DC Ban on carrying handguns struck down

[Burgold]

.1%...meaning point one. Not one percent, not ten percent...point one.

 

Sounds pretty rare to me.

 

My odds of getting in a fatal car accident are probably better. ( No I have no looked up the numbers )

Deja vu time.

 

So, what you are saying is we should stop all research for cures or treatments for Parkinson's, ALS, and a host of other diseases that effect a fraction of one percent of the nation.  Additionally, we should make deaths which occur from drunk driving not a crime since there are even less of those than gun deaths.

[Commander PK]

When did this become about conservatives?

 

inevitably the conversation always seems to go there, because that is what we do in America 2014. Lump everybody into the group of our choosing, and assume that what is true of a person in one area must be true in another.

Deja vu time.

 

So, what you are saying is we should stop all research for cures or treatments for Parkinson's, ALS, and a host of other diseases that effect a fraction of one percent of the nation.  Additionally, we should make deaths which occur from drunk driving not a crime since there are even less of those than gun deaths.

 

Perhaps the issue is less about the guns themselves and more about poverty and mental illness?

[Burgold]

Perhaps the issue is less about the guns themselves and more about poverty and mental illness?

It's all of the above.  Guns fed into a culture that struggles with poverty, mental illness, as well as difficulties in basic socializing, parenting, and a whole host of other problems are a spicy recipe.

 

However, if there are constants... they shouldn't be ignored.  Guns have been a constant.  There are more gun deaths than deaths by stabbing.  There are more gun deaths than death by drunken driver. That the trend is going downwards is a good thing.  Should we be satisfied that about 40,000 lives are taken each year by guns or that more than triple that number are shot?

[Popeman38]

It's all of the above.  Guns fed into a culture that struggles with poverty, mental illness, as well as difficulties in basic socializing, parenting, and a whole host of other problems are a spicy recipe.

 

However, if there are constants... they shouldn't be ignored.  Guns have been a constant.  There are more gun deaths than deaths by stabbing.  There are more gun deaths than death by drunken driver. That the trend is going downwards is a good thing.  Should we be satisfied that about 40,000 lives are taken each year by guns or that more than triple that number are shot?

32,000 including suicides. First we rounded up to 35,000, now we are rounding up to 40,000? Come on...

[Commander PK]

Burgold, honest questions.  What realistic gun restrictions and legal hoops do you feel there is no question will curb or eliminate gun violence?  

 

What new gun control legislation will directly save the lives of many of those 40,000 people?  Doesn't even have to be all of them, or even a large percentage of them.

 

Should we sacrifice our rights for a proverbial "shot in the dark" that MAYBE these things actually make a tangible difference?  Where is evidence to show that they have made a difference.  

 

I come back to the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban.  WIndow dressing, and since it has expired nothing has changed.  

[Burgold]

32,000 including suicides. First we rounded up to 35,000, now we are rounding up to 40,000? Come on...

That's fair, but mind you at the same time when we talk guns people only talk about deaths.  How many are victims of gun violence who survive.  The best numbers I could fine (and I posted them a page or two back) seem to be about 140,000 a year in addition to the 30 k that we limit ourselves to when we talk about gun violence.

[Commander PK]

has locking up thousands of weed smokers curbed marijuana use?

 

did prohibition get people to stop drinking?

[Burgold]

Burgold, honest questions.  What realistic gun restrictions and legal hoops do you feel there is no question will curb or eliminate gun violence?  

Realistic gun restrictions in this climate?  None.  This country is too divided and more importantly, all the money or most of it is on the gun side.  More, the liberal side is way too scared to act.

[Commander PK]

More, the liberal side is way too scared to act.

 

If they weren't, and you were in a leadership position with the ability to effect change...what gun restrictions and legal hoops would you advocate that you think would curb or eliminate gun violence?

 

Would criminalizing ownership of specific types of guns help curb the problem?  

[Burgold]

If they weren't, and you were in a leadership position with the ability to effect change...what gun restrictions and legal hoops would you advocate that you think would curb or eliminate gun violence?

 

Would criminalizing ownership of specific types of guns help curb the problem?  

Banning guns isn't really the root I'd want to go.  I'd be more for mandatory safety classes.  Better communication of medical, mental, and criminal history, more funding to enforcement so that the laws on the books might actually be paid attention to.  I really like the idea behind the smart gun technology and I'd love to push that... so that only you or someone you program has the ability to fire your gun.  Things of that sort. I also like the idea of registration.

 

Banning guns is a utopian sort of deal.  It'd be wonderful if you could do it in a meaningful way, but the fact is that prohibitions don't work well enough because people are dumb, evil, untrustworthy, or crazy.

[Popeman38]

Banning guns is a utopian sort of deal. It'd be wonderful if you could do it in a meaningful way, but the fact is that prohibitions don't work well enough because people are dumb, evil, untrustworthy, or crazy.

So utopia shreds the 2nd Amendment?

And because people are dumb, evil, untrustworthy, and crazy, AND governments are made up of people, is the exact reason a 2nd Amendment is necessary. Imagine a world where only the people in charge had guns...

[Burgold]

So utopia shreds the 2nd Amendment?

And because people are dumb, evil, untrustworthy, and crazy, AND governments are made up of people, is the exact reason a 2nd Amendment is necessary. Imagine a world where only the people in charge had guns...

Absolutely, would you need a gun if you were living in the Garden of Eden where all God's creatures co-existed in perfect harmony?

 

The second part we agree on.

[mistertim]

OK, sorry for the rant. I edited my post to remove my overreaction. 

No worries. We're good.  

[Slateman]

Deja vu time.

So, what you are saying is we should stop all research for cures or treatments for Parkinson's, ALS, and a host of other diseases that effect a fraction of one percent of the nation. Additionally, we should make deaths which occur from drunk driving not a crime since there are even less of those than gun deaths.

Do you think they should devote the energy to treating the symptoms of Parkinson's, ALS, and other diseases or should they treat the cause? You're comparing getting a disease (random genetics and chance that cannot currently be stopped or prevented) to a willful act by a human being.

[Burgold]

I absolutely think both. When you have a disease that you have no cure for sometimes the only thing can do is treat the symptoms. As someone who watched his grandmother fall to a degenerative disease I am extremely grateful they treated her symptoms especially her pain.

[Corcaigh]

Absolutely, would you need a gun if you were living in the Garden of Eden where all God's creatures co-existed in perfect harmony?

 

 

There are many reasons why someone might choose to own a gun, but self defense isn't the most compelling. It significantly increases risk to family members in most cases.

 

Some statistics:

 

"Guns in the home are 22 times more likely to be involved in accidental shootings, homicides, or suicide attempts. For every one time a gun in the home was used in a self-defense or legally justifiable shooting, there were 4 unintentional shootings, 7 criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides."

 

For kids ages 5 to 14, the mortality rate is 14 times higher in high gun ownership states than low gun ownership states. For infants and toddlers, ages 0 to 4, the mortality rate is 17 times higher in high gun ownership states than low gun ownership states.

 

Thirty-three percent of U.S. households contain a gun, and half of gun-owning households don't lock up their guns, including 40 percent of households with kids under age 18.

 

The majority of people killed in firearm accidents are under age 24, and most of these young people are being shot by someone else, usually someone their own age. The shooter is typically a friend or family member, often an older brother.

[Commander PK]

Banning guns isn't really the root I'd want to go.  I'd be more for mandatory safety classes.  Better communication of medical, mental, and criminal history, more funding to enforcement so that the laws on the books might actually be paid attention to.  I really like the idea behind the smart gun technology and I'd love to push that... so that only you or someone you program has the ability to fire your gun.  Things of that sort. I also like the idea of registration.

 

Banning guns is a utopian sort of deal.  It'd be wonderful if you could do it in a meaningful way, but the fact is that prohibitions don't work well enough because people are dumb, evil, untrustworthy, or crazy.

 

Well, take the Connecticut shooter for instance.  If you have a mentally ill person living in your home...should your right to own a gun be restricted?

 

I'm not in total disagreement with you.  I have no problem with background checks really.  I don't have a problem with people who are diagnosed and being treated for mental illness not having access to weapons.  However, I do have a problem with slippery slopes.  I do have a problem with politicizing this debate.  I do have a problem with people using their position of authority to press their opinions of how things should be on people.  

[Burgold]

It turns out that Conn. Mom should not have owned guns. Is the answer restricting possession for caretakers of the mentally ill? That's a hard position to support, but would reasonable precautions like gun safes and safety locks be? Seems like it would have saved both her life and those of many innocent children.

[Slateman]

I absolutely think both. When you have a disease that you have no cure for sometimes the only thing can do is treat the symptoms. As someone who watched his grandmother fall to a degenerative disease I am extremely grateful they treated her symptoms especially her pain.

Modern medicine would disagree with you. Greatly. It's one of the reasons that cancer is treated with poison that usually makes the patient feel worse.

[Burgold]

Really depends on the disease. Chemo is a mixed story. For some, it has prolonged his life for years or decades.

[Popeman38]

There are many common sense gun control that can be passed if both sides are willing to compromise.

[Commander PK]

There are many common sense gun control that can be passed if both sides are willing to compromise.

 

the problem is people are unwilling to meet at a place of intellectual honesty.  Criminals will not cease to be criminals, and there are numerous examples where trying to prohibit or restrict just makes the situation worse.  Where there is a demand there will be a way.  Our society has developed the way it has developed.  Now people can change, sure, but it would take more than just a few new pieces of paper to make a significant impact. 

 

Education, gun safety classes, comprehensive back ground checks are fine...but if you pass all that.  No reason you should not be able to own an AR-15 for whatever reason that you choose.  Which could simply be...you sleep better at night.  

 

but at the same time, I can't get past the fact that none of the guns that come in through the border are subject to these laws and restrictions.  Domestic terrorists will still get their weapon of choice.  The same way they get everything else they aren't supposed to have.

[PeterMP]

The fact of the matters is that there are studies that show that states did/have passed laws that likely have reduced gun violence.

 

I've cited them here in the past.

 

I forget which state, but they had a law that said if you are going to buy a gun you have to be "approved" by local law enforcement.

 

The state repealed the law, and gun violence went up in a predictable manner.

 

And there are other examples of similar things happening.

 

And I think you can make a reasonable argument why such a law would actually slow/prevent gun violence as compared to something like the Brady Bill, which doesn't seem to have affected gun violence.

 

Yes, there will still be illegal guns and criminals that have them, but there are reasonable common sense things that seem like they would be effective and based on the studies that have been done are effective.

 

Yes in some cases somebody might be denied a gun that really shouldn't be, but I don't accept, believe, or have seen evidence to suggest that we can't enact some laws that would have a net positive affect on decreasing gun violence.

[wysknz1]

It is more difficult than ever to buy and carry a gun here in Texas.

It's more difficult to get a drivers license in Wyoming than to buy a gun or vote. Which you don't need a drivers license to do either.

[Commander PK]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybell/2013/05/14/disarming-realities-as-gun-sales-soar-gun-crimes-plummet/

 

 

According to DOJ’s Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. gun-related homicides dropped 39 percent over the course of 18 years, from 18,253 during 1993, to 11,101 in 2011. During the same period, non-fatal firearm crimes decreased even more, a whopping 69 percent. The majority of those declines in both categories occurred during the first 10 years of that time frame. Firearm homicides declined from 1993 to 1999, rose through 2006, and then declined again through 2011. Non-fatal firearm violence declined from 1993 through 2004, then fluctuated in the mid-to-late 2000s.

And where did the bad people who did the shooting get most of their guns? Were those gun show “loopholes” responsible? Nope. According to surveys DOJ conducted of state prison inmates during 2004 (the most recent year of data available), only two percent who owned a gun at the time of their offense bought it at either a gun show or flea market. About 10 percent said they purchased their gun from a retail shop or pawnshop, 37 percent obtained it from family or friends, and another 40 percent obtained it from an illegal source.

While firearm violence accounted for about 70 percent of all homicides between 1993 and 2011, guns were used in less than 10 percent of all non-fatal violent crimes. Between 70 percent and 80 percent of those firearm homicides involved a handgun, and 90 percent of non-fatal firearm victimizations were committed with a handgun. Males, blacks, and persons aged 18-24 had the highest firearm homicide rates.