Rob Jackson's Worth

[The Full Monty]

Have you wondered why?

No.

Since he was a rookie, pass rush duties weren't part of his primary skill set. So coaches saw him that way and he worked at his craft.

But when he lobbied for, and was given, the opportunity, he delivered, starting in early December.

[SkinsTillIDie]

Still can't believe the Orakpo hate. "Obviously everything you look for in a Pro Bowl player" -- in the words of Mike Shanahan. Who's opinion, on basically all football-related matters, I think has been vindicated this year.

A probowler on the perennially losing Redskins (Redskins!) as voted by coaches and peers. Again, re-watch the Saints game. Our pass rush was dynamic, Orakpo was getting pressure, and -- led by our front 7 -- our defense stifled Brees to completing 46% of his passes.

We haven't seen a dominating performance like that from our D since Orakpo got injured.

He defended 3 passes and was all over the field. It certainly looked like he had improved his coverage ability, taken another step forward, and may have been primed for a breakout season. Unfortunately, we won't know until next year.

The most important reason to keep Rob Jackson is because he's a proven player capable of contributing to a winning team. He's entering his prime at 27. Draft picks are uncertainties, they take a while to develop, and we've (somehow) become a team expecting to compete for a Superbowl. Jackson can help in this regard, be it as a starter or a backup.

Orakpo makes us an obviously more dynamic and fierce defense, harder to gameplan for. But Jackson is proven insurance in case a starter goes down for any point of time. As we've seen around the league, a good 10-15% of any team is liable to end the season on IR. Jackson, as insurance, is worth the money.

[The Robert Griffin Experience]

Stevemcqueen said something about Orakpo that is really sticking with me when I watch Jackson: Orakpo, despite his physical dominance which obviously helps our pass rush, isn't a truly instinctive player. He thinks, he doesn't react based on natural defensive instincts. And the thing is, he's been saying this since Rak was drafted.

The thing is though, while Jackson is the more instinctive football player and far better playmaker, what our defense doesn't have is an impact physical presence that wins matchups on his own. Rak is that guy. Rak doesn't have the instincts yet to be elite at anything other than rushing the passer, and probably never will. Jackson is above-average in every area but not truly dominant at any area. It begs the question - if Jackson was this instinctive and smart as a player, wouldn't it have been better to have drafted another physically dominant interior pass rusher like Watt or Fairley?

Also keep in mind, Jackson is actually older than Rak.

[jsteelz]

Rak will get extended this offseason, i'll check on Jackson after our season. Also hearing no matter how far we go, Slowick is to be out, BUT keep in my he is a Shanny friend

[NikoBellic]

He is a starting OLB.

He is not a back up.

Orakpo is a pass rusher. Jackson is a Linebacker. He needs to be paid. I say we give him a 3 year $6 to $7 mil range. Let Golston walk and give him that money. We can make it work.

EDIT: If last night didn't prove to the Orakpo homers that Rob Jackson is a better football player, I'm moving on from the conversation. The kid is a baller and he makes big plays on the big stage where Orakpo dissappears. End of discussion for me.

this sounds really good. i wish we would do 3-4/4-3 hybrid and make it work

[DC9]

Rak will get extended this offseason, i'll check on Jackson after our season. Also hearing no matter how far we go, Slowick is to be out, BUT keep in my he is a Shanny friend

Thanks. Hopefully it's for the right amount of money.

[Lavarleap56]

Rak probably is not going anywhere but this debate is interesting...

On one hand you have a hell of a pass rusher in Brian Orakpo. On the other hand you have Jackson who appears to be a better LB.. You can make a very realistic and sound argument for both sides and neither would wrong.

2011- Rak/Kerrigan -2, 011 combined snaps... 19 sacks 78 hurries

Kerrigan: 1, 056 snaps/ 450 pass rushes- 9 Sacks

Orakpo: 955 snaps / 390 pass rushes - 10 sacks

2012- Kerrigan/Jackson - 1, 715 combined snaps... 14 sacks 62 hurries

Kerrigan : 1, 105 snaps / 588 pass rushes- 9 sacks

Jackson: 610 snaps / 206 pass rushes - 5 sacks

Lamar Woodley and Brooks Reed are giving you the same production as Jackson while being near the same snap count.

To me it is a "Value" question not a talent one. Both guys are talented in different areas but Jackson has shown the ability to make plays we have not seen Orakpo make in his career.

On one hand you have a few more sacks and hurries. But on the other hand you have solid play and turnovers. What is worth more? Tough call honestly.

[DC9]

Interesting LL.

Orakpo basically had twice as many pass rushes last year as Jackson did this year and only had twice as many sacks? But didn't have the game changing turnovers that Five-0 has had...

Well, color me surprised

Thanks for adding that! At the end of the day, if both are HEALTHY, this LB corps is in fantastic shape going forward and we keep both, in my opinion.

[The Full Monty]

At the end of the day, if both are HEALTHY, this LB corps is in fantastic shape going forward and we keep both, in my opinion.

Agreed, we should keep both. I don't know why legitimate criticism of Orakpo is interpreted as "hate". What is hateful about pointing out the lack of big plays? It's not like we're insulting him as a person or as a locker-room influence. He doesn't make big plays. This situation doesn't have to be an either/or proposition. As others have said, the Steelers stockpile OLBs and that's worked out pretty well for them!

We can do the same.

[RedCapital]

what? Seriously, what are you asking? Be more specific about what you want me to be more specific about.

You said Orakpo does not show up in big games, that he essentially crumbles under pressure. When has this happened? What big games has he played in that he hasn't shown up in? What big games has he played in at all?

If you're simply saying he's not a game-changer like the other person who responded to me did, I think the Pro Bowls would beg to differ.

[The Robert Griffin Experience]

Agreed, we should keep both. I don't know why legitimate criticism of Orakpo is interpreted as "hate". What is hateful about pointing out the lack of big plays? It's not like we're insulting him as a person or as a locker-room influence. He doesn't make big plays. This situation doesn't have to be an either/or proposition. As others have said, the Steelers stockpile OLBs and that's worked out pretty well for them!

We can do the same.

The Steelers stockpile cheap OLBs garnered through the draft, we're talking about giving significant money to someone who will be a backup if Orakpo is here. It brings up a very similar situation to the Cousins debate, and the Cooley debate a few years back - what is the opportunity cost of keeping two quality starters who will have to split a limited number of snaps at the same position, as opposed to trading one of those starters for resources needed to get quality starters at positions where we lack them? It is also important to consider that Jackson will likely come significantly cheaper than Orakpo. Jackson appears to be similar, if slightly worse in terms of pass rush ability, but is significantly better in tackling, coverage and overall playmaking. It is telling that Jackson has 33% of the forced fumbles Rak has had in his entire career in 610 snaps. If we could get a first rounder for Rak, we should trade him and resign Jackson at a lower cost.

With that said, Orakpo got 25% of his pass deflections in a single game, so he looks like he might be improving in that regard. But if he doesn't provide significantly higher pass rushing than Jackson, and he's not as good in coverage or playing the run, and has an injury history and will cost more money, then what?

[The Full Monty]

If you're simply saying he's not a game-changer like the other person who responded to me did, I think the Pro Bowls would beg to differ.

Just to chime in, you already know Pro Bowls aren't the best gauge of a player right? Why even bring that up? Jeff Saturday, who was benched, is in the Pro Bowl over Will Montgomery, who has been stellar. London Fletcher is only an alternate.

Orakpo doesn't make game-changing plays. I wish he did. The best anyone can come up with so far is a holding penalty that he drew against Alex Barron (currently seeking employment) and a 4-sack game against the Raiders. Sorry but that's very underwhelming.

Orakpo did not get a divisional sack until last season. I'd say division games are pretty big, no? It's too bad he can't play Jamarcus Russell all the time.

I love his attitude, leadership, passion, but I don't understand how defensive people get with legitimate, fact-based criticisms of his performance. It's not personal. It's on-the-field production. Do I hope he elevates his play? Absolutely!

HTTR!

[DC9]

The Steelers stockpile cheap OLBs garnered through the draft, we're talking about giving significant money to someone who will be a backup if Orakpo is here. It brings up a very similar situation to the Cousins debate, and the Cooley debate a few years back - what is the opportunity cost of keeping two quality starters who will have to split a limited number of snaps at the same position, as opposed to trading one of those starters for resources needed to get quality starters at positions where we lack them? It is also important to consider that Jackson will likely come significantly cheaper than Orakpo. Jackson appears to be similar, if slightly worse in terms of pass rush ability, but is significantly better in tackling, coverage and overall playmaking. It is telling that Jackson has 33% of the forced fumbles Rak has had in his entire career in 610 snaps. If we could get a first rounder for Rak, we should trade him and resign Jackson at a lower cost.

With that said, Orakpo got 25% of his pass deflections in a single game, so he looks like he might be improving in that regard. But if he doesn't provide significantly higher pass rushing than Jackson, and he's not as good in coverage or playing the run, and has an injury history and will cost more money, then what?

This is all I've been saying for about two months now. Thank you! Very well done.

[Probos]

We resign him. To me it's not even a question.

[The Full Monty]

With that said, Orakpo got 25% of his pass deflections in a single game, so he looks like he might be improving in that regard. But if he doesn't provide significantly higher pass rushing than Jackson, and he's not as good in coverage or playing the run, and has an injury history and will cost more money, then what?

Your whole post was great and I love that you cited facts to back your questions, which were also spot-on. I bolded the part of your question that rests on a contestable assumption.

I think that Orakpo's injury history diminishes his trade value and lowers his leverage at the negotiating table. We may not get a 1st round price for him, and conversely, as of now, he doesn't have the juice to ask for a big payday. Next year we have to see that he is 100% before we can make an informed judgment. If he comes back firing on all cylinders and with improved play, the questions you pose get the volume turned way up.

[bedlamVR]

I would love to retain Jackson - but as a back up - and get some more rotation on the OLB sets - especially with Rak coming off injury . That might be a problem as Jackson might be looking for starter opportunities and might get some looks there . I think we can offer him money that will be acceptable to him but we cannot offer him maybe the playing time he requires .

The thing that concerns me about Jackson - and this is not a knock on the kid - but he has been on and off of this team like a yo-yo in recent years . Now he has had the opportunity he is playing very well and making the most of his opportunities but can he really transition to a full time starter over 16 games for the next 3-4 years ? And he has not played the reps other back ups have - is he actually a great player but only in sub packages - or is he a good enough player to be a full time starter - and if you think the latter are you willing to stake a 2 time pro-bowler 26 year old pass rusher entrenched in the position to prove it ?

I want Jackson back- i don't want to trade him but build strength

[IrepDC]

Right now, we have Fletcher/Riley blitzing from ILB, and Jackson dropping into the flats from OLB. Next year, let Orakpo blitz from OLB, he could even stunt to the middle if you like, and have Jackson get to the flats from ILB. Same concept we run now, and if anything, it'll just confuse QB's even more. Both guys get to do what they do best, and we're still running our most effective defense- problem solved.

---------- Post added January-1st-2013 at 11:11 AM ----------

I can see it now, Romo sits to pee/Manning/Foles drops back.. "Oh **** Rak is coming off the edge!" *Throws dump off* "Where the **** did that LB come from?!" *Interception Jackson*

[The Full Monty]

From today's Washington Examiner, which has this absurd and bizarre title In action, Jackson a game-changer for Redskins:

"When [Rob Jackson] was on the scout team, we had a hard time blocking him," Redskins coach Mike Shanahan said. "I just kept on thinking, 'Sooner or later, he's going to transfer this to the field.' And he really has once he's had the opportunity to play and play consistently. ... He's made some big plays the last three or four games. That's a difference in us winning and losing."

[RedCapital]

Just to chime in, you already know Pro Bowls aren't the best gauge of a player right? Why even bring that up? Jeff Saturday, who was benched, is in the Pro Bowl over Will Montgomery, who has been stellar. London Fletcher is only an alternate.

Orakpo doesn't make game-changing plays. I wish he did. The best anyone can come up with so far is a holding penalty that he drew against Alex Barron (currently seeking employment) and a 4-sack game against the Raiders. Sorry but that's very underwhelming.

Orakpo did not get a divisional sack until last season. I'd say division games are pretty big, no? It's too bad he can't play Jamarcus Russell all the time.

I love his attitude, leadership, passion, but I don't understand how defensive people get with legitimate, fact-based criticisms of his performance. It's not personal. It's on-the-field production. Do I hope he elevates his play? Absolutely!

HTTR!

Division games aren't big when your team is 3-10 and out of contention. I seem to remember Orakpo getting held on a certain play to end the first game of the season a couple years ago in a division game.

Also, Pro Bowlers might not necessarily be the most accurate way to get the best players, but I think two selections in his first two years is at least indicative of making some "game-changing" plays, which sacks can be.

[DC9]

Division games aren't big when your team is 3-10 and out of contention. I seem to remember Orakpo getting held on a certain play to end the first game of the season a couple years ago in a division game.

Also, Pro Bowlers might not necessarily be the most accurate way to get the best players, but I think two selections in his first two years is at least indicative of making some "game-changing" plays, which sacks can be.

Neither of those two points hold any water. Division games are always big. Are you saying that Orakpo gives up or the team gives up when they are 3-10? He still has the opportunity to change a game.

And I am not even going to touch that pro bowl comment... you are just romanticizing.

Don't worry... eventually (after another couple of years of winning) you'll start seeing these conversations as what's best for the team and you won't necissarily have loyalties to overhyped guys like Orakpo. It's not your fault that this type of fandom is really all that your generation has had to hold on to. Hang in there, RC. You're all heart, baby.

[Metskins]

Shouldn't be surprised that this thread pops up. Guy has been a good role-player. If he gets offered a boat ton of money some place else, I'd expect him to take it and I'd hope the Skins would wish him well and look elsewhere.

Not a shocker that most people ITT don't know what makes a good organization....hell, they've been watching this organization run itself into the ground for the better part of twenty years. Good organizations know when to sell high on guys and have the talent evaluators and coaching staff in place to find new guys at cheaper prices.

[Skins199021]

oh god were back to bashing our own players because we believe another is better. I thought we moved pass this. They are both productive, both will be on the team. Orakpo has a much better track record fyi

[DC9]

Shouldn't be surprised that this thread pops up. Guy has been a good role-player. If he gets offered a boat ton of money some place else, I'd expect him to take it and I'd hope the Skins would wish him well and look elsewhere.

Not a shocker that most people ITT don't know what makes a good organization....hell, they've been watching this organization run itself into the ground for the better part of twenty years. Good organizations know when to sell high on guys and have the talent evaluators and coaching staff in place to find new guys at cheaper prices.

Oh boy. So are you saying you'd sell Orakpo high or you'd let Jackson walk if you were GM? You are kind of walking the line a little there Johnny Cash.

[rumplestilskin]

Again. 9 sacks. It's annoying, but it's a pretty good argument. And he pins his ears back all the time because that's basically all he does is rush the quarterback.

And again... what makes you think "Rak" would've made that "gimme" from Romo sits to pee last night when he couldn't catch a gimme earlier in the year from Drew Brees?

What kind of numbers do you think Orakpo would have had if he played for say New England last year? He also had 3 forced fumbles last year which equates to a turnover if recovered. 9 sacks aint to shabby and only reinforce the notion that if we had a good offense in the past he would have produced better numbers.This year he had another force fumble sack. I agree Jackson has better hands and better pass defense but this alone does not trump the fact that our defense is reliant apon having two guys who can get to the QB consistantly. Jackson needs to stay but so does Rak.

[DC9]

What kind of numbers do you think Orakpo would have had if he played for say New England last year? He also had 3 forced fumbles last year which equates to a turnover if recovered. 9 sacks aint to shabby and only reinforce the notion that if we had a good offense in the past he would have produced better numbers.This year he had another force fumble sack. I agree Jackson has better hands and better pass defense but this alone does not trump the fact that our defense is reliant apon having two guys who can get to the QB consistantly. Jackson needs to stay but so does Rak.

New England? Who cares? Not me. And yes... very good... if he forced a fumble and he or someone else picks it up, that is a turnover.

I mean... Joe Flacco... Rob Jackson sack fumbles him... it rolls about 4 yards down the field... no one gets... so Rob Jackson goes and gets it.

Look, again, say what you need to say to feel better about yourself. I get it, but don't bash the kid out of Kansas State. We wouldn't be playing this Sunday if it wasn't for him. That I am pretty sure of.

But I am sure that we are playing in this game without Orakpo save for one game and a quarter.

I am also with everyone else who really does root for Orakpo to get better, but his track record vs Jackson's speaks otherwise.

---------- Post added January-1st-2013 at 11:58 AM ----------

oh god were back to bashing our own players because we believe another is better. I thought we moved pass this. They are both productive, both will be on the team. Orakpo has a much better track record fyi

No one is bashing... just talking. Read your last sentence in your post... it's posts like that that will keep a thread like this going. So if you want it to go away, join in with some strength and then step out. If you want it to keep going, drop in and leave a one liner like that.