Huffpost: This Is Why Poor People's Bad Decisions Make Perfect Sense

[Springfield]

Saw this on Facebook and gave it a read. Thought it was good enough to share here. I'd like to think it will shed light on the arguments about how easy poor people have it in this country. I doubt it will though.

There's no way to structure this coherently. They are random observations that might help explain the mental processes. But often, I think that we look at the academic problems of poverty and have no idea of the why. We know the what and the how, and we can see systemic problems, but it's rare to have a poor person actually explain it on their own behalf. So this is me doing that, sort of.

Rest is a luxury for the rich. I get up at 6AM, go to school (I have a full course load, but I only have to go to two in-person classes) then work, then I get the kids, then I pick up my husband, then I have half an hour to change and go to Job 2. I get home from that at around 12:30AM, then I have the rest of my classes and work to tend to. I'm in bed by 3. This isn't every day, I have two days off a week from each of my obligations. I use that time to clean the house and soothe Mr. Martini and see the kids for longer than an hour and catch up on schoolwork. Those nights I'm in bed by midnight, but if I go to bed too early I won't be able to stay up the other nights because I'll **** my pattern up, and I drive an hour home from Job 2 so I can't afford to be sleepy. I never get a day off from work unless I am fairly sick. It doesn't leave you much room to think about what you are doing, only to attend to the next thing and the next. Planning isn't in the mix.

When I got pregnant the first time, I was living in a weekly motel. I had a minifridge with no freezer and a microwave. I was on WIC. I ate peanut butter from the jar and frozen burritos because they were 12/$2. Had I had a stove, I couldn't have made beef burritos that cheaply. And I needed the meat, I was pregnant. I might not have had any prenatal care, but I am intelligent enough to eat protein and iron whilst knocked up.

More at the link...

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/4326233

[Taylor703]

Now maybe I'm crazy but if you're already in a situation where you can't afford most things, why wouldn't you take precautions to keep yourself from getting pregnant?

[AsburySkinsFan]

Now maybe I'm crazy but if you're already in a situation where you can't afford most things, why wouldn't you take precautions to keep yourself from getting pregnant?

Because sometimes even when you take precautions $%#¥ happens....I've got a smart ass and insulting comment to insert here but I'm gonna skip it. I love how you have chosen to dismiss the whole thing because she's pregnant.

[twa]

Now maybe I'm crazy but if you're already in a situation where you can't afford most things, why wouldn't you take precautions to keep yourself from getting pregnant?

many times they have kids to add something meaningful to their lives and precautions take money and time

 

she does have some good points and it is hard to break the cycle.....much easier not to

[PokerPacker]

Now maybe I'm crazy but if you're already in a situation where you can't afford most things, why wouldn't you take precautions to keep yourself from getting pregnant?

If you listen to anyone **** about the economy for long enough, just let them talk, cuz you'll eventually hear why it's exactly their fault. And not just Wall Street people, just dumb ****s at a lunch counter in Flint, Michigan. "I'm just a simple man, with a simple wife and four simple children, and I just want an honest day's work. Y'know, Obama's exporting all or jobs overseas, now I can't even find work." You sad mother****er– Hang on a second! Did you just say you had four children?! Wait, wait, you have four children? In Flint, Michigan?....Do you know how much it costs to raise a kid? The average cost to raise a single child to the age of seventeen is now $227,000. Almost a quarter of a million dollars! You have four of the ****in' things! In Flint, Michigan!.... Next time you hear some sad sack on 60 Minutes ****ing about how he got ****ed over by the economy, instead of children imagine he said quarter of a million dollar toys, ****in' boats and... "Yeah when they started laying off people in the late '80s I made it through the first round of cuts. I said, 'Baby, I don't know what's gonna happen in the future, so let's get a quarter of a million dollar Lamborghini.' And then I got the pink slip, got a six-month severance package, so I said, 'Okay, baby, we're really on shaky ground now, we'd better get a beach house and a speed boat.' And now I can't even find work because of Obamanomics. My wife's pregnant with a quarter of a million dollar who-knows-what-it's-gonna-be. I'm a victim." No, you're a gambling addict! You made a million dollar wager, and ya lost! You made a million dollar wager, on spec, with no money in the bank to back it up, and now the mob is comin' to take your thumbs!

[Taylor703]

Because sometimes even when you take precautions $%#¥ happens....I've got a smart ass and insulting comment to insert here but I'm gonna skip it. I love how you have chosen to dismiss the whole thing because she's pregnant.

It wasn't meant to be an insult to her and I knew it would be taken that way. I admire how hard she works, seems like a very tough lady and if she wants children she should be more than welcome too however she was already in a very tough situation to begin with, it just seems like adding children to that would make it much worse. And no, I didn't dismiss the whole thing, I just think adding children to the equation is a bad idea. It was my opinion, I never asked anyone to agree with it nor like it.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Anyone who equates a child to a boat is a moron.

[PokerPacker]

Anyone who equates a child to a boat is a moron.

Yeah, at least you can sell a boat to get some of that back when you can't afford it.

[AsburySkinsFan]

It wasn't meant to be an insult to her and I knew it would be taken that way. I admire how hard she works, seems like a very tough lady and if she wants children she should be more than welcome too however she was already in a very tough situation to begin with, it just seems like adding children to that would make it much worse. And no, I didn't dismiss the whole thing, I just think adding children to the equation is a bad idea. It was my opinion, I never asked anyone to agree with it nor like it.

That's fine, but your first post didn't mention anything other than the fact that she was pregnant and you wondered why...maybe she was taking precautions. If you don't want it to sound insulting and dismissive then you should probably point to some of the merits in the article.

Yeah, at least you can sell a boat to get some of that back when you can't afford it.

Hell, just give your child up for adoption when the economy goes in the tank. Shoot you could always unofficially sell your child off, by accepting money to sign over the guardianship, after all this is the new way kids are being passed around now a days in order to bipass the adoption process.

[twa]

Do ya'll believe we are destined to repeat mistakes,or that it is just easier to do so? (and no I'm not talking simply pregnancy)

 

Life is certainly not easy,but we can certainly make it harder by taking the way the makes "sense"

[Springfield]

Do ya'll believe we are destined to repeat mistakes,or that it is just easier to do so? (and no I'm not talking simply pregnancy)

Life is certainly not easy,but we can certainly make it harder by taking the way the makes "sense"

I think that, in a general sense, wealth breeds wealth and poverty breeds poverty. It is difficult to change one's socioeconomic status more than a little each generation. For instance, I am slightly better off than my parents were at my age but not by much.

I do agree with much of what you've said this far though.

Also, from the article, as she relates to having kids:

The closest Planned Parenthood to me is three hours. That's a lot of money in gas. Lots of women can't afford that, and even if you live near one you probably don't want to be seen coming in and out in a lot of areas. We're aware that we are not "having kids," we're "breeding." We have kids for much the same reasons that I imagine rich people do. Urge to propagate and all. Nobody likes poor people procreating, but they judge abortion even harder.

[Special K]

Over half the things this author is talking about can be addressed by services offered by the local DHHS and public health department...which she does not mention...once.  

 

Additionally, I'm pretty sure there is no Medicaid copay, anywhere, for family planning services.  I'm sorry (ok, no I'm not), but complaining about a minimal office copay when you are spending that money on cigarettes is very frustrating to hear and to deal with on a constant basis -- I'm saying this as someone who works  with this demographic in public health on a daily basis.  By the way, smoking cessation counseling and cessation-related resources are ALSO services offered by most public health departments throughout the country.  For free.  Many also offer drug and alcohol abuse (issues that exacerbate the clinical depression that is referred to multiple times in the article) counseling and assistance resources.  For free.

 

The bottom line: the whole issue can be explained by the short-term mindset ingrained in this demographic.  That said, I'm not exactly sure how to address this underlying problem.  I deal with it with people here in the US and I've dealt with it with people I worked with in the developing world:  they can't envision life past tomorrow so little regard is given to any type of long term planning.  Personally, I give more of a pass to those in developing countries because most are busy building shelter and harvesting food to survive the next day, week, or rainy season.  Poor people in America don't really have that excuse; they're just continually stuck in an ignorant (I don't say that as an insult, I say that as a factual description of their awareness about the resources they could take advantage of to make life more manageable) short-term mindset and act on impulses and desires that provide immediate or near-immediate gratification.  Other than offering resources to this population, I have no idea how to breach this mindset and it's definitely one of the most, if not the most, frustrating aspects of working with those in poverty.

 

EDIT:  While I take issue with several aspects of this author's opinion piece, I will credit her for making the observation that depression is a common illness in the low socioeconomic population.  

 

At the moment I don't have the data to cite here to back up this opinion of mine, but I strongly believe mental health issues are highly prevalent throughout this demographic, especially with the homeless.  Because of this, I really, really, REALLY wish there were abundant and FREE mental health resources those in the low socioeconomic class could easily access.  I don't think this will ever happen in light of the current state (and a bleak future outlook) of public health funding in this country; but dangit if I wish federal and state officials would put a priority on, and funding toward, increasing public access to mental health services.

[Kosher Ham]

You want the best for our children... right ? Don't we all ?

 

Give them the best chance.

 

Having children under certain situations...that's ignorant and irresponsible.

 

If you can not provide, than you should not be a parent///it's really that simple.

 

You can get by, but they need more. And if you are in this situation, you most likely can not provide for yourself and a significant other.

[Elessar78]

As I've mentioned before, my wife and I deal with "poor" or low-income bracket folk on regular/semi-regular basis because of her work and/or outreach and the author touches on a very central reason ("why") the poor are in the state they are in.

 

It sucks to be poor (duh) and they allow themselves the little luxuries to just get to the next hour or next day. 

 

I don't want to seem like I'm picking on poor folk, but that's exactly the mindset that needs to be changed (which is easier said than done). But you do have to suffer a bit more to gain traction and get over that hump. The poverty in this country is what is termed "relative poverty" you're only poor in relation to others, as opposed to "absolute poverty" that you see in Haiti or Chad ("Bro, do you even poor?"). 

 

Then the poor get caught in a vicious cycle—they overpay for things like rent and groceries and don't leverage their advantages (like WIC/Foodstamps) into creating a foot hold. BUT they probably could, except they don't possess a middle-class mindset. POVERTY tends to be generational. Lots of inertia and ingrained behaviors and beliefs that cannot be changed via public scolding. Most middle class people are the way they are because of their parents behavior and beliefs. Upward mobility is a rarity. Anyway, they overpay and are forced to get second jobs, which builds stress, which makes them desperate and seek out those little indulgences. Or they get second jobs because they chose a poor mate and are actually doing good by working to provide for their family.

 

But then they make poor choices about employment. In the article, the author says she has to drive an hour to her second job. That can be a pretty common thing and they never really "DTM" (do the math). Current job pays $10 but Job A is paying $12 (but it's an hour away). They don't have the math skills to realize that the commute is killing their raise—they see a bigger number on their paycheck and think they've gotten ahead. Then the confounding issue comes up when they realize their losing a ton of money on gas—so they blame the car their driving and sign for a 7 year loan for a more fuel efficient car. Vicious cycle. 

 

Instant gratification is the enemy. Consider one middle class approach to not having enough money—they try to find free stuff to do. Poor people tend to not do that, since they feel that that's what poor people do and they don't want to identify as that.

 

One state did a study on it's means tested welfare recipients. To qualify for aid, you had to report assets/income. When they went to check on the declarations via in-home visits they found that recipients OVER reported assets like TVs, cars, computers (they didn't actually have this), but failed to mention that their home had a dirt floor or a leaky roof or no running water. 

[twa]

I think that, in a general sense, wealth breeds wealth and poverty breeds poverty. It is difficult to change one's socioeconomic status more than a little each generation. For instance, I am slightly better off than my parents were at my age but not by much.

I do agree with much of what you've said this far though.

Also, from the article, as she relates to having kids:

 

Wealth is both a safety net and generally imposes conditions(such as education and expectations) along with providing excellent contacts/networking....even the ones making bad choices will manage or be managed

 

The hardest part of leaving poverty is making the choices necessary w/o the support/expectation structure the wealthy have.

Far too many do not even realize or believe there are choices,those that reach out and give inspiration and hope are a special breed.

 

 

 

Special K is certainly right

[HOF44]

This problem will just continue to grow. The facts are for the last 15 or 20 years we have had much more movement from the middle class to poor, than poor up to middle. There was a time in this country when the ownership of Corps felt a social responsibility to return some thing to their communities. This was replaced by the "greed is good" mantra, that any action in the name of corporate profit was not only what should be done, but what must be done.

Eventually they are going to kill the consumer class and there will be no one left with the funds to buy the corporate goods. Henry Ford realized that the best thing for his company to flourish were workers that could afford to buy his cars. He tried to move wages higher not for altruism, but because it would lead him to greater prosperity. This outlook has been lost and the consumer class is dying. We are headed for a "let them eat cake" moment in our future. The massive institutional transfer of wealth from the middle class to the very top is disturbing to say the least. Yet many scream socialism if you threaten that in any way. The reality is laws have been passed with influence purchased by entities which could afford it, and socialism has been instituted, but not in the way most people think of it. This has been redistribution of wealth from the middle to the top.

[twa]

The problem there HOF44 is we are making it so the corps are the main option available, you get the results you encourage both with jobs and poverty.

we are on a bad path and it is not the corps causing it(though they certainly encourage it)

[HOF44]

The problem there HOF44 is we are making it so the corps are the main option available, you get the results you encourage both with jobs and poverty.we are on a bad path and it is not the corps causing it(though they certainly encourage it)

"WE" are not making it that way the influence of Corps on politics is bringing about that result. The truth is they HEAVILY influence both parties. The citizens end up with tea partiers hating and fighting the socialist dems and vice versa. All the while the money grab continues. The corporate oligarchy is in full effect. For a good while the citizenry have been distracted fighting amongst themselves. There will come a time when there are so many poor they will eventually excersize their power either through the voting booth or violently.

[twa]

We are allowing it....what is your price?

just like the poor choices of the poor we have made empowering the corps make "sense"....the tea party and socialist dems are just the ****roaches on the toothpicks ....useless entertainment

[chipwhich]

I failed out of college, I then spent the next 8 years taking 2 classes a semester, working jobs as a concrete dispatcher for minimum wage, food service, I worked evening shifts, midnight shifts.  I used to sleep in my car in the morning after a midnight shift before my first day classes began.  I eventually earned my BS degree in Computer Science.  It was a long tiring road.  The two things I did that kept me out of the trap was I refused to marry my sweetheart until I got my degree and afford to marry and I always believed I could be more than a concrete dispatcher.

 

I know it isn't easy, but we all have our crosses to bear, we all have our reasons for doing what we do, but you have to continue to strive for something better.  Giving up is not an option.

I know it's harder now than when I was in the game, but it's not impossible.

 

I never turned down a job that was too good for me, food service, concrete, elevator installer, movie ticket taker, a landscaper.  A job was a means to my degree.  I remember my landscaping job when one of my fellow workers dug holes with 2 shovels to prove to our supervisor how hard he was willing to work.

Marrying at a young age and pregnancy might hold you back, but you can have the will to succeed.  I believe in it.

 

I almost joined the military, which is another option.  I decided, for me personally, I could forge my own path without the need for their help.  But it would have been a viable option.

[AsburySkinsFan]

The bottom line: the whole issue can be explained by the short-term mindset ingrained in this demographic.  I'm not exactly sure how to address this underlying problem.  I deal with it with people here and I've dealt with it with people I worked with in the developing world; they can't envision life past tomorrow so they make decisions based on what gratifies them at the present.

We call it the treadmill, it's culturally ingrained within their sub-culture. They see visions of the good life, but most have never seen the life it takes modeled sufficiently, or they don't see how that life can be realized in their own life. We live in a day where instant change is almost assumed whether weight loss, fitness, or economic status and sure we all "know" it's stupid to anticipate quick change but with those living on the treadmill the extra effort their putting in doesn't make a difference soon enough to validate the continued effort because the nickle and dimes just don't seem to add up fast enough. So the little things, the things that can be enjoyed today get celebrated.

[chipwhich]

We call it the treadmill, it's culturally ingrained within their sub-culture. They see visions of the good life, but most have never seen the life it takes modeled sufficiently, or they don't see how that life can be realized in their own life. We live in a day where instant change is almost assumed whether weight loss, fitness, or economic status and sure we all "know" it's stupid to anticipate quick change but with those living on the treadmill the extra effort their putting in doesn't make a difference soon enough to validate the continued effort because the nickle and dimes just don't seem to add up fast enough. So the little things, the things that can be enjoyed today get celebrated.

 

I don't know any poor who assume weight loss, fitness, or economic status anticipate a "quick" change.  Economic status maybe through a lottery ticket.

 

I do know people look for a "quick" easy way out and assume those who work hard have it given to them.

[alexey]

It seems you are acting surprised that there is no long term thinking in people who do not know where their next meal is going to come from.

Maybe being hungry and focusing on the next meal is the reason for that.

[twa]

It seems you are acting surprised that there is no long term thinking in people who do not know where their next meal is going to come from.

Maybe being hungry and focusing on the next meal is the reason for that.

starvation is not the real problem here,and any real study will show that....even with SNAP being reduced to normal level

Obesity is 10x the problem

worrying over the next meal is more a problem for those caught in sudden change than the truly poor

[AsburySkinsFan]

I don't know any poor who assume weight loss, fitness, or economic status anticipate a "quick" change.  Economic status maybe through a lottery ticket.

Maybe I am mis-reading you, but it seems like you're saying that there aren't plenty in our culture (and specifically the poor) who are buying into instant weight-loss gimicks, 15 minute abs 2 days per week, and three easy steps to work from home and makes six figures.

 

I do know people look for a "quick" easy way out and assume those who work hard have it given to them.

Given reality it is hard to blame them for thinking that, especially since as someone mentioned earlier that real economic situation change really only makes noticable movement over generations. So in many cases something is given, oh it may not be silver platters and tryst funds, but the cumulative affect of generational influence cannot be denied. Now, is that reason for those born in cyclical poverty to give up on change? Hardly, but it certainly is going to require an adjustment in realistic expectations on both sides; for those in poverty, and on behalf of those who are trying to help.