The Gun Control Debate Thread

[Jumbo]

well, i haven't been here this week until earlier today, so let me check in on this one topic to make sure there's no big changes:

 

there are many millions of gun owners and the vast majority are law-abiding, firearm-responsible citizens and a much smaller, but still substantial, number of them would also qualify as "good guys with a gun" when carrying

 

it would actually be part of the solution to mass shootings and gun violence if there were more good guys with guns in more places

 

now there are more guns than people in the usa---- let's call it 350, 000, 000 to be on the conservative side

 

the vast majority of which are owned by fine people and a fair number of strapped good guys (that means we should have a heapin' helpin' of well-armed good guys out there) far larger in size than in any other industrialized nation

 

and so, as a result,  the usa has less mass shootings and fewer victims of gun violence than any other industrialized nation

 

we good, or did  i miss something? 

 

 

(anyone turn in their specific mental health legislation/methodology ideas since that's priority #1 in addressing gun jabberwocky?)

 

 

 

[China]

Another "controlled" gun making students safer:

 

First Graders Picked Up Gun Intended to Protect Ohio School

 

Two first graders found and removed a gun from an unlocked case that was brought to an Ohio school as part of a concealed-carry program to protect the school from gun violence, The Columbus Dispatch reports. The students at Highland Elementary, near the town of Sparta, reportedly picked up the weapon when a school official authorized by the district to carry it went to use a restroom. The school didn’t report the incident, which occurred in March—it only became public after the county sheriff found out about it through a resident’s Facebook post, which inspired community debates about whether school staff should be armed.

 

Click on the link for the full article

[Larry]

Looks like the chronology was:

 

1)  Decide to put a (multiple?) gun in the school.  

2)  Bring the gun into the echool, in an unlocked box.

3)  Walk off and leave it there, while you go to Little Boy's room.  

4)  Two first graders find gun and begin playing with it.  

5)  Say and do nothing about it.  

6)  Till locals begin posting about it on Facebook.  

7)  Then decide that maybe the community should talk about whether they want a gun in the school.  

[Cooked Crack]

 

[Larry]

19 minutes ago, Cooked Crack said:

 

 

I think the ideal wordage is "Daddy's going to be in jail for two years, for giving an AR-15 to a 10 year old."  

[twa]

14 hours ago, Larry said:

 

I think the ideal wordage is "Daddy's going to be in jail for two years, for giving an AR-15 to a 10 year old."  

 

gun grabber.

 

https://www.cnn.com/2014/10/17/living/10-year-old-competitive-shooter-irpt/index.html

 

Edited August 17, 2019 by twa

[Cooked Crack]

 

[Cooked Crack]

 

[TheGreatBuzz]

^^^  Has any of them come out with a description of what would be included in a ban?  I know the details don't matter to most but they do to me.

[twa]

2 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

^^^  Has any of them come out with a description of what would be included in a ban?  I know the details don't matter to most but they do to me.

 

You will be required to ship it and all accessories to me for safekeeping,

[Cooked Crack]

4 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

^^^  Has any of them come out with a description of what would be included in a ban?  I know the details don't matter to most but they do to me.

https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/senate-bill/66/all-info

[TheGreatBuzz]

1 minute ago, twa said:

 

You will be required to ship it and all accessories to me for safekeeping,

Sorry dude, I wouldn't trust you with one of those small PVC pipe blow guns that shoot tiny marshmallows.

[TheGreatBuzz]

7 minutes ago, Cooked Crack said:

https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/senate-bill/66/all-info

 

Thanks.  Read through the bill and its descriptions.  No way in hell I'll vote for someone supporting that.  Definitions way too broad.  I honestly don't think that would pass with a Dem prez and congress.

 

Knew this would happen.  Trying to make too big a change at one time.

[Larry]

I just read through parts of it, and it looks pretty clear to me.  In some cases, think they added too many things to it.  For example, I don't see why they felt it necessary to specify a semiauto rifile with a removeable magazine and one of the following other characteristics.  (And, if I design my new AR-15a so it doesn't accept those options, then is it good to go?)  

 

It's really long, could have easily missed something important.  (Although it seems like 2/3 of the thing is a list of weapons that are explicitly exempt from the law.  And again, I'm wondering why they felt like they had to exempt those models.  Are they saying their criteria would have applied to this model, if it wasn't explicitly exempted?)  

 

I do note that it aparantly does not ban most semiauto pistols, which was something that I wanted.  

[tshile]

1. i don't like the insistence of grandfathering.

 

if i can't have them then you buying them a year ago shouldn't change that.

 

also it exempts sales between private parties.

 

i suppose its a start but not the bill i would put forth, and i'm inclined to think a series of smaller bills would be better (but that requires a functioning government so...)

[tshile]

31 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

 

Thanks.  Read through the bill and its descriptions.  No way in hell I'll vote for someone supporting that. 

It's reading to me as the AWB v2

 

Am i missing something? it looks like the exact same definitions

 

[TheGreatBuzz]

2 minutes ago, tshile said:

It's reading to me as the AWB v2

 

Am i missing something? it looks like the exact same definitions

 

For the most part.  Except the way I read it, it included ALL semi-auto plus those with certain features.   Maybe I read it wrong.

[Larry]

10 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

For the most part.  Except the way I read it, it included ALL semi-auto plus those with certain features.   Maybe I read it wrong.

 

Sure doesn't read that way to me.  Just to pull out one part of the thing:  

Quote

 

“(36) The term ‘semiautomatic assault weapon’ means any of the following, regardless of country of manufacture or caliber of ammunition accepted:

“(A) A semiautomatic rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any 1 of the following:

“(i) A pistol grip.

“(ii) A forward grip.

“(iii) A folding, telescoping, or detachable stock, or is otherwise foldable or adjustable in a manner that operates to reduce the length, size, or any other dimension, or otherwise enhances the concealability, of the weapon.

“(iv) A grenade launcher.

“(v) A barrel shroud.

“(vi) A threaded barrel.

 

 

Now, maybe I'm being overly picky, but I think I'd say "1 or more of the following".  Since I think that as it's worded now, if my werapon has a pistol grip AND a grenade launcher, then it's not covered, since it has 2 of the following, not 1.  

 

I'm also assuming that "a threaded barrel" means it's threaded at the muzzle end, since I at least think all barrels are threaded at the receiver end.  

 

I also originally read that as though the gun must have a grenade launcher.  But I can see how it might say "capacity to accept a grenade launcher".  

 

(Although then the rules lawyer in me wonders - If I make a grenade launcher that fits your deer rifle, then does it magically become an assault weapon?)

[TheGreatBuzz]

10 minutes ago, Larry said:

 

Sure doesn't read that way to me.  Just to pull out one part of the thing:  

 

 

There may be a few exceptions (though I can't think of one) that are semi-auto rifles that don't include one of those items.  I'm totally against a detachable magazine bam, though might agree to a size limit.

 

There is also room for debate in the manner they described the action.

 

Also threaded barrel I don't see the need to include.

 

[tshile]

6 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

Also threaded barrel I don't see the need to include.

 

What is the purpose of the threaded barrel that you want to keep?

[Larry]

2 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

There may be a few exceptions (though I can't think of one) that are semi-auto rifles that don't include one of those items.  I'm totally against a detachable magazine bam, though might agree to a size limit.

 

There is also room for debate in the manner they described the action.

 

Also threaded barrel I don't see the need to include.

 

 

FWIW, further down the bill, they do define a forward grip as a device which fully or functionally encloses the barrell, to protect the shooter's hand from heat.  And specifies that a forward grip which is an extention of the stock, and does not enclose the barrell, doesn't count.  (I'm paraphtasing.  And it seemed vague to me.)  

 

Might want to strike "forward grip" from that description, since I'm not sure if my daddy's deer rifle counts as a "forward grip".  (It's not semi auto, but I'm saying I wouldn't want a semi-auto version of his rifle to count.)  

 

Granting, I'm not sure I've even seen a semi auto rifle that isn't an assault weapon.  But that probably says more about my ignorance than anything else.  The weapons that I think of as "semi auto, but not an assault weapon" are semi auto shotguns.  And I assume there are rifles that are similar to those.  

 

Which characteristics do you figure almost all semi auto rifles accept?

[TheGreatBuzz]

6 minutes ago, tshile said:

What is the purpose of the threaded barrel that you want to keep?

Muzzle break.

 

3 minutes ago, Larry said:

The weapons that I think of as "semi auto, but not an assault weapon" are semi auto shotguns.  And I assume there are rifles that are similar to those.  

I go back to the good ole m1a.

 

4 minutes ago, Larry said:

Which characteristics do you figure almost all semi auto rifles accept?

Not sure what you're asking.  Which characteristics should make a semi auto banned?  What defines a semi auto?  Just not clear where you're going with this. 

[Larry]

1 minute ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

Not sure what you're asking.  Which characteristics should make a semi auto banned?  What defines a semi auto?  Just not clear where you're going with this. 

 

At least as I read your post, I think you're saying that almost all semi auto rifles accept "one of the following" from the list.  I'm wondering which of those characteristics you figure applies to almost all semi auto rifles.  
 

- - - 

 

Just did a quick Wiki on M1a.  I found the entry for M1, don't see an "a".  

 

I wouldn't call it an "assault weapon".  Although I do have to say, if I want to cut down on mass shootings, my criteria would be 

 

1)  Semi auto

2)  Removable magazine.

3)  And that's it.  I wouldn't bother with their "one of the following" list.  

 

But I would be trying to limit a shooter's ability to fire maybe 50 or more rounds in 60 seconds, not looking for what is or isn't an "assault weapon".  (I can see cases where someone may need the ability to fire 10 rounds in 10 seconds,  But I want him to have to spend 10-15 seconds reloading, after he does.)  

[TheGreatBuzz]

9 hours ago, Larry said:

At least as I read your post, I think you're saying that almost all semi auto rifles accept "one of the following" from the list.  I'm wondering which of those characteristics you figure applies to almost all semi auto rifles.  

Ater reading through the bill again (with a few less drinks in my belly) there are actually a fair number of semi-auto rifles that would be legal still (but it would be a small number).  I thought the definition of semi-auto pistol and how it operates was also part of the definition of assault weapon.  So I was wrong on that.

 

9 hours ago, Larry said:

Just did a quick Wiki on M1a.  I found the entry for M1, don't see an "a". 

I think you must have hit a wrong button.  Here is the wiki page.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield_Armory_M1A

 

9 hours ago, Larry said:

I wouldn't call it an "assault weapon". 

 

Neither does wiki.  

Quote

. The M1A / M1A1 is categorized as a battle or hunting rifle, not assault rifle

 

Though the barrel shroud would probably make them all illegal.  The way I'm reading it 

Quote

“(38) The term ‘barrel shroud’—

“(A) means a shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel of a firearm so that the shroud protects the user of the firearm from heat generated by the barrel; and

“(B) does not include—

“(i) a slide that partially or completely encloses the barrel; or

“(ii) an extension of the stock along the bottom of the barrel which does not encircle or substantially encircle the barrel.

If you look at the picture of an M1a at the top right of the wiki page, that dark brown piece under the front of the scope is a detachable piece that is not part of the stock.  But I also note that an M1A is not on the list of banned guns.  So who knows.......

 

I personally think this is an example of trying to move too far, too fast.  Get background checks passed.  Then move on maybe a magazine size limit.  Even if the Dems had control of Legisltative and Executive branches, I don't think you could get this passed.  

 

Also it gets rid of ALL semi-auto handguns (at least how I read it).  That I am 1,000% against.  Though I do support treating "AR style handguns" and such as something that needs much stricter regulations if not an outright ban.

 

 

 

Edited August 20, 2019 by TheGreatBuzz
I don't know left from right.

[Larry]

24 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

 

Also it gets rid of ALL semi-auto handguns (at least how I read it).  

 

Their definition of "semiautomatic assault weapon", continued. 

 

“(D) A semiautomatic pistol that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any 1 of the following:

“(i) A threaded barrel.

“(ii) A second pistol grip.

“(iii) A barrel shroud.

“(iv) The capacity to accept a detachable magazine at some location outside of the pistol grip.

“(v) A semiautomatic version of an automatic firearm.

“(vi) A manufactured weight of 50 ounces or more when unloaded.

“(vii) A stabilizing brace or similar component.

“(E) A semiautomatic pistol with a fixed magazine that has the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.

 

(And I note that their definition of a barrel shroud states that a slide that covers the entire top of the pistol doesn't count).