WP: Is Robert Griffin III the Washington Redskins’ franchise quarterback? - by Liz Clarke

[RED06]

Yes, RG3 is a franchise QB. He will be the first player voted to the HoF while still playing... amazing how many people dismiss his unbelievable 2012 season. He will come back against Dallass and we will be 5 - 5 in four weeks. The way other teams are losing we could get a wild card at 10 - 6. With RG3 back I can see us going 8 - 1. Sand Fran ain't world beaters anymore, Dallass is a paper tiger and we have to beat the colts out of sheer principle. So that could leave us 7-6 with the last 3 games for the East.

We have to go 5 - 1 over the next 6 games - Boys, Vikes, Bucs, 9ers, Colts and Rams... its possible...

Hey Stefanskins I love the positive energy man. Hell slide over, I'll take that ride with you. I know we'll probably end up driving off a cliff, but at least we did it our way. LOL

[Stefanskins]

Hey Stefanskins I love the positive energy man. Hell slide over, I'll take that ride with you. I know we'll probably end up driving off a cliff, but at least we did it our way. LOL

lol In my old age I've come to realize that one of the beautiful things about life is you never know! Wanna make God laugh? Tell him what ur plans are... Let's do this Red Banzai!!!

[Pedro]

It's amazing how much rumor and dislike there is for Griffin.

 

A lot of dumb in the world.  Griffin is the one person in this organisation you absolutely keep.  Not surprised at the lack of patience from our FO/HC though.  They went pretty much all in in FA for a win now season, for some dumb ass reason.  Not a one of them seems able to look at players and a roster and evaluate worth a damn.

[RED06]

lol In my old age I've come to realize that one of the beautiful things about life is you never know! Wanna make God laugh? Tell him what ur plans are... Let's do this Red Banzai!!!

Hey Stefan I'm with you all the way. Whatever the outcome is man, I'm down. LOL

[darrelgreenie]

Neither here nor there but the Colts hired Lucks college OC 2 years ago and Luck has been playing his best football since.

It makes too much sense that it would never happen here.

[RED06]

Neither here nor there but the Colts hired Lucks college OC 2 years ago and Luck has been playing his best football since.

It makes too much sense that it would never happen here.

Yeah you're right Darrelgreenie they did. I honestly thought the Redskins would at least get Art Briles to be a offensive consultant and incoporate some of his play designs at the very least. But oh well, wishful thinking I guess.

[Skinsinparadise]

Neither here nor there but the Colts hired Lucks college OC 2 years ago and Luck has been playing his best football since.

It makes too much sense that it would never happen here.

 

Beyond that the Colts have arguably been much better at building a roster.  Shanny came here and signed old Fas in year #1 and immediately started mortgaging the future, trading picks, etc.   Then complained later that things don't happen overnight and it takes 5 years to rebuild a roster.  The Colts overhauled their roster big time in 1 year, drafted well and became competitive right away.  Its' not easy but its doable if you have the right FO.  Heck now even the Colts' defense is pretty good. 

 

As for whether Jay-Allen has the ability to rebuild this roster quick, remains to be seen.  At least they didn't deal away draft picks in year 1.   One carry over between the two regimes unfortunately seems to be their lack of ability to evaluate OL talent.

[wrecker]

 

 

Luck, Russell Wilson, Kap, Cam Newton all are in the same offense they started their careers with.  RG3 is in his 2nd offense in 3years. I will leave it there.

 

This is why we will never have a franchise QB. It has been the Redskins way for 2 decades.

How many systems did JC go through while he was here?....3....4? How about Patrick Ramsey?

 

Not saying that either would have been Payton Manning but both could have been decent QBs if they would have developed with the same offensive system IMO.

[Stefanskins]

This is why we will never have a franchise QB. It has been the Redskins way for 2 decades.

How many systems did JC go through while he was here?....3....4? How about Patrick Ramsey?

 

Not saying that either would have been Payton Manning but both could have been decent QBs if they would have developed with the same offensive system IMO.

lol I liked Ramsey so much I named my pup after him. Ramsey Riggins Brown!

[Stefanskins]

I'm all about being thrifty.. but there are a few things in life that you go ahead and spend the xtra money... dentures, q-tips and oline men!

[Momma There Goes That Man]

Yes, RG3 is a franchise QB. He will be the first player voted to the HoF while still playing... amazing how many people dismiss his unbelievable 2012 season. He will come back against Dallass and we will be 5 - 5 in four weeks. The way other teams are losing we could get a wild card at 10 - 6. With RG3 back I can see us going 8 - 1. Sand Fran ain't world beaters anymore, Dallass is a paper tiger and we have to beat the colts out of sheer principle. So that could leave us 7-6 with the last 3 games for the East.

We have to go 5 - 1 over the next 6 games - Boys, Vikes, Bucs, 9ers, Colts and Rams... its possible...

 

Good God man and you are considering betting on football games?     

[Taco Bell]

Taco Bell,

I wanted to only respond to your post after I read the whole thing.  It was a bit long for me to quote the whole thing, but nevertheless I'm responding.

While I do understand and agree with some of your opinions about RG3, I do wonder why most RG3 doubters fail to acknowledge that after 2012, all playing grounds for RG3 wasn't the same as his rookie season.

***ie no offseason, total rehabbing of his knee, crazy coaches, media drama EVERY week (some of which RG3 was responsible for) yet, he still completed 60% of his passes while obviously not healthy. **

 

Thanks for the response,  I appreciate it.

 

I think falling in line with the rest of my thinking, and I am completely aware that it's my own fault for not saying it (I try to put everything in there that I "think" I'm saying but stuff obviously falls short) is that when I say he needs to make "complex reads consistently" I am putting some nuance in there, but it's not overtly stated, so that's my fault.  

 

I know RG3 when it pertains to "reading defenses" isn't at the Jamarcus Russell or Mark Sanchez level of inept.  And I'm sure you don't think I'm saying that either, but I am talking about a reasonable point on the spectrum.  When I talk about his need to read defenses I am talking about reaching the level "relative" to how effective he was from a YPA and/or TD/INT ratio perspective from his 2012 season.  Meaning, he needs to learn how to read a defense consistently so he can become equally as potent as he clearly was in a new way without having to rely on the whole RO/legs thing.  This in turn would make him fall in line with the "upper tier" QBs in the league, because his overall output his rookie year wasn't all that far off from the type of efficiency (not quite the volume of course given he accounted for ~27 tds) that players like Aaron Rodgers, Manning, or Brady show year in and year out, which is why he was a fringe MVP candidate that year.  See, that's why there's this big chasm now when discussing RG3 for how he can "get back,"  because it's almost like, we've seen tremendous output by the guy, but because of certain factors, like injuries, the offense he runs, the franchise itself, etc. he can't do it "how" he did it in 2012, but it's like we "know" he can.  

 

See, when it comes to "reading a defense" one of those little bits that always impressed me when he was still undrafted through his rookie offseason, were all those little specials people did on espn or NFL network and he was truly impressive in his classroom X and O knowledge and quickness.  Like, I know he's not completely lost, and I know he has the eye for learning more and more, I think it's more about the combination of processing "better" plays, ones that a Rodgers or a Brady can do, with a quicker internal clock that I'm sure he isn't as used to yet, because he's always had the threat of running to slow down a pass rush in any capacity, whether college or pro. 

 

 Also, I think in the NFL nowadays, there is probably SO much nuance with a Peyton Manning, Brees, or Rodgers that it's probably like learning a language trying to get on page with one of these guys.  I can only imagine how specific some of the orders are from these QBs, in a good way.  I think there are QBs that, when they have good O line protection, the game is on "easy mode" for them because they are really just dictating whatever they want, especially with scoring going way up this year especially.  I mean, look at Flacco against the bucs two weeks ago, or Manning every day, or even Tony Romo this year.  I mean, they make QBing look easy because they know what they are doing and can just do it in their QB friendly environment.  So what I am getting at with this part is, I'm not sure when we get to this level of QB play, if an Aaron Rodgers starts telling his WR's step for step what he wants them to do, is part of what made him so great, or if it's his "credentials" that allowed him to be trusted by his WRs to make them do exactly what he wants them to do.  

 

Like, "fake running this way, plant your foot there,  if the linebacker bites, run that route, if the safety bites, run that route, if both happen, run this.  I'll throw the ball to your left side waist so make sure you turn, because I know this corner can't knock the ball away from there" I can only imagine the level of detail.  Meaning, does RG3 do this kind of stuff yet? I really don't know, but what I do know is, the top QBs have that level of authority in their passing games, and I'm sure that equates to results in wins, stats, etc.  I'm not knocking him for that either, that's more just me thinking outloud when it comes to what we want to see in long term development for RG3 and/or what would help him along the way.  It's not all that unfair either, it's probably the same reason why Jay Cutler middles in that "above average" category instead of leaping into the elite category, I can't imagine him taking his game to absolute peak levels, he seems satisfied with where he is.

 

I honestly think this Kirk Cousins thing worked out the "best" for the team.  At the expense of a mid round draft pick for trading cousins down the line (since his trade value is gone, again), I think we are finally in the environment we should have had all along, a team 100% without a QB controversy that RG3 can develop in.  It's one of Shanahan's final poison pills running it's system.  And, I've never said to get rid of RG3 before the end of his player option season, 2 and a half years away, only if Cousins went x-2 or 1 in his starts which would have indicated some great QB play and wins over really tough teams, all the while making RG3 a great value to trade and boost the O-line or something.  It only took the giants game for me to completely back off that thought, so I was conjecturing about a very fantasyland concept for a period of about 10 days between the Jaguars and Giants games.  I am against drafting a new "franchise" QB in the next 2 drafts under all circumstances save for RG3 getting to ryan leaf levels, which is obviously like a 1% chance given what we know about him.   

 

Finally, when we are talking about the fairness or lack thereof in comparison to Luck or Wilson etc, I think that's more just because, just like the 2004 draft or 83 draft, it seems like "good" qbs get drafted in bunches, so it's hard to separate, but also because of that rookie season in particular where all 3 of those guys played so well and all had good arguments for rookie of the year, so they were sort of bound together through that bond from a results perspective right from the start.  I mean, I was arguing for RG3 over Luck and Wilson myself at the time, so in a lot of ways, it's more like I feel the need to own up to my own past opinions as well, even if it's a mistake to do so at this point.  

 

RG3 had all sorts of nonsense going against him in 2013, and you are definitely right that performing as well as he did under those circumstances was no small feat as well.  I guess combining the quality of 2012, with the hardship of 2013, was what led me and/or others to sort of "assume" a leap this year despite the new system and coaching staff.  But, the ravens preseason game and the Texans game are a long time ago already so it's very possible when he comes back he will have made some tremendous strides in his game.  I also would not be surprised if he went through another brief rust period.  I could see anything happening, but obviously, I am rooting for him like anyone else should be.

 

Yea I dunno, I feel like I am reasonable,  but I know some of my posts get pretty intense and unexciting to read, I just hope that my desire for clear and specific points come through at the expense of having to read (and type lol) more.  I think the best praise I've received through some of these responses is that my posts "aren't like others" pertaining to this topic because at the very least, that's exactly what I'm trying to do, even if there are disagreements in the points.  I want to hit all the angles at once to show that it's a well rounded thought as opposed to just saying one thing, then responding with another, and so on,  the whole "moving the goalposts" thing.  

[RED06]

This is why we will never have a franchise QB. It has been the Redskins way for 2 decades.

How many systems did JC go through while he was here?....3....4? How about Patrick Ramsey?

 

Not saying that either would have been Payton Manning but both could have been decent QBs if they would have developed with the same offensive system IMO.

Agreed wrecker. We need to stick with something for a change and give it time. Time to build, time to develope, time for everything. We need to get out of this next shinny toy every 2-3yrs. It doesn't help ANYONE........the team, coach, QB or the fans.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

People here act like Griffin's rookie year shows that he's meant to be an elite QB as if one year wonders don't happen, even for rookies. And again one year wonders happen.

 

You keep saying "one year wonders happen, even for rookies". Can you name any one-year wonder at QB who played as efficiently and effectively their rookie season as Griffin did in 2012, or anywhere close to it? Because this seems like the type of statement people say because it sounds correct, without actually looking into the facts that would back it up.

 

The fact is, only four rookie QBs had as anywhere as good a rookie season as RG3 did...none of them were one-year wonders:

 

Griffin

Wilson

Marino

Roethlisberger

 

That's it.

 

The other three are indeed franchise QBs and all have been to the Super Bowl.

 

If you expand it to a QB's first two seasons, the only QBs who have ever had a season close to Griffin's that could say ended up as scrubs would be Dante Culpepper and Josh Freeman.

 

Since it is THAT rare to have a rookie campaign like Griffin did, it seems absolutely asinine to write the guy off less than 2 years later, like too many on this site seem to be doing. It's one thing to say his injuries are concerning, it's another thing entirely to diminish his rookie season as overrated, an abberration, or diminish it by claiming it's been done before by QBs who turned out to be scrubs so don't put importance on it.

 

I remember reading where a Cowboys fan was claiming that Griffin's debut against the Saints wasn't anything to get excited about, and said "Even Ryan Leaf looked good in his first few games"...again, one of those things that people think sounds good without actually checking the facts to see if the statement is correct (Leaf was mediocre at best in his first 2 games).

 

Worst still are those out there who chalk up Griffin's rookie season as being the result of throwing "nothing but screens and checkdowns" and playing in a "gimmick offense". Don't you wish it was that easy to make a mediocre QB play out of this world, by just having him throw a lot of short passes and coming up with a "gimmick"? Would have been done numerous times over the last 80+ years of the NFL's existence.

[wrecker]

Agreed wrecker. We need to stick with something for a change and give it time. Time to build, time to develope, time for everything. We need to get out of this next shinny toy every 2-3yrs. It doesn't help ANYONE........the team, coach, QB or the fans.

Yeah if we are going to suck year after year, I would rather it be with the same system/coaches than the continuing coaching carousel.

Except for maybe Haslet.  

Snyder should stick with the coach and keep firing GMs and scouts until you find ones that can build a winning roster.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Yeah if we are going to suck year after year, I would rather it be with the same system/coaches than the continuing coaching carousel.

Except for maybe Haslet.  

Snyder should stick with the coach and keep firing GMs and scouts until you find ones that can build a winning roster.

 

Since the GM is responsible for hiring the coach (or supposed to be), I'm not sure that plan will work lol...

[ToHailWithIt]

Thanks for the response,  I appreciate it.

 

I think falling in line with the rest of my thinking, and I am completely aware that it's my own fault for not saying it (I try to put everything in there that I "think" I'm saying but stuff obviously falls short) is that when I say he needs to make "complex reads consistently" I am putting some nuance in there, but it's not overtly stated, so that's my fault.  

 

I know RG3 when it pertains to "reading defenses" isn't at the Jamarcus Russell or Mark Sanchez level of inept.  And I'm sure you don't think I'm saying that either, but I am talking about a reasonable point on the spectrum.  When I talk about his need to read defenses I am talking about reaching the level "relative" to how effective he was from a YPA and/or TD/INT ratio perspective from his 2012 season.  Meaning, he needs to learn how to read a defense consistently so he can become equally as potent as he clearly was in a new way without having to rely on the whole RO/legs thing.  This in turn would make him fall in line with the "upper tier" QBs in the league, because his overall output his rookie year wasn't all that far off from the type of efficiency (not quite the volume of course given he accounted for ~27 tds) that players like Aaron Rodgers, Manning, or Brady show year in and year out, which is why he was a fringe MVP candidate that year.  See, that's why there's this big chasm now when discussing RG3 for how he can "get back,"  because it's almost like, we've seen tremendous output by the guy, but because of certain factors, like injuries, the offense he runs, the franchise itself, etc. he can't do it "how" he did it in 2012, but it's like we "know" he can.  

 

See, when it comes to "reading a defense" one of those little bits that always impressed me when he was still undrafted through his rookie offseason, were all those little specials people did on espn or NFL network and he was truly impressive in his classroom X and O knowledge and quickness.  Like, I know he's not completely lost, and I know he has the eye for learning more and more, I think it's more about the combination of processing "better" plays, ones that a Rodgers or a Brady can do, with a quicker internal clock that I'm sure he isn't as used to yet, because he's always had the threat of running to slow down a pass rush in any capacity, whether college or pro. 

 

 Also, I think in the NFL nowadays, there is probably SO much nuance with a Peyton Manning, Brees, or Rodgers that it's probably like learning a language trying to get on page with one of these guys.  I can only imagine how specific some of the orders are from these QBs, in a good way.  I think there are QBs that, when they have good O line protection, the game is on "easy mode" for them because they are really just dictating whatever they want, especially with scoring going way up this year especially.  I mean, look at Flacco against the bucs two weeks ago, or Manning every day, or even Tony romoSUCKS this year.  I mean, they make QBing look easy because they know what they are doing and can just do it in their QB friendly environment.  So what I am getting at with this part is, I'm not sure when we get to this level of QB play, if an Aaron Rodgers starts telling his WR's step for step what he wants them to do, is part of what made him so great, or if it's his "credentials" that allowed him to be trusted by his WRs to make them do exactly what he wants them to do.  

 

Like, "fake running this way, plant your foot there,  if the linebacker bites, run that route, if the safety bites, run that route, if both happen, run this.  I'll throw the ball to your left side waist so make sure you turn, because I know this corner can't knock the ball away from there" I can only imagine the level of detail.  Meaning, does RG3 do this kind of stuff yet? I really don't know, but what I do know is, the top QBs have that level of authority in their passing games, and I'm sure that equates to results in wins, stats, etc.  I'm not knocking him for that either, that's more just me thinking outloud when it comes to what we want to see in long term development for RG3 and/or what would help him along the way.  It's not all that unfair either, it's probably the same reason why Jay Cutler middles in that "above average" category instead of leaping into the elite category, I can't imagine him taking his game to absolute peak levels, he seems satisfied with where he is.

 

I honestly think this Kirk Cousins thing worked out the "best" for the team.  At the expense of a mid round draft pick for trading cousins down the line (since his trade value is gone, again), I think we are finally in the environment we should have had all along, a team 100% without a QB controversy that RG3 can develop in.  It's one of Shanahan's final poison pills running it's system.  And, I've never said to get rid of RG3 before the end of his player option season, 2 and a half years away, only if Cousins went x-2 or 1 in his starts which would have indicated some great QB play and wins over really tough teams, all the while making RG3 a great value to trade and boost the O-line or something.  It only took the giants game for me to completely back off that thought, so I was conjecturing about a very fantasyland concept for a period of about 10 days between the Jaguars and Giants games.  I am against drafting a new "franchise" QB in the next 2 drafts under all circumstances save for RG3 getting to ryan leaf levels, which is obviously like a 1% chance given what we know about him.   

 

Finally, when we are talking about the fairness or lack thereof in comparison to Luck or Wilson etc, I think that's more just because, just like the 2004 draft or 83 draft, it seems like "good" qbs get drafted in bunches, so it's hard to separate, but also because of that rookie season in particular where all 3 of those guys played so well and all had good arguments for rookie of the year, so they were sort of bound together through that bond from a results perspective right from the start.  I mean, I was arguing for RG3 over Luck and Wilson myself at the time, so in a lot of ways, it's more like I feel the need to own up to my own past opinions as well, even if it's a mistake to do so at this point.  

 

RG3 had all sorts of nonsense going against him in 2013, and you are definitely right that performing as well as he did under those circumstances was no small feat as well.  I guess combining the quality of 2012, with the hardship of 2013, was what led me and/or others to sort of "assume" a leap this year despite the new system and coaching staff.  But, the ravens preseason game and the Texans game are a long time ago already so it's very possible when he comes back he will have made some tremendous strides in his game.  I also would not be surprised if he went through another brief rust period.  I could see anything happening, but obviously, I am rooting for him like anyone else should be.

 

Yea I dunno, I feel like I am reasonable,  but I know some of my posts get pretty intense and unexciting to read, I just hope that my desire for clear and specific points come through at the expense of having to read (and type lol) more.  I think the best praise I've received through some of these responses is that my posts "aren't like others" pertaining to this topic because at the very least, that's exactly what I'm trying to do, even if there are disagreements in the points.  I want to hit all the angles at once to show that it's a well rounded thought as opposed to just saying one thing, then responding with another, and so on,  the whole "moving the goalposts" thing.  

 

Wow lots of good stuff in there. Excuse me for not having the attention span before work to respond to each aspect. The part I'd like to comment on is RG3 progress in reading defenses versus Luck/Wilson in that same timespan. First of all I don't think that he reads the field any differently than Wilson at this point. Wilson is a GREAT player but he's hardly out there reading the whole field. He is, at this point, the league's best scrambler at the Quarterback position. He has was romoSUCKS used to have with lots more athleticism and I think it's pretty safe to say the vast majority of his production occurs outside the pocket.

 

Now Luck...well...he's just really good AND REALLY reckless. He's pretty much had Peyton Manning's rookie season his whole career. I drool over his game winning drive moxy BUT as a QB we all overrate him a bit because he does every the WAY we like it done. As far as Griff is concerned I have always felt that as MAGICAL as 2012 was it really did regress his field reading skills. Remember he didn't actually run the read option at Baylor. He ran the spread, similar but not quite the same. The shanny's only asked him to read a half of the field at any time. I think he realized 1) his skills were eroding and 2) the offense was gimmicky and couldn't be sustained long-term. 

 

I think it's plausible that he went to his hero (Shanahan) and voiced his concerns about the effect the playing style would have on his development long term and learned his hero was not his hero. His hero was a winner in the Malcolm X mold (by any means necessary). Welcome to the league rook. From every report I've ever heard Griff is as smart as a steel trap. He will pick up the skills necessary to survey the field and the confidence to trust that amazing arm to fit tough throws into small windows. We just need to draft lineman. 

[Stefanskins]

Good God man and you are considering betting on football games?   

lol... I know... i know

[wrecker]

Since the GM is responsible for hiring the coach (or supposed to be), I'm not sure that plan will work lol...

Yeah hard to decide between chickens and eggs.

[MrSilverMaC]

Neither here nor there but the Colts hired Lucks college OC 2 years ago and Luck has been playing his best football since.

It makes too much sense that it would never happen here.

No, it doesn't make sense.

Luck played in a pro offense at Stanford. Meaning the offense should translate fairly well to the pros or at the very least the basic things being asked of him should translate well allowing them to tweak what needed to be tweaked to get it to work. That's part of why he was considered the better prospect.

Griffin did not. Your idea would basically stunt any growth he's had by moving him back to a college 1 read system if we were to bring in his old oc.

[NomadicSkinFan]

I'm all about being thrifty.. but there are a few things in life that you go ahead and spend the xtra money... dentures, q-tips and oline men!

 

 

Holy crap... I read that as online men?  I became confused about where the thread was heading...  Time for glasses or another coffee I think.

[Jandre002]

Holy crap... I read that as online men?  I became confused about where the thread was heading...  Time for glasses or another coffee I think.

 

This made me LOL.

[darrelgreenie]

Skins-

To be fair the Colts roster was the most media overly de-valued roster ever.

After being in the playoffs for a decade they had one bad year when they let 3rd string QBs play the entire season.

Other then that they were never worse then an 8 win team for a long time.

[Stefanskins]

This made me LOL.

ahahahaha

[skinsmania123]

Isn't every NFL player an injury waiting to happen?

Yes.  But he has had one major one in the pros, and this while not major, was significant because he lost so much time.  And of course he had the ACL issue in Baylor which he came back from.  So let's just say yes, "every NFL player is an injury waiting to happen" yet there are many players that are franchise QB's who have never experienced even one of these injuries, let alone the totality of RG3's.  It is just a fact you can't avoid.

 

And I think what Gruden is saying is correct.  Look at Luck and look at Griffin.  It is about progression at this stage and we are 3 years in.  Luck is ensconced now as a franchise guy because of his consistency and progression and so is Wilson in Seattle.  Luck is unbelievable who makes so much out of mediocrity.  We all know RG3 is not where he needs to be.   And of course how long do you wait.  The good news is there are so many issues on this team, offensive line, defensive secondary and special teams, it is really okay for this year.  But he needs these 7 games so everyone can see if he can stay healthy AND produce.  And he has to play the way he was drafted to play.  

 

I would love to see RG3 be who we drafted him to be. Not a recreation.  Not a project.  Yes he IS athletic but he can't just make an across the body throw with arms and legs going every which way, catch a cleat in the turf and blow out an ankle.   That is just not going to cut it in the NFL.  That is a freaky thing but unfortunately that may be him.    

 

So time will tell.