Rape in the military

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Fair enough.  What's the solution?

 

Stop raping.

[Destino]

I agree with LSF, men have to take action as this is primarily a male problem. Rape is not ok, making victims of women is not ok, and it should never be seen or talked about as ok between male friends.

Men are entirely too silent on rape and when they do find their voice it's usually to say something like ABQ did a few posts up which makes rape seem like something unavoidable. It's not. It is not a reflex and it is not caused by a women dressing a certain way, asking for it, or daring to take certain jobs. It comes from a lack of respect for women and a belief that an individuals wants and urges somehow entitle them to something.

Sadly while everywhere we turn men are running things there is no male organization to provide leadership on this issue.

I will also say that I'm not entirely onboard with some of what I consider the more questionable interpretations of what constitutes rape. Especially now that saying no is not required and positive and continuous consent are defined in ways that strike me as obviously problematic.

[ABQCOWBOY]

Stop raping.

 

I agree.  Now, how do we make that work?

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I agree.  Now, how do we make that work?

 

Probably the stopping part.

[ABQCOWBOY]

Probably the stopping part.

 

So no solutions then?  OK.  So I guess the answer is to, once again, address all the troops and tell them, Don't Rape People and drive on?

 

 

OK.

[LadySkinsFan]

Probably the stopping part.

 

Out of likes, so I'll quote your post, LKB. 

How about "Don't rape".  If you do, you get prosecuted and jailed.  It is a crime of violence, after all.

[ABQCOWBOY]

Out of likes, so I'll quote your post, LKB. 

How about "Don't rape".  If you do, you get prosecuted and jailed.  It is a crime of violence, after all.

 

I think that this is already happening. The problem is, these measures are not sufficient. 

[LadySkinsFan]

How about all women carry guns or knives and just shoot/slice the penises of their rapists off.  One crime of violence solves another, sort of like self-defense.

[ABQCOWBOY]

How about all women carry guns or knives and just shoot/slice the penises of their rapists off.  One crime of violence solves another, sort of like self-defense.

 

So this is not a serious discussion? 

 

As has been suggested, the numbers of Sexual related crimes follow closely to numbers reported on College Campus in civilian life.   Would this be what you recommend for Universities across America as well?

 

I know you were not serious in your post.  I'm just trying to make a point.  This is not a male problem on women and it's not just a military problem.  This is a power problem.  Women or Men can and do use power to facilitate this kind of behavior everywhere, in every country, in every situation. 

[Destino]

How about all women carry guns or knives and just shoot/slice the penises of their rapists off. One crime of violence solves another, sort of like self-defense.

Women will never win by out violencing men. Though I do understand the impulse to fight fire with fire.

[twa]

How about all women carry guns or knives and just shoot/slice the penises of their rapists off.  One crime of violence solves another, sort of like self-defense.

 

works for me and is self defense

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

Tried to explain that this would be a by product of increasing the role of women in the Military.   Nobody wanted to hear it.

It's not about not wanting to hear it.  Obviously, statistically speaking, if there is X number of rape cases in the military, involving female soldiers/officers, that number is going to rise when you increase the number females.  

 

Doesn't make it right (not saying you think it makes it right) and not allowing more women into the military out of fear of that statistic rising is not the answer.  The answer is keep your penis in your pants and respect your fellow man/woman/soldier/etc.

 

 

First of all, it's not just men.  Whomever has the power, man or women, will use it. 

 

You are not going to want to hear the answers to your questions/statements because the dynamics in play here don't fit Societal parameters.  

 

Better to ask the question, how do you fix it?   At this point, I have seen no effective solution to fixing the problem.

I agree that women can rape men and if in a power position, can use that to take advantage of them and vice versa.  Blackmail is out there too to be used in some cases.  

 

But, how many cases of rape involving a man as a victim do we see (excluding all the crazy female teachers having sex with students), only involving adults of age?  Not many at all.  

 

Back on to how to fix it.  I think you first have to start with revamping the laws, across all states and in the military.  Hell, it wasn't long ago that in NC, legally a man could not rape his wife.  Regardless if she said no, fought him off, etc.  That is down right sickening imo.  The law has since been changed, but it's that type of mentality (the ones putting laws like that in place) and approach that is the first problem.

 

Revamp all the state laws and apply the same, stricter punishment across the board.  Increase the prison sentencing, severity of the law broken and make it to where a plea won't get them a misdemeanor and 30 days community service and 1 year parole.  Same with the military, increase the punishment.

 

I know there are a lot of he said she said cases involving this issue where consent was involved and stories changed later.  But that will always be the case.  But no means no, and any real man respects that, regardless of the situation.  I don't care if you are engaged in intercourse and been going at it 20 mins.  The second the woman says "No" or "Stop" it's over, you do not continue, you disengage and respect her wishes.

[PF Chang]

Clearly, it is not irrelevant.  You context this in a framework that is common to society.  Common to the life most of us live on a day to day basis.  The dynamics involved in the military, especially in a deployed environment are much different.   This is not a right or wrong discussion.  That's universally understood and accepted but that doesn't really change the fact that it's still a problem and it's far from irrelevant.  You can say it's wrong and you shouldn't do it all day long but that message has been sent by the Military for a very long time and yet we see the numbers still rising.

 

Again I ask, what's the answer? 

 

You're going to have to explain the differences in a deployed versus civilian environment as it pertains to sexual assault. Genuine question, because "sleeping/living in close proximity" isn't enough to say the dynamics are radically different. I live with two women, as do many other men who manage to not rape. So I think I am missing the additional dynamics you're talking about. 

 

I don't think there is an answer that's going to satisfy you. The 'solution' to me is the same as it would be for any other violent crime:

 

Make it illegal.

 

Tell people not to do it.

 

If we really need an increase in Common Sense Seminars for Not Raping or other "programs" so be it.

 

When people commit the crime anyway, ensure they are held accountable (here's where the real problem seems to be). 

 

If that all fails, increase the punishment. 

 

 

What else could you be looking for? Straw man upcoming but this just seems to be devolving toward "ban women from the military." 

[ABQCOWBOY]

It's not about not wanting to hear it.  Obviously, statistically speaking, if there is X number of rape cases in the military, involving female soldiers/officers, that number is going to rise when you increase the number females.  

 

Doesn't make it right (not saying you think it makes it right) and not allowing more women into the military out of fear of that statistic rising is not the answer.  The answer is keep your penis in your pants and respect your fellow man/woman/soldier/etc.

 

 

 

I believe that the Military, more then anybody, knew that this problem existed and understood that it would escalate with the inclusion of more female soldiers.   Their solution was to try and hold off the inclusion of more females because there was no good solution to the problem.  Popular opinion has driven the issue and now we have more females serving.   The existing problem has now manifested itself in greater numbers, predictively.   I believe that the Military did try to address this in the only way it could.  They took a beating for this stance and now they will, again, take a beating over the outcome. 

 

It's not that women can not be effective soldiers.  It's managing the problems that come along with increased numbers of Women into the Military IMO.   This is an issue that the Military can not win.   They are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

[Slateman]

 

But, how many cases of rape involving a man as a victim do we see (excluding all the crazy female teachers having sex with students), only involving adults of age?  Not many at all.  

 

Are we counting prison populations?

[Elessar78]

It escapes me how you can't seem to grasp that men are simply expected not to force themselves upon women. 

 

There are already laws, both civil and martial, on the matter—it's simply a matter of enforcing the laws and punishments that are already on the books. 

[ABQCOWBOY]

It's not about not wanting to hear it.  Obviously, statistically speaking, if there is X number of rape cases in the military, involving female soldiers/officers, that number is going to rise when you increase the number females.  

 

Doesn't make it right (not saying you think it makes it right) and not allowing more women into the military out of fear of that statistic rising is not the answer.  The answer is keep your penis in your pants and respect your fellow man/woman/soldier/etc.

 

 

I agree that women can rape men and if in a power position, can use that to take advantage of them and vice versa.  Blackmail is out there too to be used in some cases.  

 

But, how many cases of rape involving a man as a victim do we see (excluding all the crazy female teachers having sex with students), only involving adults of age?  Not many at all.  

 

Back on to how to fix it.  I think you first have to start with revamping the laws, across all states and in the military.  Hell, it wasn't long ago that in NC, legally a man could not rape his wife.  Regardless if she said no, fought him off, etc.  That is down right sickening imo.  The law has since been changed, but it's that type of mentality (the ones putting laws like that in place) and approach that is the first problem.

 

Revamp all the state laws and apply the same, stricter punishment across the board.  Increase the prison sentencing, severity of the law broken and make it to where a plea won't get them a misdemeanor and 30 days community service and 1 year parole.  Same with the military, increase the punishment.

 

I know there are a lot of he said she said cases involving this issue where consent was involved and stories changed later.  But that will always be the case.  But no means no, and any real man respects that, regardless of the situation.  I don't care if you are engaged in intercourse and been going at it 20 mins.  The second the woman says "No" or "Stop" it's over, you do not continue, you disengage and respect her wishes.

 

You may be surprised at the number of Men, in the Military, who are sexually assaulted.   The numbers are probably higher then in Civilian life on the whole. 

 

The Penalties in the Military are harsher then in Civilian life.  The ability to prosecute or administer justice in the Military are less constrictive.   The Military actually has more authority to prosecute.  The problem, IMO, is not trying to be more like Civilian Law. 

You're going to have to explain the differences in a deployed versus civilian environment as it pertains to sexual assault. Genuine question, because "sleeping/living in close proximity" isn't enough to say the dynamics are radically different. I live with two women, as do many other men who manage to not rape. So I think I am missing the additional dynamics you're talking about. 

 

I don't think there is an answer that's going to satisfy you. The 'solution' to me is the same as it would be for any other violent crime:

 

Make it illegal.

 

Tell people not to do it.

 

If we really need an increase in Common Sense Seminars for Not Raping or other "programs" so be it.

 

When people commit the crime anyway, ensure they are held accountable (here's where the real problem seems to be). 

 

If that all fails, increase the punishment. 

 

 

What else could you be looking for? Straw man upcoming but this just seems to be devolving toward "ban women from the military." 

 

 

I love the way you ask a question, deal out the reasons why anything I might say is invalid and then label any response as a a strawman before one word is written. 

 

Why even ask the question?

[Slateman]

It escapes me how you can't seem to grasp that men are simply expected not to force themselves upon women. 

 

There are already laws, both civil and martial, on the matter—it's simply a matter of enforcing the laws and punishments that are already on the books. 

Is it? I mean, why doesn't that argument work against gun control or a host of other things?

[ABQCOWBOY]

It escapes me how you can't seem to grasp that men are simply expected not to force themselves upon women. 

 

There are already laws, both civil and martial, on the matter—it's simply a matter of enforcing the laws and punishments that are already on the books. 

 

I don't understand where this is coming?   I have not seen anybody in this discussion suggest anything like this.  This sort of statement doesn't help the discussion IMO. 

Is it? I mean, why doesn't that argument work against gun control or a host of other things?

 

Or Illegal Immigration.

[mjah]

I don't understand where this is coming?   I have not seen anybody in this discussion suggest anything like this.  This sort of statement doesn't help the discussion IMO. 

 

Neither does trying to abstract away the reality that rape is overwhelmingly a crime perpetrated by men upon women.  "Power is power" is an old attempt at taking the focus off of men, an attempt which fell out of favor in the 90s upon being (correctly) dismissed as mere misdirection.  

 

You asked for a serious discussion.  Respectfully, it helps to model the behavior you request of others.

 

At least there is agreement that the crime is very much about power.  Times were, it was hard to even get that far.

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

Are we counting prison populations?

I wasn't including them.  I was leaning towards adults (i.e. legal age of consent is met so it is not a issue involving a minor) in every day society, where the male was a victim of rape by a female (specifically), whether by force/drugged/etc. or in a position of power over them (i.e. work, blackmail, etc.).  

[ABQCOWBOY]

Neither does trying to abstract away the reality that rape is overwhelmingly a crime perpetrated by men upon women.  "Power is power" is an old attempt at taking the focus off of men, an attempt which fell out of favor in the 90s upon being (correctly) dismissed as mere misdirection.  

 

You asked for a serious discussion.  Respectfully, it helps to model the behavior you request of others.

 

At least there is agreement that the crime is very much about power.  Times were, it was hard to even get that far.

 

It is not I who has introduced the concept.  This concept of Power comes from medical professionals who have devoted considerable time and effort on the subject.   If you wish to condemn me for it, that's fine but I think you give me way too much credit.  Much more learned people then me figured this out.

 

What you say here actually displays the problem better then I could have ever explained it.  Rape in the Military has been going on for a very long time.  It gained focus when women were allowed to become a main stream presence in the Military.   Why is that?  Women are a polarizing focus because of how society views the issue.  Nobody is excusing rape on women or men.  The point is that because women are now the focus of the problem, it is a much bigger problem in the minds of Americans.  Rape has ALWAYS existed in the Military.  Why weren't people outraged over it before?

 

Do you see what I am trying to say?

[PF Chang]

I love the way you ask a question, deal out the reasons why anything I might say is invalid and then label any response as a a strawman before one word is written. 

 

Why even ask the question?

 

Sorry ABQ, I meant that I was about to build you a strawman. I didn't see you say anywhere that women should be banned, so I wanted to acknowledge that you didn't actually say that. But I don't see where else you'd be going with this. Still curious about your deployment vs civilian life assertion. 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Sorry ABQ, I meant that I was about to build you a strawman. I didn't see you say anywhere that women should be banned, so I wanted to acknowledge that you didn't actually say that. But I don't see where else you'd be going with this. Still curious about your deployment vs civilian life assertion. 

 

What I was trying to convey was that the only manageable solution (IMO), the Military had for this problem, was the exclusion of women in the Military.  It's not a statement on Women or their capabilities.   It's more of an unattainable solution for the Military.  They knew it was coming (more women in the Military) and the only solution was to try and segregate it for as long as possible.

 

In terms of deployment, it was more of a statement on the Military in general and how much more difficult it is to manage these situations, on behalf of the Military, when troops are deployed.   Look at statistics from the Navy on pregnancy when women are at sea, as opposed to active stateside.   Life is much harder for Servicemen and women when they are deployed.  You have a lot of factors that come together to create a situation in which normal civilized behaviors are changed.  The act of simply fighting a War is not an excercise in Civilized behavior.   It's not an excuse that legitimizes the behavior.  On the contrary.   It is simply a fact associated with the issue.   The majority of men and women who make up our fighting forces are younger people.  It is hard enough to focus them on things as it is.  Add in high stress situations on a daily basis, being away from Family and Friends (which in many cases means being away from societies ability to conform behavior into civilized patterns) and lots of monotony mixed in and the results become more pronounced.   You start to adopt a live for the moment type of philosophy. 

 

I don't know if you've ever spent much time with Military Personnel in down time situations but if you have or if you ever get the chance to, pay attention to how they use there time and how they view things.   It's telling IMO.  They are not worried about tomorrow, nearly as much as are people who live in everyday society.   It's not an excuse, it is simply a product of living in that life.  The longer you are deployed, the more pronounced the behavior irregularities can become.  We are a volunteer Army so sustained troop levels mean more time deployed.   I suspect that this is a big contributor to why these kinds of things happen. 

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

 

I don't know if you've ever spent much time with Military Personnel in down time situations but if you have or if you ever get the chance to, pay attention to how they use there time and how they view things.   It's telling IMO.  They are not worried about tomorrow, nearly as much as are people who live in everyday society.   It's not an excuse, it is simply a product of living in that life.  The longer you are deployed, the more pronounced the behavior irregularities can become.  We are a volunteer Army so sustained troop levels mean more time deployed.   I suspect that this is a big contributor to why these kinds of things happen. 

 

I'm assuming you were in the military. Did you develop this low opinion of soldiers then or afterwards?