Suspected poor reference from a former employer, and what to do about it...

[Springfield]

Ok, so here's the deal. Someone very close to me lost their job about two and a half months ago. They have been diligently looking for employment in the same field without any success. Probably two to three dozen applications, close to a dozen job interviews and one "working" interview.

Here's the catch. This person lost their prior job because of poor attendance and tardiness (basically coming in to work late). They were not laid off, they were basically fired for coming into work late too many times. First were warnings and then termination.

This person suspects that the references on previous employment are causing them to lose a job opportunity that would otherwise be successful. Many of the interviews seemed to go well including the working interview. They suspect that the were declined employment specifically based off of a reference's comments.

Do any of the big brains on ES have any thoughts or advice on the subject.

PS: No, this person is not me. No, I'd rather not share who this person is.

[skinsmarydu]

As a restaurant manager, I've had to make/take reference calls over the years.  I would verify the times and pay scales of employment, but offered nothing else.  I've been advised through many classes that the only real question that could be answered without possible legal problems is, "Would (said person) be eligible for rehire with your company?" . A simple yes or no question, and I've been counseled not to elaborate on the "why nots".  Whether it be that they didn't give a timely notice, or whatever.  Chronic tardiness is an issue, but from what I've been taught in corporate settings, should never be specifically addressed.  A yes or no to the rehire question should tell a potential employer all they need to know without details.

It was always enough for me. I never hired anyone with a "no" from the most previous employer. I didn't need to know why.

[theshow84]

i was fired by my old employer for leaving an hour early, with permission from my supervisor, to go to the nationals home opener. i was our employee of the year the year before and had no prior history of attendense problems or had any disciplinary action against me.... basically i was told to sighn out as sick, which i did, and our main office called me out on it, i told them what happened, and had 2 others witness and speak up on it, but they said i couldnt be trusted and let me go... im confident because of this i have been turned down 2 jobs because they said im not a trustworthy employee, even though i have a secret clearance and multiple awards for performance.... there really is nothing you can do because very rarely are potential employers going to take your word over another companies

[abdcskins]

If I were fired from a job there is no way I would put that employer down as a reference.  That's asking for a bad reference.  Tell him or her to take it off right away.  How long were they employed there?  If it was 2+ years then I guess I could see it being your only way to say you were not just sitting on your ass, but otherwise just put down you were traveling or something.

[skinsmarydu]

i was fired by my old employer for leaving an hour early, with permission from my supervisor, to go to the nationals home opener. i was our employee of the year the year before and had no prior history of attendense problems or had any disciplinary action against me.... basically i was told to sighn out as sick, which i did, and our main office called me out on it, i told them what happened, and had 2 others witness and speak up on it, but they said i couldnt be trusted and let me go... im confident because of this i have been turned down 2 jobs because they said im not a trustworthy employee, even though i have a secret clearance and multiple awards for performance.... there really is nothing you can do because very rarely are potential employers going to take your word over another companies

Holy crap, dude...sorry that happened to you...not cool...I left a catering set-up early once for a Braves home opener with Maddux pitching...lucky for me the old ladies who were my supervisors were huge hockey fans, or they wouldn't've understood!!(one from Minnesota, a true Viking, and one from Boston...loved those gals.)

[theshow84]

i was fired by my old employer for leaving an hour early, with permission from my supervisor, to go to the nationals home opener. i was our employee of the year the year before and had no prior history of attendense problems or had any disciplinary action against me.... basically i was told to sighn out as sick, which i did, and our main office called me out on it, i told them what happened, and had 2 others witness and speak up on it, but they said i couldnt be trusted and let me go... im confident because of this i have been turned down 2 jobs because they said im not a trustworthy employee, even though i have a secret clearance and multiple awards for performance.... there really is nothing you can do because very rarely are potential employers going to take your word over another companies

Holy crap, dude...sorry that happened to you...not cool...I left a catering set-up early once for a Braves home opener with Maddux pitching...lucky for me the old ladies who were my supervisors were huge hockey fans, or they wouldn't've understood!!(one from Minnesota, a true Viking, and one from Boston...loved those gals.)

it caught me completely off guard, when they told me i was being terminated the first thing i said was "is this an april fools joke" lol.... the job search has been EXTREMELY frustrating

[TheDoyler23]

I would first question if this person is being honest in the interviews. If the interviewer is asking questions about if he/she was terminated, or why he/she was terminated, is he/she giving a direct and honest answer? Sometimes people lie and it's obvious. Sometimes people tell the truth, but do it horribly.

 

Is this person keeping contact with his/her references? Letting them know when he/she has an interview and asking for them to let him/her know that they got a call from an employer? He/She could learn a lot based on the feedback and how they sound when asked. 

[Springfield]

As far as I know they were honest in the interviews about being terminated and the reasons why. Also explained that it wouldn't happen again and the problem had been corrected.

Later I advised them to kind of glance through it if at all possible. Skirt the issue so to speak.

I don't think that they've kept any sort of contact with the manager of the old job. Honestly I feel that they would be ashamed to call and speak to the manager about future jobs. That's a good point though.

If I were fired from a job there is no way I would put that employer down as a reference. That's asking for a bad reference. Tell him or her to take it off right away. How long were they employed there? If it was 2+ years then I guess I could see it being your only way to say you were not just sitting on your ass, but otherwise just put down you were traveling or something.

Is that even legal? To not list a former employer on an application?

I think that they were at the last job for about a year, maybe a little more. It just seems like lying is never the right way to go to me.

[skinfan2k]

You can list anything you want on an application

[GhostofSparta]

Is that even legal? To not list a former employer on an application?

Yeah, it's legal. But it's not smart depending on how long you worked for that employer. Sometimes it's worse to have a large gap in your work history than to get a bad reference. Plus, if they somehow find out about you not listing an employer, that would be a huge red flag.

[LadySkinsFan]

You can put anything you want on an application, but if it's not true, then you can be fired.

 

I interviewed for a job once, and the agency that put me forward had changed my education achievements.  When the interviewer said something about it, I said, Oh no, I have this education. And then I handed over MY printed resume with the correct education.  I'm proud of what I've achieved.  I think that move got me the job.

 

I have a friend who just interviewed a guy who said he left one job because the business closed.  He told that to 2 interviewers, one phone, one in person.  When my friend checked his references, they found out that he had been fired (chronically late, too many absences), the business was still in business.  So the candidate lied twice, once about the business closing and again about being fired.  He didn't get the job.

 

All we have are our reputations, and they follow us everywhere.  I get repeat work because I follow through, lead by example, and am reliable.  Word to the wise, being tardy is one of the worst offenses besides outright stealing from a company.  It shows that one can't be trusted to get to work and in fact do the work.  The purpose of warnings is to jog people out of complacency and straighten up.  It takes more to fire and then rehire than to get people to shape up.  Contrary to some beliefs, managers/companies don't want to fire people, because we want people to succeed.  I hired a gal once who needed to brush up on her skills.  I gave her every chance to do so, but she ignored my warnings and I had to fire her and replace her with someone who truly wanted the job.

[DC9]

The first thing I would do is try to find a job from a friend in that field that works elsewhere.  If this is the only field dude/dudette has worked in, they hopefully have enough report within that community or have some friends from school or training or connections elsewhere (whatever works) who can put them on.  That's where I'd start.

 

If that doesn't work... seriously, try something else for a bit and then come back and re-apply a year or two later after they've demonstrated that they can be a reliable worker.  Even if it's working retail or somewhere else.  Sometimes when you **** up you have to pay the piper.  This is real life.

 

In terms of listing former employment... I would list everything.  Some of the more senior members of this board (in terms of success and position within their discipline) will probably tell him/her that you should be totally honest.  If we are doing a security clearance check in the Army and you fail to list an employer on your SF86 (hint, we will run all of your W2s and will find out) you fail.  Be honest, don't hide anything.  You never know the resources of an employer.  Why would they hire you if you are hiding something?  The first thing they think of is "this cat is hiding that from me, what else are they hiding and what do they want out of me?"

 

Good luck to your friend, hopefully this helps a bit.

 

EDIT:  Also, if they were late AND drunk/hungover... have them go through alcohol treatment and ensure that they include the graduation certificate.  Full disclosure is best.

[renaissance]

As far as I know they were honest in the interviews about being terminated and the reasons why. Also explained that it wouldn't happen again and the problem had been corrected.

Later I advised them to kind of glance through it if at all possible. Skirt the issue so to speak.

I don't think that they've kept any sort of contact with the manager of the old job. Honestly I feel that they would be ashamed to call and speak to the manager about future jobs. That's a good point though.

 

If I were fired from a job there is no way I would put that employer down as a reference. That's asking for a bad reference. Tell him or her to take it off right away. How long were they employed there? If it was 2+ years then I guess I could see it being your only way to say you were not just sitting on your ass, but otherwise just put down you were traveling or something.

Is that even legal? To not list a former employer on an application?

I think that they were at the last job for about a year, maybe a little more. It just seems like lying is never the right way to go to me.

 

As far as you know as in the individual told you that they are telling the interviewers why they were fired? Don't assume they are being honest. Ask them exactly what they are saying because it's possible they are saying one thing, assuming the interviewer understands the situation, but maybe they aren't giving the interviewer the full story. Also, make sure the individual is being honest with you about why they were fired. Maybe there were other issues besides the tardiness.

 

Also was the last job the only one where the individual had issues? Do they have other people who can serve as positive references? If so, I would tell them to preface the conversation about being fired by saying that they clearly used poor judgement in the past, but here are XX other previous employers who can attest to my ability to be on time, etc...

 

Also, I am with whoever mentioned it above, but most employers these days won't allow staff to serve as references for legal reasons. I worked for a place where any reference calls were sent to HR and all they could do was verify employment dates. So why not list HR's number, and not the actual manager's number? Regardless, they still need to be completely honest in the interviews.

 

Related to above, there's a big difference between listing someone as a former employer and listing them as a reference, I just want to make sure that the individual is only listing the former manager's info in the former employment section, not as an actual reference.

[Springfield]

Yeah, they are just listing them as former employers... not references.

Another thought I had was this. The contact they had put was the HR manager, who seemingly passed the call off to her husband (one of the business owners). My thought is that they list the other business owner as the contact point for reference. I've met him personally and he seems like a nicer fellow.

[Tulane Skins Fan]

Ok, so here's the deal. Someone very close to me lost their job about two and a half months ago. They have been diligently looking for employment in the same field without any success. Probably two to three dozen applications, close to a dozen job interviews and one "working" interview.

Here's the catch. This person lost their prior job because of poor attendance and tardiness (basically coming in to work late). They were not laid off, they were basically fired for coming into work late too many times. First were warnings and then termination.

This person suspects that the references on previous employment are causing them to lose a job opportunity that would otherwise be successful. Many of the interviews seemed to go well including the working interview. They suspect that the were declined employment specifically based off of a reference's comments.

Do any of the big brains on ES have any thoughts or advice on the subject.

PS: No, this person is not me. No, I'd rather not share who this person is.

 

Do a better job of not showing up late at your next job, and don't list your last employer as a reference.  There's nothing else you can do.