The House that Bruce Built

[Voice_of_Reason]

I don't think the RG3 trade was all Shanni induced. The owner applied 'must win now' pressure after two flat seasons in 2010-2011. The haul just wasn't rational for a real football man to have executed it.

Theres no way D. Jax would be here today if we had a real GM. That signing just reeked of classic Snyder.

So what you're saying is that any time the skins go after any prominent player, it's Dan's doing?

The Jackson signing made a lot if sense. Cap friendly contract, game breaking WR.

And if Shanahan was feeing some pressure to win in year 3, what the hell is wrong with that?

[drowland]

They can step in on Haslett now. Wade is up in the stands at our games, he should have been hired over the summer. While he has a bad head coaching record, when he is in charge of the defense he gets results. Much better results than Haslett.

 

His postseason record (1-5) is bad.  But his regular season record (82-61) ain't too shabby.  Still way better DC then HC.  

[Thinking Skins]

They can step in on Haslett now. Wade is up in the stands at our games, he should have been hired over the summer. While he has a bad head coaching record, when he is in charge of the defense he gets results. Much better results than Haslett.

The only thing about Wade that worries me is that at the guy's last two stops the coach has been fired and he's taken over. That may not be the most affirming thing for a rookie head coach, that the DC won't support you when the **** hits the fan and suddenly he's vying for your job.

[Puma Kane]

The only thing about Wade that worries me is that at the guy's last two stops the coach has been fired and he's taken over. That may not be the most affirming thing for a rookie head coach, that the DC won't support you when the **** hits the fan and suddenly he's vying for your job.

Same thing could be said about Haslett. Young coaches would be better served with other coaches who have a clue.

 

Wade is a coordinator with better results than Haslett could ever imagine.

[drowland]

The only thing about Wade that worries me is that at the guy's last two stops the coach has been fired and he's taken over. That may not be the most affirming thing for a rookie head coach, that the DC won't support you when the **** hits the fan and suddenly he's vying for your job.

 

It's happened 4 times with Wade.  He took over for his dad in NO.  He replaced Dan Reeves twice (Denver and Atlanta) and then took over for Kubiak last year in Houston. 

 

I wouldn't say Wade didn't support his HC.  He's known to be very loyal to his coaching staffs.  It's what got him fired in Buffalo.  Plus look at the relationships he had with the guys he replaced.  His dad, his good friend Dan Reeves and Kubiak who he had a relationship with from Denver.  When management wants to make a change, there's not much the asst coaches can do about it other then move on with it. 

 

Edit:  He also replaced Levy in Buffalo, but Levy retired on his own terms. 

Edited October 3, 2014 by drowland

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

yeah i was gonna say, pretty sure bruce allen was hired in December and then Mike Shanahan got hired after the final game.

 

Snyder was talking to Shanahan during the season when he knew he was whacking Zorn. (Hell, there's an article that describes how Snyder used to talk to people around the league about Shanahan in front of Zorn). Shanahan let it be known that he was not going to work with Cerrato but would work with Bruce Allen. So, Snyder whacks Vinny and names Bruce GM. Bruce is the one who formally fires Zorn and formally conducts the team interviews (which were all a show because they knew who they wanted). Shanahan is hired and immediately takes control of all football operations, meaning he was Bruce Allen's boss.

 

Is the argument really that Bruce Allen hired Mike Shanahan to be his boss? Because that's dumb.

[Voice_of_Reason]

Snyder was talking to Shanahan during the season when he knew he was whacking Zorn. (Hell, there's an article that describes how Snyder used to talk to people around the league about Shanahan in front of Zorn). Shanahan let it be known that he was not going to work with Cerrato but would work with Bruce Allen. So, Snyder whacks Vinny and names Bruce GM. Bruce is the one who formally fires Zorn and formally conducts the team interviews (which were all a show because they knew who they wanted). Shanahan is hired and immediately takes control of all football operations, meaning he was Bruce Allen's boss.

 

Is the argument really that Bruce Allen hired Mike Shanahan to be his boss? Because that's dumb.

I think every word of this is accurate based on what I know.

 

The end of the story is that Shanahan potentially ruins the franchise by not taking Griffin out of the playoff game in Seattle.  Which, and I haven't heard anybody say this publicly, but I'm going to extrapolate for a second, causes Dan Synder to have a conniption. Have you ever seen somebody have a conniption?  Believe me, you don't want to see it.** (If somebody can name that obscure quote, I'll buy them a cookie.)

 

Snyder, after seeing a talent like he's never had before in DC, one capable of winning games AND generating revenue, is distraught.  He's furious. 

 

But he let's 2013 play out, which goes horribly south, and has his mind made up that Shanahan has to go.

 

So he promotes Bruce to President, fires Mike, and turns the keys over to Bruce.

 

He did this once before.  When Gibbs retired, he handed the keys to Vinny. (Well, kindof.  Dan was very involved.  

 

The question really is, does Bruce have full authority, or is Dan whispering in his ear?  My belief is that Dan trusts Bruce, and has given him the right to do whatever he wants.  Because a lot of the moves they've made just LOOK like Bruce moves and exactly the opposite of what we would have expected from Dan.  Hiring Gruden, keeping Haslett and Raheem Morris, keeping a lot of the players, etc.Not going after big name solutions to problems early in free agency... Those are all controlled decisions that are not what we've seen when Dan was really involved.

 

So, I think that after Shanahan was fired, Dan gave Bruce the keys.  I hope he doesn't wrap the car around a tree.  But I gotta say, it looks a little bit like it's at least heading towards a tree at the moment.  

[Cooleyfan1993]

Snyder was talking to Shanahan during the season when he knew he was whacking Zorn. (Hell, there's an article that describes how Snyder used to talk to people around the league about Shanahan in front of Zorn). Shanahan let it be known that he was not going to work with Cerrato but would work with Bruce Allen. So, Snyder whacks Vinny and names Bruce GM. Bruce is the one who formally fires Zorn and formally conducts the team interviews (which were all a show because they knew who they wanted). Shanahan is hired and immediately takes control of all football operations, meaning he was Bruce Allen's boss.

Is the argument really that Bruce Allen hired Mike Shanahan to be his boss? Because that's dumb.

I thought people were arguing that mike hired Bruce. Which is silly too cause mike was hired after Bruce Allen

[Voice_of_Reason]

It's happened 4 times with Wade.  He took over for his dad in NO.  He replaced Dan Reeves twice (Denver and Atlanta) and then took over for Kubiak last year in Houston. 

 

I wouldn't say Wade didn't support his HC.  He's known to be very loyal to his coaching staffs.  It's what got him fired in Buffalo.  Plus look at the relationships he had with the guys he replaced.  His dad, his good friend Dan Reeves and Kubiak who he had a relationship with from Denver.  When management wants to make a change, there's not much the asst coaches can do about it other then move on with it. 

 

Edit:  He also replaced Levy in Buffalo, but Levy retired on his own terms. 

Who was the DC that turned the Interim HC job down in DC when Dan fired Norv? Was it Ray Rhodes? If I remember correctly, Ray was the DC, and Dan asked him to be HC, and Ray essentially told him, "no way." Which is how they ended up with Terry Robisky....

I thought people were arguing that mike hired Bruce. Which is silly too cause mike was hired after Bruce Allen

Mike essentially hired Bruce, because he told Snyder that's who he wanted to work with as a GM.  That was in like November 2009.  But at the time Mike told Dan that, Zorn and Vinny were still around.  

 

So Dan had to whack Vinny first and get Bruce in there, then after the season, Dan hired Mike, which is the guy he wanted all along.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

As I have said, I don't think Snyder is staring at a white board filled with names making up a roster. He's not Jerry Jones who knows enough about football to be really really dangerous. I doubt Dan can name all the lineman on his own roster let alone know who is entering free agency. I don't think he has EVER been involved in football ops to that degree - with the possible exception of 2000 when he was young, dumb, and full of....stuff.

 

What I think happens with Allen (and previously with Vinny) is that they know what Dan likes. There are certain moves that just scream "Oh, Snyder, wanted that one." He likes names. And he really seems to like names from within the division. I'm not saying that Synder made the call on Jackson, but if you showed me a text from Dan to Allen saying "Did you see?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!" eight seconds after Philly released him, I would not be the least bit surprised.

I thought people were arguing that mike hired Bruce. Which is silly too cause mike was hired after Bruce Allen

 

I was arguing that Mike hired Bruce. Which may be the wrong verb if you want absolute precision. But Allen was hired because Shanahan wanted him in place before he came on board.

 

Here's the thing: Shanahan hired himself. From what I've read Snyder had been fascinated with Shanahan for years and more or less had an open invitiation to him that said "The job is yours whenever you want it." So it was more of a courtship than a hiring process.

 

I fired Vinny . . . . . is that good enough?

I hired Bruce . . . . . . how's that?

Of course, Kyle can coach here? What a silly thing to ask, you rascal, you.....

New chef? It's funny but I was just thinking that we needed a new chef.

I just signed the final check for the practice bubble today........

[chipwhich]

Mike essentially hired Bruce, because he told Snyder that's who he wanted to work with as a GM.  That was in like November 2009.  But at the time Mike told Dan that, Zorn and Vinny were still around.  

 

So Dan had to whack Vinny first and get Bruce in there, then after the season, Dan hired Mike, which is the guy he wanted all along.

 

Mike did not request Bruce Allen, sorry.

[Voice_of_Reason]

 

Mike did not request Bruce Allen, sorry.

 

There are 1000 stories out there that say he did.  

young, dumb, and full of....stuff.

 

Good Point Break reference. 

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

 

Mike did not request Bruce Allen, sorry.

 

 

He definitely wanted Vinny gone and Allen met his approval. If Shanahan had said no on Allen, Allen would not be here.

 

I know some stories came out after Shanahan was fired that said that Allen was never completely sold on Shanahan but that read like complete damage control. Allen never had a say in whether Shanahan came here or not. He was in place as a lure.

Edited October 3, 2014 by Lombardi's_kid_brother

[chipwhich]

There are 1000 stories out there that say he did.  

Good Point Break reference. 

 

No, there is not.

[drowland]

Who was the DC that turned the Interim HC job down in DC when Dan fired Norv? Was it Ray Rhodes? If I remember correctly, Ray was the DC, and Dan asked him to be HC, and Ray essentially told him, "no way." Which is how they ended up with Terry Robisky....

 

They offered it to Ray Rhodes who turned it down.  IIRC Dan was going to give the job to his good buddy Pepper Rodgers but there was backlash from the coaching staff (I think Robiskie spoke out) so Dan gave to Terry. 

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

You don't remember this incredible article?

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/redskins/washington-redskins-how-daniel-snyder-found-his-man-in-mike-shanahan/2011/09/07/gIQA1D0oIK_story.html

 

A drunken Dan Snyder gasses up the jet and flys to Denver to court Mike Shanahan?

 

While watching NBC’s “Sunday Night Football” game between the Arizona Cardinals and Indianapolis Colts, the four men drank glasses of Sassicaia, a bold Tuscan red that is a Snyder favorite, those who were present said. They added that Snyder eventually graduated to Crown Royal.

 

Finally, Snyder turned to the others. “Let’s go get Mike Shanahan,” he said.

 

It would be more than three months before Snyder hired Shanahan, who on Sunday begins his second season as Redskins head coach. But interviews with 11 individuals in and around the franchise, each of whom spoke on condition of anonymity so as to speak more freely, reveal that his pursuit of the former Denver Broncos head coach began far earlier than even the night of Sept. 27, 2009, after the deflating loss to Detroit.

 

While Snyder’s lengthy courtship of Shanahan has been known, many of the details of his pursuit have not. It paralleled the last year of Zorn’s tumultuous two-season tenure as Redskins coach, a fact that led Snyder and his advisers to go to elaborate lengths to keep it from becoming public so as not to appear to both undermine Zorn nor scuttle their efforts to land Shanahan. Snyder declined through a spokesman to be interviewed for this story.

 

Within minutes of Snyder’s request at the airport hangar, calls began flying back and forth between representatives of the Redskins owner and Shanahan. About two hours later, Shanahan had agreed to meet with the Redskins’ brain trust — but when?

 

“Let’s not wait for him to change his mind,” Snyder said, those who were present recalled. “Let’s go now.”

 

Snyder’s confidantes still marvel at the impulsive decision, yet they say it encapsulated the way in which they often did business.

[chipwhich]

Yeah, Vinny and Shanny were tight.  They were courting Shanny.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Yeah, Vinny and Shanny were tight.  They were courting Shanny.

 

Your argument is that Shanny and Vinny were tight, and Snyder was courting Shanahan for over a year. So a month before the end of the season, Snyder fires Vinny?

 

Why would he do that? The entire point of Snyder's existence then was hiring Shanahan. Why would he fire his friend?

[skins/psu1981]

The minute he uttered, "Maroon, black, and yellow" I knew we were in trouble. That combined with Cerrato basically admitting that nobody else would take the job so he promoted a newly-hired coordinator to HC? Come on now.

 

That was the freakiest hire in football history... until we found another coach calling Bingo on weekends.

Sad thing was Zorn had the same winning percentage as the "Great" Mike Shanahan.

[RandyHolt]

I don't think the RG3 trade was all Shanni induced. The owner applied 'must win now' pressure after two flat seasons in 2010-2011. The haul just wasn't rational for a real football man to have executed it.

Theres no way D. Jax would be here today if we had a real GM. That signing just reeked of classic Snyder.

 

If Dan did intervene and pressured Mike to go after RG3, it's because Mike was an idiot, and didn't even draft a single QB before RG3.

 

This, into the 3rd year of a rebuild.

 

How long do you want Dan to sit idly by, watching the clowns Mike was trying at QB? If you were a "hands off" owner, how many years into a rebuild would it take you getting those hands dirty, and start pushing for a QB to be drafted? 

 

Mike goes from not even drafting a single QB to try to develop in late rounds, to using 4 picks to draft 1 QB. There was no middle ground. And then burns a 4th on Cousins right afterwards. Mike's moves did not make sense to me. Maybe there was some spite in there.

 

IMHO its foolish to not draft a single QB ~40% of the way into a 5 year plan. I stand with Dan on this one.

Edited October 3, 2014 by RandyHolt

[chipwhich]

Your argument is that Shanny and Vinny were tight, and Snyder was courting Shanahan for over a year. So a month before the end of the season, Snyder fires Vinny?

 

Why would he do that? The entire point of Snyder's existence then was hiring Shanahan. Why would he fire his friend?

 

I am just stating the facts.  The articles are out there discussing it.  Once Dan fired Vinny and hired Bruce some thought that led to the end of Shanny chase.  There is no evidence that Shanny told Dan to fire Vinny and hire Bruce Allen.  There is plenty of evidence that Dan needed to fire Vinny and Bruce Allen had ties and could improve fan relations.

[TheLongshot]

 

I am just stating the facts.  The articles are out there discussing it.  Once Dan fired Vinny and hired Bruce some thought that led to the end of Shanny chase.  There is no evidence that Shanny told Dan to fire Vinny and hire Bruce Allen.  There is plenty of evidence that Dan needed to fire Vinny and Bruce Allen had ties and could improve fan relations.

 

People forget that Dan and Bruce met at the Senior Bowl and talked.  There were some rumors at the time that Bruce was going to join the organization in some manner at the time, but nothing came of it.

 

I think no matter what, Vinny was going to be gone.  Too much damage was done by that point.  Personally, I'm not sold that Dan really wanted to give Vinny the job in the first place.  I mean, if he was going to get it, you think it would have been years ago.  I think the only reason why Vinny got the job was because Gibbs recommended him for the position.

 

I don't think the hiring of Bruce had much to do with Shanahan, other than Shanahan wouldn't work with Vinny.  I think Bruce's ties with the organization's past (through his father) is a big reason why he was hired, as well as agreeing to the power structure.

[Taco Bell]

I agree with bits and pieces of most of these posts since it seems like pretty much all of you know what you are talking about... While, out of all the realistic candidates Gruden was my favorite choice anyway, I think as time goes on we can see how hiring Gruden, on a basic level, did not contribute to any sort of "culture change" that a lot of teams with quick turnarounds seem to have.

 

That doesn't mean he's a failure, it just means we are missing a "positive sign" that a common thread of recent "good hires," such as Chip, Jim Harbaugh, Chuck Pagano, Mike McCoy, or Bruce Arians all seemed to instill with an instant culture change based on the previous regime.  Culture change encapsulates a bunch of things, including wins, so not all these situations are the same, but all of these happened early in their tenure. As of week 4, Gruden has the worst record of these hires at their week 4 juncture, as well as staring 1-5 in the face.  

 

I'm not here to discuss those guys in particular, and also, there are examples in recent history, of a team building slowly, with their current coach.  Ron Rivera is one of those examples of having 2 bad seasons before a good one.   Despite being a little older, John Harbaugh started "slow" in that he was 2-3 through his first 5, but they went on to go 11-5 that year.  They also had the dolphins, raiders, browns, and texans after that start.

 

This is really just about Bruce Allen, and Dan Snyder as well, and how it ties to a lack of a true culture change based on the overlying feeling that it's just business as usual in washington.

 

While Bruce is far and away more competent than Cerrato ever was, I think Bruce still gets the benefit of nepotism both in actual blood as well as being what I assume to be a "pro redskins guy" for life. This isn't about going into the name change debate, but I guarantee that Snyder would rather have a guy at the head of the organization who is with him about football in every aspect and is willing to say whatever Snyder wants/needs him to, than otherwise.  Snyder seems like the type of guy who would rather have someone who's "with him" on things as opposed to getting the 100% best option if the "with him" option is a 95% best option.  I mean, look at Vinny, he was like a 60%.  I don't think that Bruce Allen is the 100% best option as the "president of a team" for the redskins.  Like many of these good "suit" jokes, he fits quite the perfect mold as the head of this team, lol.  He did fit in to our organization perfectly of course by being a competent GM as well as his father being one of our former great coaches. 

 

But, this will probably lead to Snyder riding out Bruce until either our team has another trainwreck season or worse as a result.  It's going to be real tough to fire the son of a former redskins great when it happens.  This feeling of nepotism at the top then has trickled down into every other hire on our team it seems, since like many said, whether some of these hires were legitimate or not,  almost all of them have some sort of questionable aspect to them, where they all seem to be more about benefiting at least 1 or more of the people above them to a certain extent.  And remember, like everything in the NFL, I'm not questioning these guys' X and O capabilities, but in the NFL you are dealing with 95% vs 98% vs 100% abilities, so it's all small margins of error (I know you all know this, except for Vinny), I know these people aren't garbage, but they have signs of nepotism within.

 

McVay obviously helps Gruden, since Gruden gets more comfort in calling the offense how he wants without too much backlash, since a OC in his late 20s is not going to cause a stir since he's got a cushy job already.  I sometimes wonder if Grudes just likes to put a lipper in and call some plays. Lol...

 

Haslett survives because Gruden is unwilling to fire him based on the reciprocation of a past "debt" he owes. We all know Haz stated his case about being handcuffed prior, so this one of course reeks in all sorts of ways anyway.

 

Gruden is the brother of Jon, who obviously had ties to both the raiders and the bucs.

 

So, I think it's tough no matter how you slice it... So many connections and conveniences in there.

 

So, all this is really getting to is the chicken or the egg discussion.  I feel like most of these previous coaches actually had an answer for this riddle, because I feel like most of these coaches probably instilled a new feeling from day 1 in the spring which led to quick turnarounds with actual results to back them up (good records early)... Gruden, I dunno, not that he is Zorn from a skills standpoint because I think Gruden is actually more on the forefront of X and O design in the current NFL fraternity than Shanny or Zorn was at their times of hiring, but I don't think he has that same "voice" that you seem to hear from other current successful coaches.  

 

Keeping Haslett was the biggest mistake of all the coaching changes or lack thereof, and I think its one of the primary factors that leads our team to not have that feeling of a regime change, since there is way too much continuity from the previous regime, having a terrible pass and overall big play defense, so there's not really any magical feeling going on.  All we had this season so far was a QB controversy which got our tick meters to rise a bit, but other than that, this just seems like a rough season going forward. Obviously, our ST, while not legendarily bad, has already contributed poorly in our games, except for the punter, I guess. 

 

What it leaves us is to just hope that the Offense somehow outdoes the Shanny era offense, and we are having major problems in that area too, early.  I know there are circumstances as to "why," but all I'm saying is, I don't feel a bit of "culture change" in this current regime yet. And while it's not necessary, it seems to be a side effect of all good recent coaching hires, so I feel like it's a bad indicator.

 

But, my point is, ultimately, just in overall agreement with many of you that Bruce doesn't seem to be the right fit for this team anymore.  People don't actually get tricked into seeing a "descendant of a franchise great"  in 2014 and actually think it means something if the results aren't there.  It's too easy to read through that stuff now because in any form of media there will be people that can comment on it and you can learn from, bla bla bla.  

 

Our organizational flaws run deeper than other teams so the best thing we can hope for is a superstar GM that can handle the tightrope of uplifting a franchise as well as appeasing the owner, but in the right way.  I think we've seen enough of bruce to know that he's not "the guy" at this point, based on record, drafts, etc. 

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

 

I don't think the hiring of Bruce had much to do with Shanahan, other than Shanahan wouldn't work with Vinny.  I think Bruce's ties with the organization's past (through his father) is a big reason why he was hired, as well as agreeing to the power structure.

 

I've never argued that Shanahan said "Without Bruce Allen, I'm staying home."

 

What I am saying is Shanahan said "If Vinny stays, I stay home." And Snyder got confirmation that Allen was okay with Shanahan before hiring him. There were probably any number of GMs that Shanahan was willing to work with. Allen was one and had a relationship with Snyder and the team so the math worked.

 

The fact is, Snyder wanted Shanahan for years and drunkenly flew to his house on a whim once.

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]