Thoughts of a Negative Poster

[Oldfan]

That's Jim Zorn.

Jim Zorn's had a short-term contract, but that's the only thing about his situation that would be like what I would envision. It's not enough to have a plan, you need the right people to execute it. Zorn wasn't the right man and neither was Vinny.

---------- Post added December-14th-2012 at 01:27 AM ----------

Well, I actually agree with just about everything you posted here. I also think RGIII is one of the best QB's to play the game, but I also think with his athletic ability alone it makes us more than mediocre.

I'm not as high on this team or on Mike Shanahan as you seem to be. I think Mike's a super offensive mind, but he has control of the entire team, not just the offense.

---------- Post added December-14th-2012 at 01:40 AM ----------

Oh I know why he supposedly thinks that. I just think his reasoning for thinking it is flawed. To be very, very, very polite.

Tell you what... why don't you author a thread explaining your method of evaluating NFL QBs and I'll show up and we can debate the issue?

[KCClybun]

Jim Zorn's had a short-term contract, but that's the only thing about his situation that would be like what I would envision. It's not enough to have a plan, you need the right people to execute it. Zorn wasn't the right man and neither was Vinny.

And yet you can't be arsed to name one person who would've been a better candidate for head coach or general manager.

So you accuse Dan Snyder of not having the goal of having the number one organization in football because...I don't know, reasons or whatever, and then you suggests that hiring Mike Shanahan and Bruce Allen was a bad move because of their history of being mediocre.

And ya know...there's a ton of evidence that proves that you're...misguided. To once again, put it politely. But what's even the point?

Ultimately you succeeded in your goal of bringing more negativity to the board in the midst of a lot of fans, even the more negative amongst us, being in a great mood

We can only hope to be such as grumpy and fatalist as you.

[Oldfan]

.... By your standards you would not have hired Belichick and Pioli in 2000 for the Patriots even though you said that you regard the Patriots as the #1 team in the NFL.

You are right. It's quite possible that I wouldn't have hired Belichik, but his record at Cleveland and Shanahan's with full control for 10 years are not comparable. Belichik was dealing with factors out of his control.

---------- Post added December-14th-2012 at 01:49 AM ----------

...We can only hope to be such as grumpy and fatalist as you.

Between your personal attacks, your boring sarcasm, and your incessant strawman arguments, you aren't worth my time.

[KCClybun]

Tell you what... why don't you author a thread explaining your method of evaluating NFL QBs and I'll show up and we can debate the issue?

I have no desire to "debate" you on why you think my method of doing anything is wrong. I've been done that road, and frankly you're not special enough for me to waste my time on creating a thread just for you to come in and trash. You believe that Robert's physical attributes alone make him the greatest quarterback who's ever played the game. I fundamentally disagree with that notion and with most of the **** you say. Calling someone the greatest to ever play when he's only played 13 games, no matter how spectacular, is hyperbolic, to say the least.

---------- Post added December-14th-2012 at 01:50 AM ----------

Between your personal attacks, your boring sarcasm, and your incessant strawman arguments, you aren't worth my time.

You're such a ****ing bull**** artist. And I wish someone else would actually call you on it.

[zCommander]

If the Redskins win the SB next year would you still say Mike and Bruce are mediocre?

[DogofWar1]

It's quite possible I wouldn't have hired Belichik, but his record at Cleveland and Shanahan's with full control for 10 years are not comparable. Belichik was dealing with factors out of his control.

Not in 2010, but at any point in, say, the last ten or fifteen years, who would you have hired as a coach if you were the owner? I'm trying to figure out the exact criteria that a coach would have to fulfill, but I'm having trouble determining what your exact criteria is. It sounds like you want someone young and hungry, but I have to imagine there's a minimum experience requirement.

Would maybe Kyle Shanahan have been closer in your eyes, a young offensive guru trying to escape his dad's shadow? Or maybe someone like Raheem Morris circa 2010? I'm just trying to get an idea.

[elkabong82]

It's quite possible I wouldn't have hired Belichik, but his record at Cleveland and Shanahan's with full control for 10 years are not comparable. Belichik was dealing with factors out of his control.

Under your standards of what a good coach hire should entail they absolutely are comparable as both fall short. If you're willing to admit to the possibility that your standards would have denied you Belichick, are you then willing to admit perhaps your standards need revising?

Really I think the better argument for you to make is the historical trend that no head coach has won a Superbowl with one team and then won another head coaching another team and thus, despite conventional wisdom, hiring a Superbowl-winning head coach is actually a bad idea. I wouldn't agree with it, but at least historical precedent would be on your side.

I don't trust Snyder to find a good up-and-comer. What I do trust is for him to bring in a quality experienced HC who then recommends one of those up-and-comers as his replacement.

[Oldfan]

I have no desire to "debate" you on why you think my method of doing anything is wrong.

Smart move.

---------- Post added December-14th-2012 at 02:03 AM ----------

Under your standards of what a good coach hire should entail they absolutely are comparable as both fall short. If you're willing to admit to the possibility that your standards would have denied you Belichick, are you then willing to admit perhaps your standards need revising?

No. I would be looking for the best combination of brainpower and experience I could find in a man with a promising future. I don't want a retread.

Really I think the better argument for you to make is the historical trend that no head coach has won a Superbowl with one team and then won another head coaching another team and thus, despite conventional wisdom, hiring a Superbowl-winning head coach is actually a bad idea. I wouldn't agree with it, but at least historical precedent would be on your side.

That's not a sound argument.

I don't trust Snyder to find a good up-and-comer. What I do trust is for him to bring in a quality experienced HC who then recommends one of those up-and-comers.

I don't think Snyder is willing or able to lead this team to #1. So, I'm lowering my goal. I'll be satisfied if I can watch RG3 perform -- healthy -- for several years.

---------- Post added December-14th-2012 at 02:07 AM ----------

Not in 2010, but at any point in, say, the last ten or fifteen years, who would you have hired as a coach if you were the owner?

I wanted Jim Schwartz here, not Zorn. But, he would not have put up with the Vinny and Dan show.

Schwartz has the brainpower to compete with Belichik. But, you would still need a GM.

[Bang]

7 mil a year is chump change DEs make 10 mil average.

Seriously, your assertion is that rich people just like to throw away 35 million dollars for essentially nothing?

Jim Zorn had us mediocre for a year.. how'd Dan like that? Not much patience for mediocrity in that case. Must have been the lack of name that soured him on Zorn so quickly after a mediocre season.

35 million .. and expecting nothing more than mediocrity and name recognition.

And you claim that on thoughtful reason this makes sense?

I'm sorry. That's ridiculous.

(BTW, read up on how players get paid. very very very few people get paid 10 mil per year, especially defensive ends. the salary and bonus structure precludes the vfast vast majority of players from making that much before they're forced to renegotiate or be cut. Average NFL salary clocks in around 1.9 mil.

According to this http://www.spotrac.com/top-salaries/nfl/average/defensive-end/, 9 defensive ends make 10 mil or more. And on average, according to http://www.buzzle.com/articles/average-nfl-salary-by-position.html including those top elite guys, the rest of the defensive ends in the league make about 1.5 million.. about 7 times less than your estimate.

but hey, they probably aren't following your salary guidelines, right?

~Bang

[Oldfan]

If the Redskins win the SB next year would you still say Mike and Bruce are mediocre?

If they did it with a perfect storm of luck, I'd still wait to see what they did for an encore. But if they put a solid team together and won it, I'd be tickled pink to say I was wrong about them.

---------- Post added December-14th-2012 at 02:22 AM ----------

Seriously, your assertion is that rich people just like to throw away 35 million dollars?

And you claim that on thoughtful reason this makes sense?

I'm sorry. That's ridiculous.

(BTW, read up on how players get paid. very very very few people get paid 10 mil per year, especially defensive ends. the salary and bonus structure precludes the vfast vast majority of players from making that much before they're forced to renegotiate or be cut.

~Bang

You are repeating the same argument. You don't like mine. I don't like yours.

[Bang]

If they did it with a perfect storm of luck, I'd still wait to see what they did for an encore. But if they put a solid team together and won it, I'd be tickled pink to say I was wrong about them.

---------- Post added December-14th-2012 at 02:22 AM ----------

You are repeating the same argument. You don't like mine. I don't like yours.

Yours isn't based in any sort of reality.

You pish posh and offhandedly make up a claim right out of thin air that average DEs make ten mil, i show you they make 1.5 You don't like my fact? Prefer your made up fantasy number?

You claim Dan Snyder threw 35 million down for mediocrity and name, I ask for even the slightest proof, anything reasonable that would show that any NFL owner thinks this way, much less this one. (the guy who ran kids off for selling lemonade at camp, if you recall.)

You base this on "reason"... but offer none.

You have no argument.

Again.

And so you fall back on dismissive nonsense.

Again.

~Bang

[Oldfan]

Yours isn't based in any sort of reality.

You pish posh and offhandedly make up a claim right out of thin air that average DEs make ten mil, i show you they make 1.5 You don't like my fact? Prefer your made up fantasy number?

You claim Dan Snyder threw 35 million down for mediocrity and name, I ask for even the slightest proof, anything reasonable that would show that any NFL owner thinks this way, much less this one. (the guy who ran kids off for selling lemonade at camp, if you recall.)

You base this on "reason"... but offer none.

You have no argument.

Again.

And so you fall back on dismissive nonsense.

Again.

~Bang

I'm not interested in debating this with you any longer.

---------- Post added December-14th-2012 at 02:41 AM ----------

If you're willing to suspect he could just be a dimwit than you have to admit the possibility he could want to win a superbowl more than anything, but isnt smart enough to pick the right staff. No?

I think I allowed that possibility earlier.

[s0crates]

You know what I find amusing... The people who are ridiculing OF are doing the same thing that they believe is wildly inappropriate on OF's behalf. Except, for the most part, OF keeps his "insults" in line with the topic at hand and the corresponding posts. Where other's seem to miss is the whole idea of attacking the idea, or the content of post, rather than a poster.

Everyone needs to cool their jets. Everyone. It's a topic of discussion. OF threads generally melt down because people get frustrated with his style. His style is ABSOLUTELY INCREDIBLY frustrating to debate with. Which is why I view it as a good time when I take an opposing stance to him. But people have some sort of vendetta against him and the same few seem to come into every thread that he makes and talk about prior points that he may or may not have made (seriously, some of the stuff brought up is patently false).

Next time OF starts a thread, try something: Pretend the OP was made by someone entirely different. Read the thread with an open mind. And then reply with a constructive response.

OF may come back and completely shoot you down, or only partially shoot you down (don't worry, he will shoot you down). But this board is so much more enjoyable when you accept him for who he is and what he does. He generates tons of discussion and the guy is a lightning rod for criticism.

No one has to listen to me. I'm a no one. And I'm okay with that. But I am trying to help everyone out here by saying that it's not that serious. It's a discussion forum. Take a deep breath. Differing opinions are good for the world. Enjoy these threads.

I'm with you on this one KDawg.

OF is kind of like a skeptic, he drives people nuts with his reasonable doubts about their assumptions and absolute refusal to budge. People sometimes get defensive when their worldview is called into question.

Another thing I will say for OF is that he always seems to reply to your posts if you address his argument directly, and you have to respect the effort that takes and what a contribution it is to the forum.

He is hard-headed though.

[pimpumd]

I'm not interested in debating this with you any longer.

This is what people are talking about. Facts were presented that absolutely debunked your argument, and this is your response. Yet, you feel it appropriate to chastise posters for lacking "debate" skills.

Interesting. So you're basically looking to start threads where the following occurs: 1) Posters agree with you and everyone holds hands and sings kumbaya, or 2) Posters disagree with you and are summarily dismissed when their argument has merit (see above "classical debate" technique). Bravo.

[2STaylor1]

i read every post from oldfan because i love his insight, but i dont feel we should be negative. as a fan/homer/whatever, i like to try and believe in our team and hope for the best

[Jacoah]

I'll concede that anyone can pull a line out of any of my paragraphs to distort the message. I'm not sure why they would want to do that, but it's an easy thing to do.

Then I'll pull this line from a great piece of literature and we'll just agree to disagree: "I prefer not to."

[Oldfan]

i read every post from oldfan because i love his insight, but i dont feel we should be negative. as a fan/homer/whatever, i like to try and believe in our team and hope for the best

We all hope for the best. But, there's nothing wrong with your position unless you feel that taking it makes you superior to other fans.

---------- Post added December-14th-2012 at 07:51 AM ----------

I'm with you on this one KDawg.

OF is kind of like a skeptic, he drives people nuts with his reasonable doubts about their assumptions and absolute refusal to budge. People sometimes get defensive when their worldview is called into question.

Skepticism is exactly the right word. I hear what passes for conventional wisdom and my natural reaction is to say, "Well, maybe that's true and maybe it isn't. I'll have to think about that."

Another thing I will say for OF is that he always seems to reply to your posts if you address his argument directly, and you have to respect the effort that takes and what a contribution it is to the forum.

I try to reply to all polite posters who are on-topic and non-repetitive.

He is hard-headed though.

So, which disagreement are you insisting you were right about?:pfft:

[KDawg]

I wasn't trying to imply that you were against Shanahan being hired.

More arguing Oldfan's "You don't hire someone with a record of mediocrity" comment.

OFs comments have nothing to do with the topic I was speaking on, namely Belichick's "mediocre" record. My argument was that the labeling of his Cleveland tenure as "mediocre" was bunk due to the unforseen, completely out of the ordinary situation. Oldfan has nothing to do with it.

[Going Commando]

OF you must have had philosophical training at some point.

[Oldfan]

OF you must have had philosophical training at some point.

I started out reading philosophy when it was about a way to live. Dropped it when it swung away from that.

I've noticed you go deep sometimes. Are you a philosopher?

[kleese]

I can't decide if OF doesn't understand his audience or if he knows them perfectly and enjoys the needling?

Language is very important in this world. Very. The liberal left made a HUGE push several years ago to abandon the term "liberal" and adopt "progressive" instead. Everything stayed exactly the same in terms of their agenda and belief system, but they desperately wanted to change that one word. Why? Because people get hung up on language.

This has burned me a bit in the past on ES as well. My most recent example would be my "If Shanny finishes 6-10 or worse...." Thread. The point I was trying to make was that I felt it was time to start really judging Shanny and that he should be on the hot seat if we failed to produce better results this year. I think it was a pretty sound argument. But people could not get past the "6-10" distinction in my thread title. They called me out on it, and I will admit, that drawing a line in the sand at a certain number of wins didn't make much sense. It wasn't my intention to do so, but I do think I was going for a catchy, eye-grabbing thread title and in the process really hurt my own stance on the matter. I was frustrated because people were clearly not reading my entire post and were instead getting hung up on those few words.

I think the same thing has happened here by using the term "negative."

I think anyone who reads the entire OP can get the gist of where OF is going without coming to the conclusion that he wants everyone to be grumpy and angry. But honestly, a lot of people either don't make it that far or are so locked in on the term that they fail to see the greater meaning.

Perhaps from OF's point of view that's a "you" problem-- not his fault if people won't take the time to properly digest what he's written. But by the same token, we've all been here long enough to know the ES audience. As I mentioned in my first response to this thread, the ES fanbase is different from forums on other sports I follow... And it sort of mirrors the sport of football... Louder, hard hitting, fast....I've learned over the years what types of threads/comments or even simply words will fire up or intruige the community as a whole. And I will admit that playing on that knowledge in an effort to create threads that generate more traffic/interest. You can asbolutely call it an ego play, and I'd likely stand guilty as charged... Even if sometimes it is a little subconscious.

OF is well versed and he is interesting. As an example, I am not sure I really agree with almost any aspect of his QB grading system and I certainly don't agree with his conclusions, but I find those threads highly entertaining.. I appreciate the fact that he takes the time and proposes outside the box theories, etc. And it is also my personal opinion that OF knows this audience and knows what is going to get a rise out of people. Absolutely nothing wrong with that... It's a message board for discussion and that is what he generates. At 10+ pages it looks like OF has once again struck the nerve I imagine he was looking to strike.

[Skinsinparadise]

I wanted Jim Schwartz here, not Zorn. But, he would not have put up with the Vinny and Dan show.

Schwartz has the brainpower to compete with Belichik. But, you would still need a GM.

I'll give Schwartz a plus that Danny and Vinny interviewed him and decided not to hire him. Considering I don't trust neither of their judgement.

But Schwartz has mostly been a failure at least record wise with the Lions. He's in year #4 now, 361 winning %. If Shanny has a 361 winning % in year #4 with the team on the downswing as opposed to upswing in year #4, I'd think its time for him to go.

When he challenged the play on Thanksgiving, not knowing the rules, he probably cost his team the game. Detroit press is all over him of late on clock management and how he manages games in the 4th quarter.

[Oldfan]

...I think anyone who reads the entire OP can get the gist of where OF is going without coming to the conclusion that he wants everyone to be grumpy and angry. But honestly, a lot of people either don't make it that far or are so locked in on the term that they fail to see the greater meaning...

I try to make my titles attention grabbers that arouse curiosity but still reflect the content. I dive into controversial topics and pick a side; and, even when I agree with it, I never ever preach to the choir of popular opinion. There are enough other members covering that audience.

I think I do well explaining myself, but I often realize that I could have done better once the replies start coming in. Of the people who seem not to understand me, there are two groups: those who honestly don't understand and those who pretend not to understand. With experience, it isn't hard to separate them and deal with them appropriately.

[Trinidon]

I wish the Ben's Chili Bowl was on the first level.

Amen to that!

[Oldfan]

I'll give Schwartz a plus that Danny and Vinny interviewed him and decided not to hire him. Considering I don't trust neither of their judgement.

But Schwartz has mostly been a failure at least record wise with the Lions. He's in year #4 now, 361 winning %. If Shanny has a 361 winning % in year #4 with the team on the downswing as opposed to upswing in year #4, I'd think its time for him to go.

When he challenged the play on Thanksgiving, not knowing the rules, he probably cost his team the game. Detroit press is all over him of late on clock management and how he manages games in the 4th quarter.

There are three things I liked about Schwartz

1) He has solid NFL experience; 2) he doen't strike me as highly egotistical and 3) he's exceptionally bright. With those qualities, he will listen to his assistants, recognize good advice when he hears it, and change his mind when necessary.

I don't know the inside scoop on Detroit. I don't know how much credit o blame to give him, but I would hire him to coach my football team.