answer it deserved.  

 

Seems that you pretty clearly equated rape to fun.  Interesting that you don't feel the need to clariify or walk it back.  

[Larry]

1 minute ago, thegreaterbuzzette said:

 

You do understand that current/proposed laws do criminalize this now for a woman if she chooses abortion?

 

 

Again, under current/proposed law....she already will be if she chooses an abortion.

 

And here I thought this entire hijack started because you stated that we needed laws to criminalize this.  Now you tell me it already is?  

 

Obviously I must be confused.  I keep having hallucinations of moving goalposts.  

[Larry]

1 minute ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

So you think that every man who gets a women pregnant but is not in a committed relationship would just write off helping take care of that child?

 

We've already had at least one poster in this thread announce that we can't allow a doctor to decide whether a woman's health is threatened, because the doctor might be an abortion doctor who will falsely claim her health is endangered, so that he can make some money off of the abortion.  

 

You don't think that giving millions of dads a choice between . . . 

 

1)  25% of your income for the next 18 years

2)  Or check this one box on this one form, and pay nothing.

 

. . . might give them a financial motivation to pick one option over the other?  

[thegreaterbuzzette]

20 minutes ago, Larry said:

 

And here I thought this entire hijack started because you stated that we needed laws to criminalize this.  Now you tell me it already is?  

 

Obviously I must be confused.  I keep having hallucinations of moving goalposts.  

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here. The difference is that it shifts the criminality to the Male instead of to the Female. 

 

I in no way feel this is a hijack. It is an alternate solution. One that may even result in less unplanned pregnancy and therefore less need for abortions.

 

For the record I think abortions are tragic, horrible, and totally preventable. I would never, ever want to partake. But, I would never want to take the right away from someone that feels it is necessary and their best option.

 

We need to fix the problem, not the solution.

Edited May 17, 2019 by thegreaterbuzzette

[Larry]

19 minutes ago, thegreaterbuzzette said:

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here. The difference is that it shifts the criminality to the Male instead of to the Female. 

 

You lost the benefit of the doubt a day or so ago, when you started this whole notion of "well, the woman can consent to having sex, but if there's a pregnancy, then the man should be criminally prosecuted."  

 

It doesn't "shift the criminality", because there isn't any criminality to shift.  

 

Right now, unintended pregnancy, even if it involves false or misleading statements, is not criminal on either party.  

 

Do you want to criminalize it for both?  

Edited May 17, 2019 by Larry

[thegreaterbuzzette]

House Bill 314, criminalizes the procedure, reclassifying abortion as a Class A felony, punishable by up to 99 years in prison for doctors. Attempted abortions will be reclassified as a Class C penalty. 

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/alabama-abortion-law-passed-alabama-passes-near-total-abortion-ban-with-no-exceptions-for-rape-or-incest-2019-05-14/ 

 

....seems pretty criminal to me. 

Edited May 17, 2019 by thegreaterbuzzette
Source

[dfitzo53]

@thegreaterbuzzette I want to ask a clarifying question. 

 

Here's what I understand so far: Criminalizing abortions puts all of the legal consequences on women. You believe men should share in the consequences for an unintended pregnancy. 

 

If I understand you right, your position is less that men should be punished for getting women pregnant, but that the father should also be punished in the case of an abortion. Is that right?

 

If so, I can understand that line of thinking, but I see some pitfalls as well. What if the father doesn't want to abort the baby, but the mother does? Are they actually equally culpable?

 

(For what it's worth, I believe most abortions should be legal.)

[Destino]

1 hour ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

This is ultimately an incredibly weak argument (not in a general sense, but on a individual basis). 

It’s fatalistic nonsense.  

[thegreaterbuzzette]

7 minutes ago, dfitzo53 said:

@thegreaterbuzzette I want to ask a clarifying question. 

 

Here's what I understand so far: Criminalizing abortions puts all of the legal consequences on women. You believe men should share in the consequences for an unintended pregnancy. 

 

If I understand you right, your position is less that men should be punished for getting women pregnant, but that the father should also be punished in the case of an abortion. Is that right?

 

If so, I can understand that line of thinking, but I see some pitfalls as well. What if the father doesn't want to abort the baby, but the mother does? Are they actually equally culpable?

 

(For what it's worth, I believe most abortions should be legal.)

 

There is no easy answer to any of it. It's broader conversations and thought provoking questions that need to occur.

 

It will never be truly equal/fair because at the end of the day, only women can bare children.

 

I also think there is unjust because a woman alone can choose to terminate a pregnancy even if the father does not want her to. But if a man does not desire the pregnancy be kept to term, he is still obligated to child support. 

 

In a perfect world, people would not have sex unless fully accepting of consequences...but this world is by no means perfect. 

[Larry]

13 minutes ago, thegreaterbuzzette said:

House Bill 314, criminalizes the procedure, reclassifying abortion as a Class A felony, punishable by up to 99 years in prison for doctors. Attempted abortions will be reclassified as a Class C penalty. 

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/alabama-abortion-law-passed-alabama-passes-near-total-abortion-ban-with-no-exceptions-for-rape-or-incest-2019-05-14/ 

 

....seems pretty criminal to me. 

 

And bank robbery is criminal, too.  

 

Has absolutely nothing to do with the call you're still pushing, to criminalize unintended pregnancy.  But then, neither does your above post.  

 

And ill repeat for a third (fourth?) time:  The law which you're still arguing for, to criminalize unintended pregnancy.  Do you propose to make it apply equally to both genders?  

 

No "but after the unintended pregnancy, if the woman, singly and completely on her own, chooses to commit a criminal act, then the penalty will apply solely to the person who committed the act" has absolutely nothing to do with what you proposed.  

 

Moving the claim a fifth time will not work any better than the previous four attempts.  

 

[Renegade7]

1 hour ago, thegreaterbuzzette said:

So, consent to sex is now consent to pregnancy?

 

Again, the CIS Male priviledge is oooooozing in this thread.

 

"I'm sterile." "I had a vasectomy" "I'll pull out" "yea I have a condom on" "trust me"

-just a few of the sampling of things men say because they dont want to wear a condom. Because deep down they know, if she gets pregnant..... not his problem.

 

This sounds more like a lawsuit then criminal charges.

 

And for the record, I didnt see anyone say to get rid of child support, but to stop having parents pay it, let government do it or find different way to get those resources to the person applying for it.

[Destino]

The frustrating aspect of this entire debate is that logically reaching a broad consensus should be possible, like so many political arguments it boils down to where our society prefers to draw the lines.  Reaching it, however, feels all but impossible.  

 

Hard prolife and prochoice sides are not interested in compromise and both hold a great deal of political influence.  Politicians can easily be argued to benefit from having this battle continue.  Even if you get by those two problems, you have court rulings that limit what legislative options might look like.

 

 

[thegreaterbuzzette]

8 minutes ago, Destino said:

The frustrating aspect of this entire debate is that logically reaching a broad consensus should be possible, like so many political arguments it boils down to where our society prefers to draw the lines.  Reaching it, however, feels all but impossible.  

 

Hard prolife and prochoice sides are not interested in compromise and both hold a great deal of political influence.  Politicians can easily be argued to benefit from having this battle continue.  Even if you get by those two problems, you have court rulings that limit what legislative options might look like.

 

 

#nailedit

 

 

[Larry]

6 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

And for the record, I didnt see anyone say to get rid of child support,

 

Do you see anyone saying to get away with child support if the Dad says he told Mom to abort?  

 

Cause I saw that.  (And I'll point out, it's a common suggestion when this subject rises from the dead.  I'm not trying to single out one person for using what I think is a monumentally dishonest suggestion.  My problem is with the suggestion.)  And I'm absolutely certain that the end of child support is the predictable consequence of that proposal.