HTTR24-7: Andrew Luck- Greatness in GIFs

[AsiaticSkinsFan]

Some of those balls have no velocity on them at all

this is the weird thing about Luck, and I noticed it in college.

His doesnt have the quick release like RG3 or Rodgers when the ball just shoots out their hands like a cannon.

His passes sometimes lack zip. I am convinced it is something mechanical because sometimes that ball is fired into a window, but other times it comes out like a floater. Its weird because no one talks about this in the media.

[Riggo'sRangers]

The answer on th OC is varied. There are certainly Colts fans that are unhappy with Arians offense - including me. The knock specifically being that he has no commitment to the run game, misuses the limited running talent the team has, doesn't involve the TE enough, takes way too many shots down the field (Luck often has no short outlet to go to), Luck is taking to many hits on constant 5 & 7 step drops w/ a very poor O line, and he coaches Luck to run as little as possible. There is certainly a concern (among some) that he could turn Luck into a Bret Favre type TD chaser - which is not what anyone wants.

But there are also special circumstances. Arians worked with Manning as a rookie and he had a very high number of INTs as well. Arians also worked with Big Ben as a rookie and he's considered elite as well. So regardless of the INT numbers, Arians has proven success working with rookies. The idea primarily being that Luck (like manning) is given the ball and told to make a play. Their failures are learning experiences that accelerate their curve. If you look at Mannings career it seemed to work pretty well. Same coach, same fan base so he is given some leeway. The reality is that Luck has been much more impressive as a rookie than Manning was. Of course it's also easy to pass now days.

Another factor is Arians is also serving as HC while Pagano is battling Lukemia. The team and fans have rallied together and you'll likely see very little criticism of anyone within the "Colts family" this year.

The primary thing is the team went 2-14 last year and was universally predicted to end up with a top 5 pick this year. What the hell do Colts fans have to be upset about? The name of the game is wins right? Regardless of some of the ridiculous assertions you read on message boards, the Colts were a horrible team last year and are still a bad team. Yet they have 8 wins and have a great shot at the playoffs. Wins matter not INTs, and the Colts have won. The Colts have a great record in one possession games despite having 6 rookies (including the QB) as major contributors to the offense. Most Skins fans wont give Indy any credit, but that is extremely unusual and bodes very well for the future. Not only is Luck getting better, but 6 players on the offense will take the huge leap next year that players make after their first year. Couple that with the most cap space in the league next year, and colt fans are to happy to start a "fire Arians" petition. Basically, Skins fans seem more concerned about Lucks INTs than Colts fans are. We've seen an elite QB developed and know the drill. INTs are great when discussing the ROY, but I'm more worried about Lucks long term development than his this year stats - other than wins. And even then, the Colts aren't winning a superbowl this year, so development is more important.

As to the GM - do you realize this is Grigsons first year? That the a colts gutted the team after last year? That they have something like $34 million in dead cap space this year from the old regime? That his rookie class (not just luck) has been considered excellent? And most importantly, that he inherited a 2-14 team that is now 8-4? Colts fans think Grigsons should be a favorite for executive of the year - not fired.

And who the hell says Luck is being held back? You realize there are more important things than ROY right. Luck is throwing the ball something like 41 times a game. He's asked to throw deep constantly with a poor oline and no running game for effective play action. No one considers that being held back. Quite the contrary, Luck is being thrown to the wolves. If there is criticism its that he's asked to do to much. And there is not a single colts fan that is less than thrilled with his progress. I'm intrigued by what the skins are doing, but I wouldn't want the colts doing it - even if they had RGIII instead of Luck.

The argument many Colts fans would make is if anyone is being held back long term it's RGIII. Running the read option certainly has helped RGIII transition quickly. However, how effective is it in 3rd & long and the two minute drill? Those are extremely important situations for QBs. It has appeared to me, in the games I have saw, that the skins have struggled in those situations. The stats agree on 3rd and long. Haven't seen any stats on 2 minute drill to see if it backs up what I've saw. The other thing is that most of the passes I've seen from RGIII are short (IIRC correctly he leads the league in passes at or behind the LOS) or wide open. I don't say all that to down play what RGIII has done - he's certainly impressive - I say it in the context of long term development. If the read option is truly a new NFL offense that will be unstoppable long term, then great for skin fans and you have nothing to worry about. If, like I believe, the read option will become less (not un) effective as a base offense over time, then IMO RGIII would have benefitted from throwing more from traditional formations. Even if the read option remains extremely effective, I'd argue that RGIII is already so efficient at running it that, IMO, he would benefit from doing more work from traditional pro style offense. The point being that, like the Colts, the Skins won't win a Super Bowl this year. The point would be to get your superstar QB exposed to as many situations as possible before you have a realistic shot. Of course that's my opinion and I don't expect Skins fans to agree. I guess the short answer to why colts fans aren't clamoring for the Shanahans is because they just wouldn't want them. Personally, from the small sampling, I love Grigson and Pagano. And I'm content with Arians because of his track record - although he also worked with Tim Couch

:logo: The fact that you are on a Redskins board defending Luck is very telling. Nice selected info. Slanted for your uses, but parts are somewhat entertaining. I don't feel the need to critique it and break you down-not worth it because I have zero interest in Luck, ROY, or whatever agenda you are seeking affirmation of. Share your insight with you brethren. They will eat it up. We love our quarterback and (myself at least) don't give a flying **** about Luck. That rhymed....nice. Anyway, for myself, go share your breakdown with ones that care. I don't, and have typed more than intended. Happy wishes and go enjoy your quarterback as we love ours. HTTR

[AsiaticSkinsFan]

Wasn't Luck supposed to be the one that should be making less mistakes because he was in a pro-style offense in college?

I'm really starting to think the whole Luck debate that analysts are bringing up is just to create competition so fans can have something to debate and continue to create hits on their sites. Deep down in their hearts, I believe most analysts that are stating Luck has had a better year than RG3 don't truly believe it.

tbh, I feel pundits have to be "right." What that means is that these guys will wedge and hammer their side of an argument in because they have to be right.

We are seeing that this year with Cam Newton and how media members felt pre-draft. They didnt mention it last year, but now that he is struggling, they feel they are justified in their original take.

Same is true with Luck. The media members have pegged Luck as a generational QB since his freshman year in college. Luck may eventually be that, idk, but this year he has not been close.

---------- Post added December-8th-2012 at 08:49 PM ----------

Remember the same media has been high on Luck ever since the kid was a sophomore in college. I'm not sure if they want to look bad and be wrong about how Luck would come in and dominate the NFL like he was supposed to, but instead a different QB is doing that.

yup

[rm1369]

:logo: The fact that you are on a Redskins board defending Luck is very telling. Nice selected info. Slanted for your uses' date=' but parts are somewhat entertaining. I don't feel the need to critique it and break you down-not worth it because I have zero interest in Luck, ROY, or whatever agenda you are seeking affirmation of. Share your insight with you brethren. They will eat it up. We love our quarterback and (myself at least) don't give a flying **** about Luck. That rhymed....nice. Anyway, for myself, go share your breakdown with ones that care. I don't, and have typed more than intended. Happy wishes and go enjoy your quarterback as we love ours. HTTR[/quote']

Yep - just like most boards. A few guys interested in discussion and a bunch that want to slap each other on the back an say how great they are. I answered a question directed at colts fans. If your not interested in what I got to say then STFU and ignore it. I'm on a skins forum because I'm interested in discussion and different (informed or at least unhomeristic) view points. Grow the **** up.

[Jumbo]

Yep - just like most boards. A few guys interested in discussion and a bunch that want to slap each other on the back an say how great they are. I answered a question directed at colts fans. If your not interested in what I got to say then STFU and ignore it. I'm on a skins forum because I'm interested in discussion and different (informed or at least unhomeristic) view points. Grow the **** up.

And now you're not on a skins board (for a week). If you care, it shouldn't be hard to figure out why--start with the sticky thread at the top of ATN, and then read rule 5. Or don't.

[KCClybun]

Ah, he got banned before I could tell him he was totally wrong about Arians working with Big Ben as a rookie. Arians was a wide receivers coach; Ken Wisenhunt was the offensive coordinator and Mark Whipple was the quarterback coach.

I don't know if Redskins fans would be so happy if RG3 was throwing that many interceptions but we were still winning. In fact I'd imagine quite the opposite.

[AirMayo21]

One criticism of Griffin/praise of Luck I don't understand is that Griffin doesn't throw enough. Griffin on average throws about 25 times a game, whereas the Lucks/Bradys/Rodgers throw like 50-60. I don't know about you guys but I'd rather my quarterback be throwing less than 60 times a game. I feel if you can win throwing less, then more power to you. Claiming Griffin isn't as good because he throws just as many touchdowns and a quarter as many picks in just half as much throws is ridiculous. If anything thats what makes him ten times better than any single quarterback in the league at the moment.

[NOtoDC]

^^^ Those guys don't really have a run game. I honestly don't think out o line is really to just air it out like that. But i think the "pure passer" bias is something the purist aren't really ready to give Griff.

[Laron Burgundy]

The Colts were one of the top teams for a long ass time. Drafting late coupled with drafting poorly (Tony Ugoh, Anthony Gonzalez, Jerry Hughes, Mike Pollack, etc) slowly eroded the talent on the team. It was winning on the back of manning. Once they lost a player that is in the conversation for GOAT time they crumbled. They had a **** o line, a **** defense, and a **** running game. Manning covered it all. It's really not all that hard to understand. The suggestion the team tanked is pure ignorance. Apparently Irsay cared so little about winning that he paid the best FA QB available (Kerry Collins) 8 million gaurenteed to come out of retirement and try to compete. Collins sucks, but there aren't typically many good QB options sitting waiting for a call. So if Irsay didn't tank who did? The GM and son who got ran out of town? The coaching staff that all got fired? The players who all got released? Pure ignorance. The colts gutted everything related to the team. New GM, new coaching staff, new offensive system, and they switched the D from a 4-3 to a 3-4. They have 4 above average players remaining from that 2010 season - Wayne, Mathis, Freeney, and Bethea. And Freeney and Mathis are trying to make the transition from 4-3 DE to 3-4 OLB. 5 of Lucks top 7 targets are rookies. But hey, other than that your right its obvious they tanked to get Luck and have just plugged him in to the same team Manning had. The same team that went to two Superbowls. Contrary to what I keep reading here, everyone expected the Colts to suck. They were almost unanimously considered a lock for a top 5 pick. But it doesn't fit the story does it? So now Luck has great receivers, good online, good run game, and good d. Couple that with a last place schedule and everyone new the colts would be in the drivers seat for a wild card. Right? ****, they'd be undefeated if Luck was half way decent. It's so obvious he's dragging this great team down.

The rest is so ridiculous it isn't worth responding to.

Wrong, I guarantee you the GM and coaching staff thought they had more leeway because of 10 years of playoffs. Also note the two late wins (zomg the team is improving!). Note, too, they didn't put Orlovsky in til what, week 11? Painter was perhaps the worst starting qb in the league, but I DARE you to say he was much worse than Gabbert and that your team was less talented than Jacksonville. Beyond that, why wait so long to put Orlovsky in? You went 2-3 with Orlovsky on THE TOUGHEST PART OF YOUR SCHEDULE. Don't get me wrong, Orlovsky is not the answer, he's a below average qb similar to guys we've had like Jason Campbell and Rex Grossman, but you guys damn sure looked like a 7-9 team with him in.

You're right, everyone expected the Colts to suck because we had let last year create a mirage. No, the Colts team aren't nearly as deep as the Texans or Patriots, but I think you guys got 8 new starters from free agency alone, and quite a few rookies (I realize they are just rookies, but they are, for the most part, upgrades too), but you guys weren't like the 2007 dolphins or 2006 lions (I think those are the correct years).

Those teams were atrocious from the top down, not even Peyton could have led them to the playoffs. Lions had who? Calvin Johnson and Ernie Sims? Sims wasn't even that much above average. Dolphins had CLEO LEMON as their qb. Their best players were an oft-injured Ronnie Brown and old Joey Porter and Jason Taylor. You can not possibly even begin to argue that last year's colts were on par with those 2-14 teams. On your roster you had Wayne, Garcon, Clark, Tamme, Brown, Vinatieri, McAfree, Bethea, Angerer, Wheeler, Ernie Sims (lol), Mathis, Freeney and Castonzo. Those players aren't all all-stars but they are all legitimate average or above average starters in this league. Now go back and look at those ACTUAL 2-14 teams and tell me how many players were starters for another team or remained starters on there own team for long. I bet both of those teams combined don't have HALF what the Colts had last year. It's a joke when people want to call the Colts talent-poor, you're talent-average.

[Ynot]

One criticism of Griffin/praise of Luck I don't understand is that Griffin doesn't throw enough. Griffin on average throws about 25 times a game, whereas the Lucks/Bradys/Rodgers throw like 50-60. I don't know about you guys but I'd rather my quarterback be throwing less than 60 times a game. I feel if you can win throwing less, then more power to you. Claiming Griffin isn't as good because he throws just as many touchdowns and a quarter as many picks in just half as much throws is ridiculous. If anything thats what makes him ten times better than any single quarterback in the league at the moment.

Plus RGIII would through more but our Defense stays on the field way to long.... The games we lost the main reason was we never got the chance to have a game winning drive as the opposing offense keep the ball...

Plus we seem to always have a bad defense converting 3 downs in the first quarter so our possessions are limited. Most of those other teams also run hurry up offenses...

Our Defense gets better we will have more plays and more passes

[Lavarleap56]

I think it comes down to voters belief in the read option as a long term offense. Guys that believe its a long term viable offense will vote RGIII. Those that believe it will be "figured out" will vote Luck.

..... You do realize we don't run the read option that much right? People assume just because we are in Pistol that we are running read option. Not the case.

FACT: Skins are running Mike Shanahans Traditional offense out of the pistol formation. I really wish people would get that through their heads.

From our convo earlier.. which interception are you talking about? not sure we are talking about the same one.

[JaimeDeCurry]

..... You do realize we don't run the read option that much right? People assume just because we are in Pistol that we are running read option. Not the case.

FACT: Skins are running Mike Shanahans Traditional offense out of the pistol formation. I really wish people would get that through their heads.

I wish more people would get this. We're running the exact same offense that we were last year, just out of a different primary formation. You can see it with every run, every playaction pass. It's the exact same as it was last year, our backfield just lines up differently to give defenses the struggle of knowing that anything can come of it. The media keeps eschewing this nonsense that we're running a "college" or "gimmick" offense. It's not at all - it's the same offense that made Matt Schaub and Andre Johnson prolific in Houston combined with the perfected zone running from Denver, not some triple offense Wing-T nonsense like we saw in the Army-Navy game today. This is very much a pro offense, and is cutting through pro defenses left and right.

[terrifNick21]

One criticism of Griffin/praise of Luck I don't understand is that Griffin doesn't throw enough. Griffin on average throws about 25 times a game, whereas the Lucks/Bradys/Rodgers throw like 50-60. I don't know about you guys but I'd rather my quarterback be throwing less than 60 times a game. I feel if you can win throwing less, then more power to you. Claiming Griffin isn't as good because he throws just as many touchdowns and a quarter as many picks in just half as much throws is ridiculous. If anything thats what makes him ten times better than any single quarterback in the league at the moment.

John Elway in 12 games the 1998 Super Bowl year. 210/356 58.9% 2806 yards 22 TDs 10 INTs

Robert Griffin III in 12 games this season. . 218/325 67.1 % 2559 yards 17 TDs 4 INTs

Eerie comparison.

He throws enough. People just want to find something to ***** about.

[Laron Burgundy]

The offense is definitely different from last year, and we use play action more than any other team, but I don't think you can call it a gimmick offense when 12 games into the seasons teams still can't stop it. Wildcat is a gimmick (and I would actually love to see us run it once or twice, but for runs rather than trick passes). Now, does the system work unlike most teams in the league? Absolutely, but that's because we have a qb unlike any other team in the league. Very few teams could find as much success with confusion as we do.

The sad thing is, because RG3 is a generational talent, I doubt, far in the future when his career is over, that we could run this same offense without a similarly gifted athlete. I don't think Vince Young or Terrelle Pryor could even remotely run this offense, and Cam wouldn't enjoy the same success as he can't exploit a breakdown of outside contain like RG3 can. Perhaps, at one time, Vick may have been able to run this at a competent level, but again we're talking about a top pick kind of talent.

[Lavarleap56]

The offense is definitely different from last year, and we use play action more than any other team, but I don't think you can call it a gimmick offense when 12 games into the seasons teams still can't stop it. Wildcat is a gimmick (and I would actually love to see us run it once or twice, but for runs rather than trick passes). Now, does the system work unlike most teams in the league? Absolutely, but that's because we have a qb unlike any other team in the league. Very few teams could find as much success with confusion as we do.

The sad thing is, because RG3 is a generational talent, I doubt, far in the future when his career is over, that we could run this same offense without a similarly gifted athlete. I don't think Vince Young or Terrelle Pryor could even remotely run this offense, and Cam wouldn't enjoy the same success as he can't exploit a breakdown of outside contain like RG3 can. Perhaps, at one time, Vick may have been able to run this at a competent level, but again we're talking about a top pick kind of talent.

It is the same offense out of different formations with some zone read,option, and veer thrown in as a change up. Here is one example that I have of many plays..

2011

2012

Do not be fooled by all the different formations.. The offensive core is the same. Think of it as Shannys offense with some juice every now and then.

[Laron Burgundy]

Obviously a lot of our offense is the same, but let's not jump ahead of ourselves and call it the same offense. It's a variation on the theme, but we use far more misdirection that we did in the past and zone read option plays are, at least as far as I can remember, completely new. Every offense evolves over time, but our offense this year is quite a few iterations different than it was last year. Yes, the blocking and run plays are often the same, but last year we didn't roll out as much as the shanahan's typically have due to Grossman's limitations. Not saying we re-invented the wheel, but we definitely added some new grooves to it.

[Rpredskins]

First of all, we don't only run read option. Secondly, the read option HAS been figured out. Defensive coordinators aren't sitting there wondering how you stop it. They know how. They just don't have fast enough players or flawless enough playcalling to do so. So unless by "figure out" you mean suddenly all the defensive linemen and linebackers in the NFL somehow knock .2 off their 40 time, the read option is going to keep working. The reason it works frequently in college is because the team running it has an athletic QB and the average opponent does not have pro level athletes. NFL defenses were able to stop that style because up until RG3 no QB could do what he does, so every time an offense tried to run the read option (I don't know that many teams even took it past practice), the defense > the QB. Not anymore.

[Hooper]

Luck is awesome.

RG3 is awesome.

They are both class acts who will be battling it out for a long time.

Just be happy we got one of them and didn't reach for Gabbert or Locker.

[Laron Burgundy]

There goes Luck throwing another terrible pick. That's why you don't throw the ball when you're getting sacked unless you're roethlisberger.

[httrcirca87]

really we are holding ourselves back. The penalties are killing us

[Destino]

The turnover machine has two more picks in the first half. If he leads a game winning drive (that digs out of his own hole) we'll here about how great he is again.

[Laron Burgundy]

That 2nd pick didn't really matter though. It was a hail mary at the end of the half, so that'll slide. It's the danger of looking at just stats, an int like that really does not hurt your team in any way.

[Destino]

That 2nd pick didn't really matter though. It was a hail mary at the end of the half, so that'll slide. It's the danger of looking at just stats, an int like that really does not hurt your team in any way.

Every QB has mitigating factors in TDs and INTs.

[ThisOneGoesTo11]

lol wrong thread sorry

[Going Commando]

Luck is going to be fine. He's forcing the ball into coverage and throwing a lot of picks. That's OK. He's playing like a rookie QB.

All except one rookie QB that is.

He's going to be good one day though. He's got the talent and he gets it. He's just not as good as RGIII. RGIII is going to be the best player in the NFL in a little while, Luck will still probably be one of the best QBs in the NFL. He looks like a cross between Jay Cutler and Peyton Manning.