The Gun Control Debate Thread

[Llevron]

Love the fact that we are ****ing and moaning about twisting peoples arguments but if I mention the fact that less guns means less gun violence I am immediately meet with OH YOU WANT TO DISARM POLICE?!

 

Yall are so full of **** sometimes its actually alarming. But keep up with the act though. 

[PeterMP]

8 minutes ago, Llevron said:

Love the fact that we are ****ing and moaning about twisting peoples arguments but if I mention the fact that less guns means less gun violence I am immediately meet with OH YOU WANT TO DISARM POLICE?!

 

Yall are so full of **** sometimes its actually alarming. But keep up with the act though. 

 

I spent lots of posts explaining my view point.  You've never addressed why well trained and screened teachers would have a different impact on gun violence than cops.

 

You just write less guns means less gun violence as if that applies to everybody equally cops, well trained and screened teachers, and the general public.

 

In general, more cops with guns is good.  At the level of the general public, more guns mean more gun violence.  Is there nothing in between?  Is there a reason  we can't hit that in between spot with (some) teachers?

Edited February 28, 2018 by PeterMP

[Going Commando]

15 hours ago, Predicto said:

I almost feel like this is firm proof of the Overton window, and what it does to people.

 

It absolutely is.  And it is proof of how effective Right wing messaging is, that they can get so much of the public distracted with this unfathomably stupid ****ing idea until the anger over the Parkland atrocity abates so that absolutely nothing will be done about it.

 

PeterMP's support for this nonsense is disappointing.  As far as I can gather, this is because he fears that implementing gun control won't work and that the Right will use its ineffectiveness to strike down the gun control legislation we pass today in ten years.  And so he supports this God awful idea whose implementation could only ever be a ****ing mess?

 

It is long past time for the older generations to pass the torch of government to the younger ones.  They've swung so far to the Right that they've lost their ****ing minds.  The only thing that gives me any hope is that younger generations seem better inoculated against Right Wing idiocy and that they won't tolerate this insanity for long.

[PeterMP]

9 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

It absolutely is.  And it is proof of how effective Right wing messaging is, that they can get so much of the public distracted with this unfathomably stupid ****ing idea until the anger over the Parkland atrocity abates so that absolutely nothing will be done about it.

 

PeterMP's support for this nonsense is disappointing.  As far as I can gather, this is because he fears that implementing gun control won't work and that the Right will use its ineffectiveness to strike down the gun control legislation we pass today in ten years.  And so he supports this God awful idea whose implementation could only ever be a ****ing mess?

 

It is long past time for the older generations to pass the torch of government to the younger ones.  They've swung so far to the Right that they've lost their ****ing minds.  The only thing that gives me any hope is that younger generations seem better inoculated against Right Wing idiocy and that they won't tolerate this insanity for long.

 

I'm not afraid that implementing good control won't work.  I do fear we are going to see the left focus on things that are not good control.

 

Even given that, I'm as sure as I'm sure about anything in this world that even given good gun control that we are likely to implement, there are still going to be mass shootings.  Even if the left gets it together and supports good gun control what is going to pass and will be upheld by the Supreme Court, there are still going to be school shootings.  We can implement good control save lives and still end up with school shootings.

 

Given that, I think it is worth asking is there something we can do beyond gun control that will save lives.

 

Isn't saving lives a good thing?

Edited February 28, 2018 by PeterMP

[AsburySkinsFan]

 

[Burgold]

Was just going to post the news about Dick's. Good decision. I wonder if they'll get sued for it? 

 

They can't get sued for not carrying inventory, but can they be sued for discrimination for imposing their own minimum age requirements?

[Llevron]

34 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

I spent lots of posts explaining my view point.  You've never addressed why well trained and screened teachers would have a different impact on gun violence than cops.

 

You just write less guns means less gun violence as if that applies to everybody equally cops, well trained and screened teachers, and the general public.

 

In general, more cops with guns is good.  At the level of the general public, more guns mean more gun violence.  Is there nothing in between?  Is there a reason  we can't hit that in between spot with (some) teachers?

 

See what I'm sayin?

[PeterMP]

54 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

It is long past time for the older generations to pass the torch of government to the younger ones.  They've swung so far to the Right that they've lost their ****ing minds.  The only thing that gives me any hope is that younger generations seem better inoculated against Right Wing idiocy and that they won't tolerate this insanity for long.

 

Oh and millennials are about as pro-gun as older generations.

 

https://www.npr.org/2018/02/24/588069946/millennials-are-no-more-liberal-on-gun-control-than-elders-polls-show

Edited February 28, 2018 by PeterMP

[PeterMP]

17 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

See what I'm sayin?

 

See what I'm sayin?

[twa]

Just now, Burgold said:

Was just going to post the news about Dick's. Good decision. I wonder if they'll get sued for it? 

 

They can't get sued for not carrying inventory, but can they be sued for discrimination for imposing their own minimum age requirements?

 

Don't think under 21 is a protected class for gun rights, could be wrong..

Almost certain to be sued under some statute/reg though....tis the American way.

[Llevron]

5 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

See what I'm sayin?

 

Oh I know you don't get it. But understand that your credibility on the matter, especially with me, is at an all time low. 

 

If I have to really explain to you the difference between a police officer and a teacher then I think the problem is between those ears of yours and not my two thumbs. But if it makes you feel justified in your horrible position that people are not giving you a fair shake or whatever you have determined is happening here than you can have it. 

 

Just don't expect me to stop calling you out on your bull****. 

 

Again, for record. I state a fact about guns. That you are safer without one than you are with one. That is statistically proven to be fact. And your retort is, what's the difference between teachers and cops. Fine. You play that game. Ima play my own lol

[AsburySkinsFan]

36 minutes ago, Burgold said:

Was just going to post the news about Dick's. Good decision. I wonder if they'll get sued for it? 

 

They can't get sued for not carrying inventory, but can they be sued for discrimination for imposing their own minimum age requirements?

It’ll be fun watching the “store owner rights” group saying that Dick’s doesn’t have the same rights as the baker down the street.

[Burgold]

Just now, AsburySkinsFan said:

It’ll be fun watching the “store owner rights” group saying that Dick’s doesn’t have the same rights as the baker down the street.

Except they never display any guilt over mental dissonance.  What's good for the gander is never good for the goose nor is the thought ever entertained.

[AsburySkinsFan]

34 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

See what I'm sayin?

Yup, totally feasible to arm, and train teachers to law enforcement levels...lets check Kentucky Governor’s latest budget proposal’s effect on public schools.... 

 

[twa]

Are you safer with or w/o a gun when you cannot flee and a shooter is approaching?

 

If we are not worried about (school) shooters then the latter is certainly true.

Just now, AsburySkinsFan said:

It’ll be fun watching the “store owner rights” group saying that Dick’s doesn’t have the same rights as the baker down the street.

 

And watching ya'll saying denying service is a good thing. 

[AsburySkinsFan]

4 minutes ago, twa said:

 

And watching ya'll saying denying service is a good thing. 

This isn’t denying service, simply delaying it. 

[PeterMP]

14 minutes ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

Yup, totally feasible to arm, and train teachers to law enforcement levels...lets check Kentucky Governor’s latest budget proposal’s effect on public schools.... 

 

 

From the little I've talked to cops, they consider one of the most dangerous parts of their job approaching a car at a traffic stop.  They can run the plates, but at the end of the day, they don't know that person in that car or what they are capable of.  Plus they are exposed to the other traffic.

 

For the purposes herein, where I don't intend to see teachers doing cop traffic duty, can I get teachers to the point that they are as safe or safer without actually giving them all of the training of cops?

 

Can I say that given what we'd want teachers to do they can be as safe and maybe even safer than cops without being trained on how to approach a vehicle safely during a traffic stop?

 

I don't want teacher clearing buildings.  Can I train teachers to do a limited number of things where they are good and safe at doing those things and maybe even safer than cops at doing them, but don't have all of the training as a cop?

Edited February 28, 2018 by PeterMP

[twa]

Just now, AsburySkinsFan said:

This isn’t denying service, simply delaying it. 

 

Yeah, let the bakers say get back to me in three years and see how you react. 

[PeterMP]

The funny thing is Larry has agreed that there are some set of conditions where he'd agree that are less than training the teacher as a cop (he would require building a biometric gun lock into every class room).

 

Burgold and visionary both ended up taking on pretty neutral views.

 

Anybody that has actually engaged in the conversation has essentially ended up admitting it isn't an unreasonable view point.

Edited February 28, 2018 by PeterMP

[tshile]

1 hour ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

So why do people keep bringing it up?

Because it's easier to claim someone's argument is absurd when you make up and absurd argument and then assign it to them first.

[tshile]

4 hours ago, PeterMP said:

There were a few days where every 3 or 4 pages, I would essentially make the same posts to somebody new.  You'd get the level of conversation to the point where there was at least understanding and maybe even some agreement and somebody new would come into the conversation, and it would start all over again.

 

Which is why this has become pointless.

 

People are not willing to be honest about it, and those that are aren't willing to put in any work to read the conversation before jumping in.

[AsburySkinsFan]

23 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

From the little I've talked to cops, they consider one of the most dangerous parts of their job approaching a car at a traffic stop.  They can run the plates, but at the end of the day, they don't know that person in that car or what they are capable of.  Plus they are exposed to the other traffic.

 

For the purposes herein, where I don't intend to see teachers doing cop traffic duty, can I get teachers to the point that they are as safe or safer without actually giving them all of the training of cops?

 

Can I say that given what we'd want teachers to do they can be as safe and maybe even safer than cops without being trained on how to approach a vehicle safely during a traffic stop?

 

I don't want teacher clearing buildings.  Can I train teachers to do a limited number of things where they are good and safe at doing those things and maybe even safer than cops at doing them, but don't have all of the training as a cop?

No, not when thecsame group wanting those things is also working to close half our schools due to budget cuts.

The first hurdle you have with me is to prove that more guns makes us safer...which isn’t true.

The second is budgeting.

You cannot get to the second without clearing the first, not cutsies.

[PeterMP]

20 minutes ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

No, not when thecsame group wanting those things is also working to close half our schools due to budget cuts.

The first hurdle you have with me is to prove that more guns makes us safer...which isn’t true.

The second is budgeting.

You cannot get to the second without clearing the first, not cutsies.

 

Okay, I'll ask you the same question that Lleverno is complaining about.  Then are for disarming at least large numbers of police?  If more guns don't make us safer, then most cops shouldn't have guns, right? (And I will point out that there are countries that take that attitude).

 

Look, I'm against budget cuts to schools.  Right off the bat, I'd say the program would have to be voluntary as in no money spent on it.

 

I'd be happy to see taxes increased and more money be spent on schools and teachers, but this thread isn't about school budgets.

 

57 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

Oh I know you don't get it. But understand that your credibility on the matter, especially with me, is at an all time low. 

 

If I have to really explain to you the difference between a police officer and a teacher then I think the problem is between those ears of yours and not my two thumbs. But if it makes you feel justified in your horrible position that people are not giving you a fair shake or whatever you have determined is happening here than you can have it. 

 

Just don't expect me to stop calling you out on your bull****. 

 

Again, for record. I state a fact about guns. That you are safer without one than you are with one. That is statistically proven to be fact. And your retort is, what's the difference between teachers and cops. Fine. You play that game. Ima play my own lol

 

I'm not asking teachers to be cops.  I'm not asking teachers to pull over cars.  I'm not asking teachers to clear buildings to check for an active shooter.  I'm certainly not asking teachers to run into environments where there are active shooters.  I'm not asking teachers to do the things that people are upset that the Broward cops wouldn't do.

 

But the fact of the matter is despite all of that, teachers are finding themselves stuck in environment where they are being killed by shooters trying to kill lots of people.

 

Any argument that indicates that I don't understand the differences between cops and teachers is dishonest.  It is a straw man argument and a FRAUD of an argument.  That is the intellectually dishonest argument and bull****.

 

The fact of the mater is that you've never explained yourself and that's why you keep being painted into a box that don't you like.  If this is the level of discourse you are capable of, you are going to go through life without people getting "it".

Edited February 28, 2018 by PeterMP

[Kilmer17]

I am honestly completely dismayed and angry that the idea of arming teachers is something more than a cast off joke.

 

WTF is wrong with you.  I dont want my kids going to school in a militarized zone.  Stop trying to fix the symptoms of a problem and fix the ****ing problem.

[PeterMP]

4 minutes ago, Kilmer17 said:

I am honestly completely dismayed and angry that the idea of arming teachers is something more than a cast off joke.

 

WTF is wrong with you.  I dont want my kids going to school in a militarized zone.  Stop trying to fix the symptoms of a problem and fix the ****ing problem.

 

I've been contacting state legislators and national legislators for years.  I've been giving money to Sandy Hook Promise for years (since right after it started).  I've been reading the gun literature and posting on it here for years.

 

I live in a state that has some of the most restrictive gun laws in the country.

 

What would you suggest that I do?  How much do you think most of the people in this thread have done?  What have you done?

 

I don't want my kids killed because they got stuck in a class room with an active shooter and nobody had the means to protect them.

Edited February 28, 2018 by PeterMP