The Official ES All Things Redskins Name Change Thread (Reboot Edition---Read New OP)

[RonYoungEra]

Larry, not being Native American myself, I'm not going to speculate on how often Natives are referred to as redskins in a disparaging way.  I'm certain that it still happens.  I don't think being non-Native and using Google prove that it doesn't.  Just because you've never heard the term used disparagingly in your personal life doesn't mean that it doesn't happen and to think that it never does occur is ignorant, quite frankly.  

 

The point of asking Natives in a poll how they feel about the term "redskin" being used to describe their race by non-Natives, outside of the context of football, is poignant because I believe, as you do, that the Washington Redskins are not using the term in a racist way.  However, the term by itself is offensive to many, at most, a racial slur, and at the very minimal, a racial identifier that doesn't have to belong in professional sports.  No other group of minorities are identified this way in professional sports.

 

I don't feel the need to explain to you again that 9% is in the obvious minority.  I'm not dismissing the other 90%, which, by the way, just because they're not personally offended doesn't automatically mean that they're for it, either.  My point is that if you extrapolate those numbers to the Native American population, you're looking at hundreds of thousands of Natives that are against the term and yes, being used only in the context of representing a professional sports team.  It's "more than a few." It's a lot more than a few.

 

I feel like I'm talking in circles with you and it's getting rather dull, to be honest.  There's not even a debate with you - I'll say something and you'll keep spinning things around to reinforce your agenda and I'll eventually get tired of having to dumb it down to explain it to you.  Then you can claim victory.  Sound good?

 

Now I do understand that this is the message board of the Washington Redskins and I'm not expecting the majority of people here to agree with me, but I am honestly rather surprised at the lack of compassion on this issue.  Look at this history of Native Americans and how they have been treated in this country.  Pretty ****ty, right?  Seems to me, the least we can do for them, and I'm talking about the VERY LEAST we can do, like as a common courtesy, is acknowledge that many, many Natives are not okay w/our use of their word "redskin" and imagery when cheering on our sports team and simply change the name.  Natives are a very spiritual group of people.  The Indian headdress is full of feathers earned, not to be casually thrown on by a white man as he tailgates outside the football stadium on Sundays.  Having our unofficial mascot be a black man that dresses up as an Indian, fake tomahawk and all, as he hoots and hollers and feigns "scalping" the cowboys--as a human being on this earth, isn't there any part of that that does not sit well with you?  The lack of compassion is, honestly, astounding to me.  

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

Do you not see anything inherently wrong with identifying a race of people by the color of their skin?

You mean like black people and white people?

[RonYoungEra]

Ha. Yes, exactly - nice extraction. If you don't know what I'm talking about by now, all hope is lost.

[Kosher Ham]

Fire, I am starting to believe you want to try to completely erase the memory of Natives.

 

Main point is... you NOT being Native. Hush over there and let us deal with this as we choose. We don't need, nor did we ask for your help or any other non-Native. 

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

Ha. Yes, exactly - nice extraction. If you don't know what I'm talking about by now, all hope is lost.

I thought you were talking about identifying a race of people by the color of their skin because of how you kept saying "identifying a race of people by the color of their skin". Guess I was way off.

[RonYoungEra]

Right - as a professional sports team using a name and mascot that have no cultural connection to the team. ie-not a team of Native Americans.

[Kosher Ham]

BTW - There have been several Pro teams named colored or Black. Unless you are also dismissing the Negro League as a pro league.

[grego]

 

 

I feel like I'm talking in circles with you and it's getting rather dull, to be honest.  There's not even a debate with you - I'll say something and you'll keep spinning things around to reinforce your agenda and I'll eventually get tired of having to dumb it down to explain it to you.  Then you can claim victory.  Sound good?

 

 

if youre talking in circles, its probably because you came here thinking you were bringing something new. you said you read the entire thread, which is good, but you came in here with old arguments that people here have been through for literally years. what you should have done is some homework and brought something original. 

 

you would bring an argument, it would get soundly refuted, then you would claim it didnt matter and move onto something else. you have constantly moved the goal posts, changed the argument. honestly, its a credit to you that you havent been run out of here- and thats because you seem like a nice, almost reasonable person who speaks from the heart. 

 

but you have to understand how you've been coming off. you have a position, and youre not changing it no matter what. if your three friends (for which you still havent given an actual basis of their offense, whether it be the name is a slur, against native american mascots, whatever...) were the only three alleged native americans offended, you would still be on the side of changing the name. youre emotionally invested. you cant come to a place where this issue has been debated ad nauseum for years and expect to be embraced when you havent done youre research. 

 

youre a good dude. but understand that many of us here are on the same side of most native americans. your friends opinions count just as much as those native americans who disagree with them. 

 

btw- you mentioned the logo. look into how that came about- not sure i saw a response to that post. 

 

 

Having our unofficial mascot be a black man that dresses up as an Indian, fake tomahawk and all, as he hoots and hollers and feigns "scalping" the cowboys--as a human being on this earth, isn't there any part of that that does not sit well with you?  The lack of compassion is, honestly, astounding to me.  

 

 

 

chief zee may actually be part native american, btw. and i dont see anyone else besides him dressing up in indian garb, or doing some dumb tomohawk chop a la atlanta braves. 

 

but thats another issue. 

[RonYoungEra]

You mean akin to the Red Mesa Redskins? See what they have in common? How many Native American players are on our team?

[RonYoungEra]

Grego - I appreciate the respect in your reply - you wear it well.  Now I will admit that my initial reaction, upon my "revelation" was a bit "fly-by-the-seat-of-the-pants."  After doing some of my own research and reading this entire thread, my thoughts have certainly changed, and I believe for the better.  The vast majority of this thread is debating whether or not the term "redskins" is offensive.  You yourself have not wavered in your knowledge about the origin of the term, and to be honest, your discovery has lead you to dismiss many Natives as not having the right to be offended because their belief as to the origin of the word is wrong.  You're still hanging on to wanting proof as to why they're offended rather than just acknowledging the fact that they are offended.  

 

Please bring something new to the table.  If you don't feel that you need to, you must hold strong to your convictions, whether they're right or wrong.  You say I'm not changing my position no matter what?  My thoughts have actually evolved and changed three times over the past week.  At first, I remained indifferent to the term, as I have for years.  I mean, I'm a white guy, not offended - why should I care?  After some realizations (how the word affects others negatively), I became more uncomfortable with the term, as I know it offends people that I know and love and that alone makes me feel uncomfortable.  So I had a good couple of rounds with you all debating whether the term "redskins" is offensive or not.  Which, in and of itself, is rather ridiculous because everyone's reaction to it will be personal and neither right nor wrong.  There's nothing to "prove" there.  Then I realized that we were debating the wrong thing.  I take issue with the fact that as a professional sports team, we're using a term that defines a race of minorities by the color of their skin.  This is not a team of Native Americans, a la Red Mesa nor the "colored players" of the Negro Leagues.  We claim it to be a term of honor and tell Natives that they should be honored, whereas many of them obviously are not.  

 

I just feel like we can do better.  I certainly don't claim to be a speaker for Natives.  I'm not telling anyone here to be offended or not be offended - it's a personal reaction to a word.  Will history repeat itself?  Will we only change when we're dragged kicking and screaming against possible sanctions against our team (a la segregation with GPM) or loss of money?  If I were Dan, why not be proactive leader, show some goodwill towards others, and make the change already.  It's a small thing that's easy to do and who's ramifications would stretch far.  Again, I don't see it happening any time soon, unfortunately.  But I wish it would.  I'd like to talk football with my friends without worry of if they'll be offended by the name of the team I love.  

 

Words are powerful (as evidenced by our sometimes heated debates in this here thread).  I don't know what the point of us all debating it here truly is and I suspect our discussions (at least mine) will run their course soon.  I don't expect the majority of you to say, "You know what - this crazy **** may just be on to something!" and then rally behind me as we storm Redskins Park.  Maybe I'm just being self-serving here.  Maybe this is me just thinking that I'm doing my small part this week to help make the world a better place.  Perhaps, if nothing else, my ramblings will at least give some of you a reason to stop, reflect, and think about how we treat our fellow man.  

 

-an emotionally invested, somewhat reasonable person

[RFKFedEx]

Thank you Bang for recommending Showdown JFK and the Integration of the Washington Redskins. c. 2011. You suggested it several months back, somewhere in this thread. I finally got around around to reading it on my long flights this past week.

 

Regardless of where anybody stands on the Native theme today, this book is an interesting rendition of team history imo.

 

Notable nuggets which caught my attention, and I deem relevant to this thread:

 

In the early years, GPM would hand pick players to perform in half time festivities. Game unis were shed for Native themed costumes. Apparently rest and locker room briefings didn't matter then. The player/actors would return in time for kickoff.

 

Stewart Udall was the Secretary of the Interior in the early 60s. Udall is most credited with forcing GPM to comply with new Fed employment law as it pertained to the lease at DC Stadium, under construction at the time, also on Fed land.

 

Udall told reporters that letters from public opposition were running 20-1 in favor of allowing the team to maintain its traditional 'white only' personnel policies. Every other NFL and MLB team had integrated by the end of the 1950s. In the same press conference, another writer asked if Udall was going to insist that an American Indian be added to the Redskins team. Udall replied "My Indian Commissioner, John [Orien] Crow, played football--he is a Cherokee--for George Marshall 30 years ago. Apparently Mr. Marshall pioneered earlier in getting Indians into the game, and all we want him to do is just open his mind a little further."

 

It looks like Native team members have long been used as pawns in several facets of team policy debate.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tweedr01]

But wait, I keep changing my arguments when I get "smacked down" right? Now which is it?!

Would be awesome if you would actually contribute to the discussion rather than take pot shots from the side, but hey, if that's what you're into--cool beans, I guess.

I'll contribute when you do, you change your arguments, which plays right into the circle of questions you have. I'm sorry me calling you on that isn't one of the predetermined answers you have. At best, you have added the bare minimum to a large thread, so you should be happy to even get pot shots.

[RonYoungEra]

Welcome back RFKFedEx.

 

Grego - you want me to do my research and contribute new material?  Did you miss the poll I posted earlier that showed 81% of Native Americans are against the use of Native American mascots in sports?  I hadn't seen it posted here before.  I also posted a link to the story about 700 protesters in Minnesota last year.  Larry was glad that I did so - he hadn't seen it before and he even thanked (!) me for posting it.  Don't be so reactionary.  Read more - there's wisdom in these here pages.  

 

Also, you must listen to the games on the radio, huh?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Honorific, indeed.

[grego]

I take some crap for asking "why" when it comes to bring offended, but I'm ok with that.

In my personal life, I'm about as diverse as can be. My wife's Spanish (almost certainly related to native Americans), my pastor is a black woman, along with one of my two sons godmothers and one of his two godfathers. my former pastor's Korean and two of my best friends are a gay couple with four adopted black children. (Sorry for the skin color reference, but they happen to be ok with it).

And I'm a foreigner, for whatever that counts.

I'm hardly coming from a place of racial or social insensitivity or ignorance.

I understand that people are offended about a lot of things. IMO, sometimes it's a little over the top.

I can't wrap my brain around feeling badly about asking someone "why" they are offended.

And if someone has made up their own definition of a word and refuses to acknowledge that they be wrong about their belief, then I'm sorry they need to cling to fairy tales to justify their indignance.

I've evolved quite a bit in my personal beliefs, but I'm not sure I'll ever get to a place where I have to apologize for asking someone why they feel the way they do about the very thing they've spent their life trying to change.

[RFKFedEx]

I'd love to know who had the final say when our band decided to retire their headdresses. Seems like it would have been kind of a big decision to abandon a key prop in the Native themed wardrobe of 8 decades.

[grego]

Welcome back RFKFedEx.

Grego - you want me to do my research and contribute new material? Did you miss the poll I posted earlier that showed 81% of Native Americans are against the use of Native American mascots in sports? I hadn't seen it posted here before. I also posted a link to the story about 700 protesters in Minnesota last year. Larry was glad that I did so - he hadn't seen it before and he even thanked (!) me for posting it. Don't be so reactionary. Read more - there's wisdom in these here pages.

Also, you must listen to the games on the radio, huh?

]

Ok, man.

That's what I'm talking about. "Read more"?

Really?

From the young buck who came in here guns blazing, trying every possible argument already shot down in this thread?

Dude. I practically wrote this ****ing thread.

Seriously. Change your ****ty attitude if you want anyone to listen.

[RonYoungEra]

Relax Grego. I just asked you to do the same thing you just asked me to do. I didn't get pissy but rather gave two examples as to fresh material I brought to this thread just today. If you HAD read more, you would have acknowledged this rather than asking me to give new material. What new thoughts have you brought into this thread other than referencing Goddard ad nauseum?

And do you feel that Native Americans need to explain to you how they could be offended by the pictures that I posted above?

[Kosher Ham]

 

It looks like Native team members have long been used as pawns in several facets of team policy debate.

 

Similar to yourself being used as one to tell us what we feel about the topic ?

 

Grego, chill. They are not worth it.

 

The one thing Fire recently stated that was rather odd, "horrific". It was fans celebrating the team and not in any fashion claiming to be a Chief, nor claiming to be a Native.

[Tweedr01]

Relax Grego. I just asked you to do the same thing you just asked me to do. I didn't get pissy but rather gave two examples as to fresh material I brought to this thread just today. If you HAD read more, you would have acknowledged this rather than asking me to give new material. What new thoughts have you brought into this thread other than referencing Goddard ad nauseum?

And do you feel that Native Americans need to explain to you how they could be offended by the pictures that I posted above?

No you just came in with your holier than thou attitude and talked down to everyone who responded to you no matter if they were respectful or not. Why should anyone treat you with some sort of dignity that you haven't provided yourself?

Why should anyone change their argument when you haven't provided anything new, you change the requirements of your argument when they are proven wrong/stupid, claim your personal opinion as a white guy is more important than actual confirmed quoted Native Americans, and you have a condescending douche attitude even though your arguments sound like something written by a five year old. You are a waste of time and I feel bad for grego having to waste his time and energy responding to you respectfully at any point because you have never given the same. What a bag of wind.

[RedskinsFan44]

Welcome back RFKFedEx.

 

Grego - you want me to do my research and contribute new material?  Did you miss the poll I posted earlier that showed 81% of Native Americans are against the use of Native American mascots in sports?  I hadn't seen it posted here before.  I also posted a link to the story about 700 protesters in Minnesota last year.  Larry was glad that I did so - he hadn't seen it before and he even thanked (!) me for posting it.  Don't be so reactionary.  Read more - there's wisdom in these here pages.  

 

Also, you must listen to the games on the radio, huh?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Honorific, indeed.

OK. so you realize that the ICTMN poll was an internal poll of a website that has taken a strong stand against the team name.  In other words it is kind of like polling freerepubic on the ACA.  They themselves admitted it is unscientfic.  So hanging your hat on that is weak.  As to the Onieda poll, I am sure you would be OK with a poll that asked " It has been established that the term Redskins was originated by Native Americans and that the term was neutral reference throughout the 1800s, do you feel that DC football fans mean to deride Native Americans when they say "Hail to the Redskins"? Annenberg is the most valid poll of NAs that has been taken, national Presidential election polls are often of the same number of respondents.  As to the pictures, the only ones that give me pause are of the first and third picture (same guy), however the Ravens fan gives me a similar reaction.  I think it bears stating that sports team names, iconography, mascots, et al are not meant to be accurate or deep and meaningful discussions of our history, they are more nods to our comon heritage in a fun amd celebratory way.  It is entertainment, a time to let go and have fun.  Seriously, I know plenty of people who take deep offense to the NFL in general, the commercialism, violence, excessive consumption of alchohol, group think etc.  Shall we ban the sport because 10 - 20% think it is an expression of the military industrial complex?   Do you take offense when a guy dresses up as a nun?  Or do you see it as someone being goofy?

Add: I would change the equivalent website to in my analogy from FR to ES, ICTMN is biased but not that nutty. 

 

Add:  Seems pertinent: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fowd29dOyh0

[s0crates]

I'm a lifelong fan, and I think we should change the name.

I live in Arizona. People around the reservations give me looks when I wear my 'skins gear.

I teach college classes. Many of my colleagues raise an eyebrow when I tell them I'm a 'skins fan. I feel obliged to explain I'm not racist.

Me, "I just grew up in the DC area in the 80s. The name? Yeah I know. I know about the indigenous genocide. I read Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee. I have a soul. I swear. I'm just from DC. Yeah we should change it, but you try telling the fans that. Can we talk about something else?"

It makes me uncomfortable is what I'm saying.

I just wanted you to know you're not the only one FireInHisBelly.

[Larry]

I'm a lifelong fan, and I think we should change the name.

And I want to thank you, for being our "reporter on the scene", so to speak.

No, it's not a scientifically rigorous study. But yeah, it is significant news, and should be paid attention to.

I have to say that I'm sure getting the IMPRESSION that, while the Redskins might be right on this issue, factually, that they've lost the PR war for the "hearts and minds".

And that's the "front" in this "war" that's important.

If people THINK it's offensive, then it is.

[Kosher Ham]

I'm a lifelong fan, and I think we should change the name.

 

Are you NA ? For some reason I doubt it.

[s0crates]

Are you NA ? For some reason I doubt it.

That's a Red Herring.

What I said is people's perception of the name as racist is palpable, and that makes me uncomfortable.

[Larry]

Are you NA ? For some reason I doubt it.

Does that mean he isn't qualified to tell us how NAs react to the name?