The immigration thread: American Melting Pot or Get off my Lawn

[Hersh]

24 minutes ago, Weganator said:

The reduction in the rise of undocumented labor is directly beneficial to the legal workers in that respective field. I won't try to speak to the macroeconomic effects of it, its not my area of expertise. I can tell you that these construction workers don't care what happens to the DOW, et al, most of them aren't invested in the market at all.

 

But a direct increase to their wages, as long as it doesn't correspond with a major inflationary event, will make the lives of some of our poorest citizens better.

 

Increasing wages are definitely a positive and when I talk about the economy, I'm not talking about the stock market. The problem is that there are still major labor shortages and if you further reduce the workforce, projects will be postponed. That's the issue. Even with increased wages, that doesn't mean those jobs will be filled as needed. 

[tshile]

48 minutes ago, Hersh said:

 

Wages haven't gone up, according to the article that was posted, due to deportations. So while it's good that wages have increased, if you deport a lot of construction labor workers in that area, it doesn't positively impact the overall economy as there will be less overall construction work being done.  

Is less overall construction work being done inherently bad? 

 

If more people, from a group of generally low income earners, are working more and making more money can the good from that out weight the bad from less construction being done?

 

 

Edited September 5, 2017 by tshile

[visionary]

 

[Hersh]

8 hours ago, tshile said:

Is less overall construction work being done inherently bad? 

 

If more people, from a group of generally low income earners, are working more and making more money can the good from that out weight the bad from less construction being done?

 

 

When the country as a whole has infrastructure issues, yes, less construction is a bad thing. 

[Larry]

10 hours ago, tshile said:

Is less overall construction work being done inherently bad? 

 

If more people, from a group of generally low income earners, are working more and making more money can the good from that out weight the bad from less construction being done?

 

 

 

Well, obviously, increasing wages CAN reach the point where it's bad for the economy. 

 

Replace 100 workers who were making $15/hour with one guy making $100, and it's probably bad for the economy. 

 

Is is it at that point?  (I have no doubt that people can find economists who will say either). 

[tshile]

3 hours ago, Hersh said:

When the country as a whole has infrastructure issues, yes, less construction is a bad thing. 

Is the construction that would be missing out infrastructure?

 

I thought we were still waiting for an infrastructure bill?

 

[tshile]

37 minutes ago, Larry said:

 

Well, obviously, increasing wages CAN reach the point where it's bad for the economy. 

 

Replace 100 workers who were making $15/hour with one guy making $100, and it's probably bad for the economy. 

 

Is is it at that point?  (I have no doubt that people can find economists who will say either). 

 

Well, there's more to it than general economic output. Where that money is going, and what is happening to the group that's not receiving it matters.

We're not talking about replacing 100 workers with one. We're talking about laborers, one of the most vulnerable segments of the labor force (I mean who's worse? minimum wage retail/restaurant workers is all I can think of, and they seem on the same level no necessarily worse?), receiving more money for working and their skill set being in demand.

 

[Hersh]

8 minutes ago, tshile said:

Is the construction that would be missing out infrastructure?

 

I thought we were still waiting for an infrastructure bill?

 

 

I'm sure it's not all infrastructure construction but that doesn't mean long delays isn't a negative. Could be redevelopment, could be schools, etc. Do we really want long delays in rebuilding Houston? That's on top of all the projects already underway.

7 minutes ago, tshile said:

 

Well, there's more to it than general economic output. Where that money is going, and what is happening to the group that's not receiving it matters.

We're not talking about replacing 100 workers with one. We're talking about laborers, one of the most vulnerable segments of the labor force (I mean who's worse? minimum wage retail/restaurant workers is all I can think of, and they seem on the same level no necessarily worse?), receiving more money for working and their skill set being in demand.

 

Given all the necessary construction work needing to be done and that infrastructure/redevelopment is never ending, high paying construction jobs won't be leaving. 

[tshile]

11 minutes ago, Hersh said:

 

I'm sure it's not all infrastructure construction but that doesn't mean long delays isn't a negative. Could be redevelopment, could be schools, etc. Do we really want long delays in rebuilding Houston? That's on top of all the projects already underway.

Given all the necessary construction work needing to be done and that infrastructure/redevelopment is never ending, high paying construction jobs won't be leaving. 

 

Right, i'm not saying it's not a negative, I'm just trying to figure out how to measure one against the other.

 

Economists use economic output as the end-all-be-all of discussions like this, but that just simply doesn't measure everything. We have a problem of a wealth/income gap, underemployment, discouraged workers, and the lower ends of the work force being incredibly vulnerable to economic swings (and definitely crises.) We know this leads to increases in serious drug addiction and crime. There's a lot of things that are hard to measure when we talk about people not feeling part of our society (not just drugs and crime, but terrorism and radicalism in general)

 

I'm trying to figure out if higher paying construction jobs, and people with labor skill sets being in much higher demand, might possible be better for us than simply measuring economic output. Whether it might be better than simply using tax revenue for social programs (the typical solution to helping this group of people - pay for helathcare, college, food stamps, unemployment, etc)

 

If more people at the bottom are working and making more, and feeling better about their role in society, might that outweigh the negatives of delays? Shouldn't we be able to deal with the delays by hiring more people, shouldn't the labor force for this work balance out in the long term even if it lags behind short term?

 

Edited September 5, 2017 by tshile

[Hersh]

2 minutes ago, tshile said:

 

Right, i'm not saying it's not a negative, I'm just trying to figure out how to measure one against the other.

 

Economists use economic output as the end-all-be-all of discussions like this, but that just simply doesn't measure everything. We have a problem of a wealth/income gap, underemployment, discouraged workers, and the lower ends of the work force being incredibly vulnerable to economic swings (and definitely crises.) We know this leads to increases in serious drug addiction and crime. There's a lot of things that are hard to measure when we talk about people not feeling part of our society (not just drugs and crime, but terrorism and radicalism in general)

 

I'm trying to figure out if higher paying construction jobs, and people with labor skill sets being in much higher demand, might possible be better for us than simply measuring economic output. Whether it might be better than simply using tax revenue for social programs (the typical solution to helping this group of people - pay for helathcare, college, food stamps, unemployment, etc)

 

If more people at the bottom are working and making more, and feeling better about their role in society, might that outweigh the negatives of delays? Shouldn't we be able to deal with the delays by hiring more people, shouldn't the labor force for this work balance out in the long term even if it lags behind short term?

 

 

Don't know if you looked at the article that Weg had posted but it said wages had gone up in construction jobs from 2013-2016 and there was still a major labor shortage. Keeping immigrants here that are in construction is not going to drive wages back down given the shortage. Of course the shortage also means more Americans could take these jobs if they wanted to. 

[tshile]

1 minute ago, Hersh said:

 

Of course the shortage also means more Americans could take these jobs if they wanted to. 

 

Which is more of what i'm talking about.

I understand this problem didn't just happen. I'm speaking to the general theme of labor shortage because immigrants are leaving.

 

I also think it's worth differentiating between legal immigrants (work visas for example) and illegal immigrants. The rules for how both work are different, as are the economic impacts.

 

But we have a problem in this country with people working and it shows up in how tax revenue is spent, the drug issue, crime, and we're seeing it now in radicalization. I just think there's more to the issue than labor shortages and higher wages leading to increase costs.

[visionary]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[LadySkinsFan]

For example, look at the plight of coal industry workers. Democrats proposed job training for other jobs. Republicans said that they were bringing coal jobs back, and people who know about these things knows that's not true. However, as is true of humans, the coal workers want to believe that jobs that they are already trained for will indeed come back so they vote for Republicans. 

 

I find this exceedingly cruel to mislead these people instead of preparing them for the reality of disappearing jobs and assist them in training for and finding jobs to support themselves and their families. 

 

But but no, the Republicans lie to these people. It's just sick.

 

Edited to add: After reading that Sessions says that ending DACA is the compassionate thing to do, I suggest that he's a loon and a creep.

Edited September 5, 2017 by LadySkinsFan

[visionary]

 

 

 

[FanboyOf91]

Here's to higher crime rates in the long term.

[visionary]

 

[visionary]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 5, 2017 by visionary

[visionary]

 

 

 

 

So they say.

[visionary]

 

 

'Now excuse me, while I go high-five Joe Arpaio!'

 

 

 

[visionary]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[visionary]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

'And by home, I mean somewhere you haven't lived in over a decade and may not even remember.'

Edited September 5, 2017 by visionary

[Warhead36]

Dreamers and people under DACA are literally the embodiment of the American Dream.

 

F u Trump.

[Duckus]

Haven't posted in a while, but I pray every night that Trump dies of a brain aneurysm. 

[StillUnknown]

3 minutes ago, Duckus said:

Haven't posted in a while, but I pray every night that Trump dies of a brain aneurysm. 

 

i used to want him to suffer, now I'll just take dead in any form it comes

[twa]

6 minutes ago, Duckus said:

Haven't posted in a while, but I pray every night that Trump dies of a brain aneurysm. 

 

I think you are doing it wrong.