Thoughts of a Negative Poster

[Bang]

Ten years of mediocrity with full control of the Broncos is solid past performance evidence the Mike Shanahan wouldn't be the guy you would expect to take you to the top in the NFL. That hiring alone should be enough to tell you that Snyder's sights were not aimed that high.

OK, so one sentence of my post is all you brought back. ( a sentence i deleted, since it seeed to be counterproductive to the discourse.)

i'd address your comment, but i already did, after that first sentence. You may have read before i finished editing. (I'm a serial editor.)

~Bang

[Oldfan]

I can't find it now, but did find some comical Zorn threads But if you were dead on, please repost the link

It was Om's thread. But you said I was wrong. You shouldn't need the thread to tell me what I was wrong about.

Take a stab. I promise not to laugh... much.

---------- Post added December-13th-2012 at 11:32 PM ----------

OK, so one sentence of my post is all you brought back.

i'd address your comment, but i already did, after that first sentence.

~Bang

That one sentence should be enough.

[Bang]

That one sentence should be enough.

Yeah, thanks anyway.

I mean really, if you're just going to ignore what people say, it's no wonder people get sick of your threads.

~Bang

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Ten years of mediocrity with full control of the Broncos is solid past performance evidence the Mike Shanahan wouldn't be the guy you would expect to take you to the top in the NFL. That hiring alone should be enough to tell you that Snyder's sights were not aimed that high.

Oldfan, after 2009 who would have been a hire that demonstrated that Snyder's goal was to be the best team in the league? Whether you agree with the hire, isn't it feasible that Snyder believed he was getting a guy who might do that? After all, he hired the only available coach with 2+ rings. You can believe he did a poor job identifying the right man, but you can't really discern intent.

[Bang]

Oldfan, after 2009 who would have been a hire that demonstrated that Snyder's goal was to be the best team in the league? Whether you agree with the hire, isn't it feasible that Snyder believed he was getting a guy who might do that? After all, he hired the only available coach with 2+ rings. You can believe he did a poor job identifying the right man, but you can't really discern intent.

Oh yes he can. He can logically deduce what is in someone's head.

Based on careful consideration, Snyder decided to spend 35 million bucks on a name, and mediocrity.

It makes perfect sense, especially when viewed through a navel.

~Bang

[chipwhich]

It was Om's thread. But you said I was wrong. You shouldn't need the thread to tell me what I was wrong about.

Take a stab. I promise not to laugh... much.

Can you post the link or are you not comfortable with that

[Oldfan]

Oldfan, after 2009 who would have been a hire that demonstrated that Snyder's goal was to be the best team in the league? Whether you agree with the hire, isn't it feasible that Snyder believed he was getting a guy who might do that? After all, he hired the only available coach with 2+ rings. You can believe he did a poor job identifying the right man, but you can't really discern intent.

I don't keep tabs on the GM prospects or the hotshot young coaches. But, if none were available, he might have given short-term contracts to younger men who were not proven mediocre performers. If Snyder wasn't going to give Shanahan full control, then the two rings might have influenced him.

But, if you are looking for a racehorse with the potential to win stakes races, you look for a three-year old who shows promise. You don't expect a 5-year old with a mediocre racing record to suddenly blossom.

[DogofWar1]

And is still ultimately just a guess.

An opinion.

Which can be either right or wrong.

And as you like to say, can you show me exactly where Dan Snyder ever said he only wanted a big name to bring the Redskins up to mediocrity?

I can show you lots of quotes where he says he wants to win a Super Bowl, so we KNOW he wants to do that.

But is there any proof he only wanted a name so the Redskins could just break even?

Because it really doesn't make any sense to me. That's a lot of money to spend on such a lousy prospect and low expectation.

7 million a year to bring a name and mediocrity?

This makes sense?

~Bang

Don't forget that Snyder has spent money likes he wants to win (and/or like a drunk guy at a strip). I guarantee that if there wasn't a cap our payroll would be inflated like the Yankees.

Snyder wants to win badly. If he was purely in it to make a good show, he wouldn't have gone of that spending spree in the early 2000s. He wouldn't have shelled out obscene amounts of money for high profile free agents like Haynesworth, Archuleta, Sanders, etc. etc. WE ALL KNOW THE LIST! (*starts crying*) He would have gone the route of the Bucs, spending as little as possible on the roster.

Instead, he was so willing to spend money that we had to dish out 170+M just to get to some level of normalcy when the uncapped year happened.

He wouldn't also get so emotionally involved with the team. Remember in '08 when he was freaking out because we were 3-1 or something. Or just a couple weeks ago when he was saying how much he hated the Giants. Snyder is a fan and loves this team as much as any of us do. He's a business man, and you can see that, but he's a fan.

And while we sometimes disagree on decisions as fans, we all *should* not question each other's desire to see the team be the best (it happens sometimes but it shouldn't), and we should equally not question Snyder's desire to see the team be the best.

Again, the problem is figuring out the right people to get you there, he has had trouble with that part in the past.

[Oldfan]

Can you post the link or are you not comfortable with that

I don't want to waste my time.

That argument in that thread was not about whether Norv was a good coach. My argument was that, at that particular time, Norv was the best fit for the Chargers because they wanted continuity with the offensive scheme that Norv created in San Diego in LT's rookie year. Norv had to be given the HC position in order to take him away from the Niners. Norv was basically an OC with a HC title.

The Chargers had to replace seven coaches. Marty basically fire himself and two other coaches got HC positions. Norv did what they expected of him. The offense flourished until A.J. Smith's luck ran out. Injuries out-paced the new talent.

---------- Post added December-14th-2012 at 12:14 AM ----------

Oh yes he can. He can logically deduce what is in someone's head.

Based on careful consideration, Snyder decided to spend 35 million bucks on a name, and mediocrity.

7 mil a year is chump change DEs make 10 mil average.

[DogofWar1]

7 mil a year is chump change DEs make 10 mil average.

For coaches that's a lot though. Shanahan is tied for 2nd highest paid coach in the NFL, behind Belichick, who gets 7.5M.

http://www.therichest.org/sports/highest-paid-nfl-coaches/

[Oldfan]

...And while we sometimes disagree on decisions as fans, we all *should* not question each other's desire to see the team be the best (it happens sometimes but it shouldn't), and we should equally not question Snyder's desire to see the team be the best..

Your analogy doesn't work. We fans don't have the profit motive to seduce us.

The way I look at it. I can suspect being number one isn't Dan's goal or I can suspect he's a dimwit -- because the Shanahan and Allen hires don't make sense in that context. They both had a decade to show the kind of potential needed to do that job and couldn't cut it.

[KCClybun]

I don't keep tabs on the GM prospects or the hotshot young coaches. But, if none were available, he might have given short-term contracts to younger men who were not proven mediocre performers. If Snyder wasn't going to give Shanahan full control, then the two rings might have influenced him.

So basically, you have no idea who could've done a better job that Mike Shanahan and Bruce Allen, you just know that they were terrible choices because of some arbitrary goal you've set of having every aspect of the Redskins be like the Belichick-led Patriots.

And what you described pretty much explains Jim Zorn, and we saw what happened there.

[Oldfan]

So basically, you have no idea who could've done a better job that Mike Shanahan and Bruce Allen..

That's exactly right and there's no reason that I need to know.

you just know that they were terrible choices

Right again.

because of some arbitrary goal you've set of having every aspect of the Redskins be like the Belichick-led Patriots.

Another strawman.

And what you described pretty much explains Jim Zorn, and we saw what happened there.

i see no connection at all to Jim Zorn.

[brandymac27]

Oldfan, what improvements do you feel Mike has made this year? Do you feel like some of the mediocrity that you feel about his career in general will eventually be overshadowed in the long run by these improvements?

[Mad Mike]

I don't keep tabs on the GM prospects or the hotshot young coaches. But, if none were available, he might have given short-term contracts to younger men who were not proven mediocre performers.

That would have been THE MOST MORONIC move possible. We tried the up-and-comer route. That's how we got Spurrier and Zorn. What this team needed was a proven, mature, experienced leader with the clout to bring in good assistants and free agents, and get the zoo that this team had become under control.

But, if you are looking for a racehorse with the potential to win stakes races, you look for a three-year old who shows promise. You don't expect a 5-year old with a mediocre racing record to suddenly blossom.

Aside from your idiotic assessment of Shannahan as a "proven mediocre performer" (a statement virtually EVERY head coach in the NFL would laugh you out of the room for) , your comparison of a football coach to a racehorse is mind numbingly stupid. Race horses DO NOT use intelligence, wisdom, and leadership to win races, they run, something not required of head coaches in the NFL.

Head coaches DO "blossom" with age. Tom Coughlin had FAR less success in Jacksonville than Shanahan in Denver before moving to a new team and winning two Superbowls. And while outsiders (including myself) panned Bill Belichick for his time with the browns (watch a football life to see what real respected football minds say about that) He went to New England and took a fast track to the hall of fame.

But I'm done here. You exist in your own alternate universe and it is painfully clear you have no intention of leaving your comfortable fantasy world.

[JCSMCPCCrskins]

Your analogy doesn't work. We fans don't have the profit motive to seduce us.

The way I look at it. I can suspect being number one isn't Dan's goal or I can suspect he's a dimwit -- because the Shanahan and Allen hires don't make sense in that context. They both had a decade to show the kind of potential needed to do that job and couldn't cut it.

If you're willing to suspect he could just be a dimwit than you have to admit the possibility he could want to win a superbowl more than anything, but isnt smart enough to pick the right staff. No?

[KCClybun]

i see no connection at all to Jim Zorn.

But, if none were available, he might have given short-term contracts to younger men who were not proven mediocre performers.

That's Jim Zorn.

[Oldfan]

Oldfan, what improvements do you feel Mike has made this year? Do you feel like some of the mediocrity that you feel about his career in general will eventually be overshadowed in the long run by these improvements?

I'd need the time to write about three pages to cover that topic. Briefly, RG3 is the best QB who ever played the game, IMO. But, there are lots of question marks: how long will he stay healthy? How much support will he need? Right now, Shanahan is using Robert's wheels to mask O-line weaknesses. How long will that last?

As great as he is, we paid a high price for RG3. The more we use his wheels, the more risk we take of injury.

I don't think RG3 will be enough to break us free of the mediocre level. I think Shanahan will need big drafts over the next couple of years to get us there. He will need to do better than he has in past years.

[DogofWar1]

Your analogy doesn't work. We fans don't have the profit motive to seduce us.

Every owner in the NFL has a profit motive. That doesn't automatically mean they aren't fans, or that they don't care about making their team #1.

Snyder gets emotional about this team. He gets giddy when they win and frustrated when they lose. He shows more emotion than most other owners. Sure, he's a business guy, and quite possibly a greedy business guy, but unless he's also a sociopath faking emotions, he's also a fan.

And I'm not going to question a fan's desire to see his team be number 1.

If you think he's a dimwit, that's fine, that's an opinion, and prior to 2010 I'd probably have agreed with you. He's made some boneheaded moves. But to accuse a fan of not wanting to see his team be #1, I think the burden of proof lies on you to prove that. And him simply having a profit motive is circumstantial evidence, not hard proof.

[KCClybun]

Briefly, RG3 is the best QB who ever played the game, IMO.

The irony of a thread calling for more perspective and objectivity when the OP makes a comment like this, however well Robert may be playing, should not be lost on anyone...

[terpskins10]

The irony of a thread calling for more perspective and objectivity when the OP makes a comment like this, however well Robert may be playing, should not be lost on anyone...

Oh god please don't turn this into another QB evaluation thread. lol

[KCClybun]

Oh god please don't turn this into another QB evaluation thread. lol

Oh I know why he supposedly thinks that. I just think his reasoning for thinking it is flawed. To be very, very, very polite.

[Mad Mike]

I lied. One last thing...

Speaking of Belichick and Shannahan...

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/dec/8/mike-shanahan-and-bill-belichick-respect-the-other/?page=all

Mike Shanahan spent the 2009 season studying the NFL in ways he never had before. It was, after all, the first time he was out of coaching since 1974. He wanted to take advantage of the opportunity so he’d be sharper than ever when he took his next gig. He watched as many games as he could and sought the knowledge of the coaches he respects most. His path that summer led to the New England Patriots and his friend, coach Bill Belichick.

Combined, they have eight Super Bowl rings. Belichick’s 186 wins are the most of any active coach. Shanahan’s 164 are second. Shanahan will try to close that gap Sunday while Belichick looks to widen it when the Washington Redskins host the surging Patriots. “I think we’ve watched each other through the years,” Shanahan said. “We know what type of people that we try to get on our football team, what’s your makeup going to be. I know that he’s watched me. It’s been fun to talk about over a couple beers or dinner, something like that.”

http://nesn.com/2011/12/bill-belichick-mike-shanahan-share-beers-plenty-of-super-bowl-success/

Belichick has been in the NFL since 1975, and Shanahan made his debut in the league in 1984. They're 8-8 against one another, and Shanahan has a 5-3 edge in games when both were the head coach (all of which involved Shanahan's Broncos and Belichick's Patriots). Their biggest duel came in Super Bowl XXI, when Belichick was the defensive coordinator for the Giants in their 39-20 victory against the Broncos, who employed Shanahan as the offensive coordinator. Shanahan, though, has won his other two playoff meetings with Belichick, including their only matchup as head coaches in the 2005 divisional round.

"proven mediocre performer" indeed.

[elkabong82]

Your analogy doesn't work. We fans don't have the profit motive to seduce us.

The way I look at it. I can suspect being number one isn't Dan's goal or I can suspect he's a dimwit -- because the Shanahan and Allen hires don't make sense in that context. They both had a decade to show the kind of potential needed to do that job and couldn't cut it.

Since you keep bringing this point up, I will bring back up my point that Belichick and Pioli had a decade of mediocrity as well when they were hired by the Patriots. By your logic Kraft didn't want to win a Superbowl or be number one, and could not likely achieve such by hiring mediocre coaches. By your standards you would not have hired Belichick and Pioli in 2000 for the Patriots even though you said that you regard the Patriots as the #1 team in the NFL.

1991-95, Browns HC, 36-44 record. 1 playoff win. 1996 assistant coach, DB coach with Pats under Parcells, Superbowl appearance and loss. How much was due to Parcells though, one would wonder when determining whether or not to hire Belichick (just like Crennel and McDaniels did not work outwell later as HCs). 1997-99 asst. coach and DC under Parcells with Jets, 1 playoff win. And then there was the debacle where Beklichick was supposed to take over as HC of the Jets, then resigned and immediately went to the Pats, and the whole ordeal cost the Pats a 1st round pick.

Sorry, but under the standards you have set Oldfan, I can't believe you would hire Belichick in 2000 with that kind of background, nor Pioli who basically followed him and shares those records. Shanahan at least had 2 Superbowl wins prior. You also seem to exclude the possibility that Shanahan learned from his mistakes in Denver nor do you seem to consider the time Shanahan spent between coaching gigs observing and learning. Your foregone conclusion that Shanahan can only bring mediocrity means you have already excluded the possibility of the Skins getting to and winning in the playoffs, and that is a negative bias so long as the possibility exists.

[brandymac27]

I'd need the time to write about three pages to cover that topic. Briefly, RG3 is the best QB who ever played the game, IMO. But, there are lots of question marks: how long will he stay healthy? How much support will he need? Right now, Shanahan is using Robert's wheels to mask O-line weaknesses. How long will that last?

As great as he is, we paid a high price for RG3. The more we use his wheels, the more risk we take of injury.

I don't think RG3 will be enough to break us free of the mediocre level. I think Shanahan will need big drafts over the next couple of years to get us there. He will need to do better than he has in past years.

Well, I actually agree with just about everything you posted here. I also think RGIII is one of the best QB's to play the game, but I also think with his athletic ability alone it makes us more than mediocre.

I do get what you mean about our weaknesses and how long Griffin can manage to run this team with them (I also agree the O-line- especially the right side, and the secondary needs some work). One thing I'm sure will happen is that these weaknesses will be addressed, and the team as a whole will eventually be a force to be reckoned with on both sides of the ball.