No Excuses Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 I don't see anything wrong with criticizing treatment of women or gays in Muslim countries. I don't think anyone is saying that shouldn't be done. It's when people exaggerate or make it sound like this is something exclusive that I have an issue. For instance, using India as some sort of paragon of virtue in the same post as complaining about treatment of women and gays elsewhere seems a bit...bizarre. I don't think treatment of homosexuality is a good way to judge Islam anyway, since much of Christian Africa feels similarly. I think it's ignorance that is the problem there, not religion. You keep making the point of equivalency and that if you criticize religion A, you must also acknowledge that religion B does this too. If you want to make a thread discussing the atrocities of Christianity, Hinduism and Judaism, please feel free to do so and I would gladly participate. I am not using India as a paragon of virtue. On the topic I was discussing, it's a fair and legitimate point to speculate why certain cultures turn towards large scale extremism and while others haven't. Just because I acknowledge that culture A got something right in its history, doesn't mean that I'm saying that culture A is then absolved of all of its own issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 You keep making the point of equivalency and that if you criticize religion A, you must also acknowledge that religion B does this too. If you want to make a thread discussing the atrocities of Christianity, Hinduism and Judaism, please feel free to do so and I would gladly participate. I am not using India as a paragon of virtue. On the topic I was discussing, it's a fair and legitimate point to speculate why certain cultures turn towards large scale extremism and while others haven't. Just because I acknowledge that culture A got something right in its history, doesn't mean that I'm saying that culture A is then absolved of all of its own issues. This isn't about Christianity or anything else. The point is if we're going to discuss Islam don't make it seem as if something is exclusive to them if it isn't. And if you're going to use India or other places as a contrast expect to get feedback. Although I am slighty confused as to what the thread is about. Are we criticizing Islam, or liberal hypocrisy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Excuses Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 This isn't about Christianity or anything else. The point is if we're going to discuss Islam don't make it seem as if something is exclusive to them if it isn't. And if you're going to use India or other places as a contrast expect to get feedback. Please feel free to point out where I've stated that issues plaguing Islam are exclusive to it and not any other religion. I would also love your feedback when I use India as a shining example on the treatment of women and homosexuals. Or if you would like to critique my actual point about India, in the context I stated it and not something you twisted it into. Until I do so, I would appreciate if my view points are not misrepresented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 Please feel free to point out where I've stated that issues plaguing Islam are exclusive to it and not any other religion. I would also love your feedback when I use India as a shining example on the treatment of women and homosexuals. Or if you would like to critique my actual point about India, in the context I stated it and not something you twisted it into. Until I do so, I would appreciate if my view points are not misrepresented. It's not about stating it, it's about implying it. If you represent something in a certain way it tends to come off that way whether you intended it to or not. I don't know about the particular point you were making about India and the warfare at that time (I know there has been a lot of concern over violence against and mistreatment of Muslims by India the past few decades), but it does seem weird when someone uses a country or a region or something in a positive way in one instance in the same post in contrast and then when criticizing Islam on another point leaves out that fact that the place mentioned earlier has similar laws, feelings, or behavior on the subject. I'm not trying to twist what you're saying, just pointing out where I have issues. I think you brought up some good points too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcsluggo Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 ..... 3. Lastly, US/Western foreign policy was essentially the same everywhere. We were supporting banana dictators and the like in the S. and C. America into the 1980s. Yet you don't see Christians flocking to Venezuela to fight to create an ideal Christian state, or Hindus or Buddhist to the relevant parts of the world. I'd suggest that there might actually be a reason for that. In Venezuela the hatred for that kind o'**** emerges as Chavezistas and a general downplaying of "the washington consensus". For whatever reasons (some valid, many invalid) both regions feel like they've been downtrodden by foreign aggressors (the USA), but Christian Venezuela doesn;t feel like its a holy war from the Christian USA, so it has to bubble up through a different outlet. most of teh blame on the USA from the populations of both regions comes from BS local politicians gleefully stoking it, looking for cheap and easy strawman/scapegoat outlets for the local rage that SHOULD be directed at teh local politicians for the abject failure at creating an environment that is capable of generating growth and bettering the lives of the local people.... however, US foreign policy has been pretty clumsy, and each and everytime we try to strong-arm change through either region it blows back up our ass the next couple of generations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcsluggo Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 Anybody see the top story on 60 Minutes last night? Western liberalsm is being used on itself... Radicals are playing them like a fiddle who is winning? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 In Venezuela the hatred for that kind o'**** emerges as Chavezistas and a general downplaying of "the washington consensus". For whatever reasons (some valid, many invalid) both regions feel like they've been downtrodden by foreign aggressors (the USA), but Christian Venezuela doesn;t feel like its a holy war from the Christian USA, so it has to bubble up through a different outlet. But in the ME, the biggest issue is actually Islams attacking other countries run by Muslims for not being the right Muslim. bin Laden's real objective was the over throw of the Saudi government. Attacking us was just a means to and end. ISIS hasn't even attacked us. Certainly a comparable situation would be Christians attacking some government in S/C America for not being the right kind of Christian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chipwhich Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 Wait. Liberals love Bill Maher? When did that happen? I missed it. Bill Maher is conservatives' favorite "liberal." They trot him out every time another one of the hundreds of well-employed right wing nut job media heads goes on a rant and they need to deflect. Gotcha, Fox News is to blame for Bill Maher. I get it. In the tailgate, if ya don't have an argument blame Fox News. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoony Posted November 4, 2014 Author Share Posted November 4, 2014 who is winning? Great Britain 14, Muslim Extremists 3. But it's still in the 2nd quarter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcsluggo Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 But in the ME, the biggest issue is actually Islams attacking other countries run by Muslims for not being the right Muslim. bin Laden's real objective was the over throw of the Saudi government. Attacking us was just a means to and end. ISIS hasn't even attacked us. Certainly a comparable situation would be Christians attacking some government in S/C America for not being the right kind of Christian. Hugo Chavez nevr attached teh USA either. IN fact he always made sure the oil flowed to Citgo/USA, and he basically always paid the bills to US interests, and he paid them FIRST. he ranted and raved about the USA... but he also knew which side of his bread was buttered. Same thing with ISIS (in a differet way). they want to control some oil field in Iraq and Syria. making videos where they piss on the USA is mostly a "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 Hugo Chavez nevr attached teh USA either. IN fact he always made sure the oil flowed to Citgo/USA, and he basically always paid the bills to US interests, and he paid them FIRST. he ranted and raved about the USA... but he also knew which side of his bread was buttered. Same thing with ISIS (in a differet way). they want to control some oil field in Iraq and Syria. making videos where they piss on the USA is mostly a "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" moment. Right, but there aren't flocks of Christians going to Venezuela (or Columbia if you'd prefer a country that you might consider an ally of ours in the region) because the government there is the wrong type of Christianity. There aren't attacks on Venezuela or Columbia from Christians from other S./C. American countries because they aren't the right kind of Christian. Our foreign policy has been equally bad (at least I'd argue) in the ME as in S./C. America in terms of things like supporting brutal dictators or under mining democracy when it hasn't suited us. The response of the population(s) though hasn't been at all similar so that suggest that it is more complex than US foreign policy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 Gotcha, Fox News is to blame for Bill Maher. I get it. In the tailgate, if ya don't have an argument blame Fox News. Not what I said. Nice try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zguy28 Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 Didn't feel like its own thread, but maybe this is a good place for this... Christian Couple Killed By Mob For 'Blasphemy' http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/christian-couple-killed-by-mob-for-blasphemy/ar-BBcZspE?ocid=iehp ...in Pakistan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riggo-toni Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 I remember liberals assailing then governor Giuliani for denouncing a lousy Madonna painting made from fecal matter being displayed at a public museum as vulgar anti-Catholic bashing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcsluggo Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 I remember liberals assailing then governor Giuliani for denouncing a lousy Madonna painting made from fecal matter being displayed at a public museum as vulgar anti-Catholic bashing. ah yes... the clear black and white lines that are generated when discussing fecal artwork. i actually think this DOES capture exactly the debate at the original core of this thread. People Like Maher get pissed off because squishy librrrrls will never talk in absolutes. If ISIS or Boka Harum commits some attrocity, Maher is happy to sum the situation by saying: "muslims suck" but liberals get all mealy mouthed and gnash their teeth about what could've caused people... people like you and me!... to do something like this. oye vey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABQCOWBOY Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 Great Britain 14, Muslim Extremists 3. But it's still in the 2nd quarter Red Zone Offense issues, sounds like. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-29947393 Malaysian court overturns cross-dressing ban Three Malaysian transgender women have won an appeal against a religious law banning Muslim men from wearing women's clothing. Appeals court Judge Mohamad Yunus said the "degrading, oppressive and inhumane" law discriminated against people with gender issues. Gender issues and homosexuality remain taboo areas in Malaysia. The appellants' lawyer said the ruling in the deeply conservative country would be "historic". "This will be a precedent. This court binds all other high courts," Aston Paiva was quoted as saying by AFP news agency. All Muslims in Malaysia are subject to Islamic laws, under a double-track legal system. Men dressing or acting as women is illegal under those laws, with offenders facing jail terms of up to three years. Some states also forbid women dressing as men. The appellants, all Muslims who were born male but identify as women, were arrested four years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 I remember liberals assailing then governor Giuliani for denouncing a lousy Madonna painting made from fecal matter being displayed at a public museum as vulgar anti-Catholic bashing. I don't think he just "denounced" anything. As I recall, Guliani tried to pull the funding for the entire Brooklyn Museum of the Arts. That's a little bit different, and caused a bit of a ruckus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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