TheGoodBits Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/oakland/2015/10/06/cpl-holder-opens-fire-shoplifter-home-depot/73468588/ Concealed Carry superhero opens fire at a shoplifter at Home Depot. This makes me feel so very safe. Ah yes, just what is needed to combat petty theft. Bullets flying through the parking lot of your local Home Depot. If only more people carried guns so this happened more frequently. That would solve our problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/oakland/2015/10/06/cpl-holder-opens-fire-shoplifter-home-depot/73468588/ Concealed Carry superhero opens fire at a shoplifter at Home Depot. This makes me feel so very safe. Â Hah, wonder if they'll try to shoplift again. Â Can't imagine being shot at is worth whatever they got. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistertim Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 It is also completely different than a armed citizen using good judgement and training. Â Â I certainly agree if you are unsure ,then refrain. Â while you wait for the police (8 minutes that shooting) , or they wait until he runs out of bodies or ammo That's the issue...good judgement and the necessary training to act calmly and rationally in situations like that is very rare outside of special forces or some other military services. If someone has the training then great. But most people don't, which is why I don't really want them opening fire in a panic in a crowded area that's full of chaos. Rushing the shooter to take him down is completely different because you're only risking your own life, you aren't spraying bullets all over the place and likely hitting other innocent people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/oakland/2015/10/06/cpl-holder-opens-fire-shoplifter-home-depot/73468588/ Concealed Carry superhero opens fire at a shoplifter at Home Depot. This makes me feel so very safe. Â certainly seems excessive, what about the other one in that article? http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/macomb/2015/09/21/customer-shoot-bank-rob-warren/72582764/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 "..spraying bullets all over the place" Â The word choice used is interesting, and telling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistertim Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 Hah, wonder if they'll try to shoplift again. Â Can't imagine being shot at is worth whatever they got. I wonder if she'll be charged with a crime. That was insanely negligent use of a firearm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradeTheBeal! Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 certainly seems excessive, what about the other one in that article? http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/macomb/2015/09/21/customer-shoot-bank-rob-warren/72582764/ Fire enough bullets and you're bound to hit the bad guys at least some of the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 I wonder if she'll be charged with a crime. That was insanely negligent use of a firearm. Â I don't know those state laws. Â I know where I live you'd definitely be charged with a crime. You'd probably get quite a few charges... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGoodBits Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 (edited) certainly seems excessive, what about the other one in that article? http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/macomb/2015/09/21/customer-shoot-bank-rob-warren/72582764/ Foolish. The risk (innocent bystanders being killed) was not worth the reward (a few thousand dollars from a bank that makes millions, or an insurance company not having to pay the bank's claim). Edited October 7, 2015 by skinsfan_1215 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistertim Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 "..spraying bullets all over the place" Â The word choice used is interesting, and telling. That's what usually would happen in those situations. Someone is panicked, their adrenaline is through the roof, they're shaking, there is chaos, screaming, people running. Tell me how many shots you think would be on point in that situation from a person who isn't at the very least former military if not former special forces. You've shot before, so you know how even very small movements in a pistol can take your shot way off course. Imagine someone shaking and confused pulling the trigger over and over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 twa,  I know that SOP is to claim that the problem is "gun free zones". But in this case, it wasn't a gun free zone. There was a "good guy with a gun" there. (Whether it was allowed or not.) And it didn't stop the shooter. Arguing about whether said gun was allowed or not really doesn't change that fact.   He was not 'there'....he was quite a distance away in his own words.  my problem with gun free zones is you removing the ability to defend while not providing adequate security.  someone asked what if it was your kids in that class?.....I'd want mine armed with something more than their faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 That's what usually would happen in those situations. Someone is panicked, their adrenaline is through the roof, they're shaking, there is chaos, screaming, people running. Tell me how many shots you think would be on point in that situation from a person who isn't at the very least former military if not former special forces. You've shot before, so you know how even very small movements in a pistol can take your shot way off course. Imagine someone shaking and confused pulling the trigger over and over. Â I know enough to know that speculating about what I, or anyone else, would do in that situation is foolish. Â And yes, a pistol can be incredibly hard to be proficient with, especially at any distance, depending on the person. There are cops with training and years of practice that I would consider terrible at it, and I've also seen people pick up a gun for the first time and be pretty accurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 To bring this conversation back to reality, the fact of the matter is that studies show that states that have loosened their concealed permit laws have more violence and death and no real reduction in other crimes.  States that have strengthened their self defense laws (i.e. defend your castle laws) have the same issue.  And it is logical.  People that aren't highly trained for dealing with such situations aren't likely going to do any good.  More times than not they make physical and mental mistakes  that end up in more people being hurt.  I'm not opposed to concealed permit laws if there is some sort of requirement for regular and rigorous training.  And realistically, since at least historically there haven't been lots of people willing to get that training it is unlikely that there will ever be enough people with the training in the general public to make much of a difference. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 That's the issue...good judgement and the necessary training to act calmly and rationally in situations like that is very rare outside of special forces or some other military services. If someone has the training then great. But most people don't, which is why I don't really want them opening fire in a panic in a crowded area that's full of chaos. Rushing the shooter to take him down is completely different because you're only risking your own life, you aren't spraying bullets all over the place and likely hitting other innocent people.  I would also assert that another advantage that the cops have, compared to Joe Citizen, is that they have uniforms.  Granted, we're way off in the land of "what if?", here. But I'm imagining a situation. Guy with a gun shooting up folks in a school, or some place.  twa and I, both concealed weapons holders, decide, independently, to Ride to the Rescue.  What's the odds that either twa or I wind up shooting the other one?  I mean, I don't know he's a good guy. He's a guy with a gun, in a place where I've heard gunfire, sneaking from concealed firing position to position, with a gun in his hand. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 He was not 'there'....he was quite a distance away in his own words. Â This seemingly doesn't matter to many. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 "..spraying bullets all over the place"  The word choice used is interesting, and telling.  and accurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGoodBits Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 someone asked what if it was your kids in that class?.....I'd want mine armed with something more than their faith. Perhaps if the NRA had not engaged in unambetted arms proliferation over the past few decades, making these mass shootings a regular occurrence, then you wouldn't have as much need to fear for the safety of your children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 To bring this conversation back to reality, the fact of the matter is that studies show that states that have loosened their concealed permit laws have more violence and death and no real reduction in other crimes.  Then we should see lots of permits being revoked, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistertim Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 Then we should see lots of permits being revoked, right? Well, Peter did make another suggestion in the post you quoted some of: Â "I'm not opposed to concealed permit laws if there is some sort of requirement for regular and rigorous training." Â Maybe have specific and regular training requirements to keep it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 (edited) Well, Peter did make another suggestion in the post you quoted some of: Â "I'm not opposed to concealed permit laws if there is some sort of requirement for regular and rigorous training." Â Maybe have specific and regular training requirements to keep it? Â I think you're missing the point. Â If concealed permits lead to violence, then that means the people with the permits are part of the violence. Which means we should see permits being revoked, since I'm not aware of a permit that allows you to commit a crime with a gun and still keep your permit. Hell, as far as I know it doesn't even need to be a crime with a gun. Â You're not going to get any gripe from me when it comes to training. Other than regular and rigorous being ambiguous. Edited October 7, 2015 by tshile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popeman38 Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 (edited) twa,  I know that SOP is to claim that the problem is "gun free zones". But in this case, it wasn't a gun free zone. There was a "good guy with a gun" there. (Whether it was allowed or not.) And it didn't stop the shooter. Arguing about whether said gun was allowed or not really doesn't change that fact. So being on campus (in another building) is the same as being in the same room as the shooter? The vet states he would have used his firearm to protect those he was with. If the shooter had randomly chosen the room he was in, and the vet did nothing, your point would be accurate. Edited October 7, 2015 by Popeman38 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popeman38 Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 Perhaps if the NRA had not engaged in unambetted arms proliferation over the past few decades, making these mass shootings a regular occurrence, then you wouldn't have as much need to fear for the safety of your children. I'm sorry, did you just state as a fact that the NRAÂ caused these mass shootings to become a regular occurrence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 (edited) If concealed permits lead to violence, then that means the people with the permits are part of the violence. No, it doesn't, necessarily. Just to invent a hypothetical, say there's been a problem with people robbing little old ladies for their social security checks. We pass a law allowing little old ladies to concealed carry. The robbers respond by, instead of approaching granny and demanding the check, walking up behind her and hitting her over the head. (Cause she might be armed.) I'm sorry, did you just state as a fact that the NRAÂ caused these mass shootings to become a regular occurrence? Well, he did point out the correlation. So being on campus (in another building) is the same as being in the same room as the shooter? The vets states he would have used his firearm to protect those he was with. If the shooter had randomly chosen the room he was in, and the vet did nothing, your point would be accurate. I'm sorry. I forgot. The good guy with a gun only counts if he's in the same room. Edited October 7, 2015 by Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 Then we should see lots of permits being revoked, right? Â We've had several links now that contained stories about people with concealed weapons shooting and even killing innocent people by mistake. Â I'd hope those people would have had their permits revoked. Â In some cases, it is the police accidentally shooting a person that isn't a threat in a general threatening environment. Â I'm not sure sure what happens in those cases. Â But in either case, that seems like locking the barn door after the hose has escaped to me. Â It isn't hard. Â Handling guns in a manner that actually helps in chaotic and stressful situations is difficult. Â It isn't something the average person without training is going to do well. Â Yes, occasionally, they will get lucky, but that will at least be balanced by the cases where they don't get lucky. Â Encouraging such people to carry and use guns is going to result in more people shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 I'm sorry. I forgot. The good guy with a gun only counts if he's in the same room. Â So we can add you to the list of people advocating for people to want to be Rambo? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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