HTTR24-7:Film Sessions: Brandon Banks Missed Oppurtunity VS Dallas

[KingGibbs]

Too bad Al Davis is gone -- we could definitely ship him to Oakland for some picks

There are times when a funny warrants a response. This would be one. Nice and yes I did .

[garyclarkforhall]

This whole conversation should be about the elegant design by Kyle, not about Banks. Whether it was Banks or Aldrick or any receiver with a little bit of speed, that receiver is open because of the play action and design... the same reason Garcon is open. The safety bit to cover Paulson because the LBs sucked up to the run fake.

I'm a little confused on one thing... if everyone identifies this formation as a pass formation, why the hard bite by all the LBs?

[DC9]

This whole conversation should be about the elegant design by Kyle, not about Banks. Whether it was Banks or Aldrick or any receiver with a little bit of speed, that receiver is open because of the play action and design... the same reason Garcon is open. The safety bit to cover Paulson because the LBs sucked up to the run fake.

I'm a little confused on one thing... if everyone identifies this formation as a pass formation, why the hard bite by all the LBs?

Because they've gotten a heavy dose of Morris throughout the game. Also, just because it's a pass formation, doesn't mean we wouldn't try to trip them up. It's all part of coaching and scheme. If the LBs are coached that their assignment is the dive and Robert, they will jump on the dive and play contain on Robert. That's their mission in life. Rob Ryan obviously felt his secondary was talented enough to handle our WR and his front seven would worry about the "college crap."

This is also why it's so important to lean on the run, even when it isn't working. You force this reaction in the defense.

[KingGibbs]

This whole conversation should be about the elegant design by Kyle, not about Banks. Whether it was Banks or Aldrick or any receiver with a little bit of speed, that receiver is open because of the play action and design... the same reason Garcon is open. The safety bit to cover Paulson because the LBs sucked up to the run fake.

I'm a little confused on one thing... if everyone identifies this formation as a pass formation, why the hard bite by all the LBs?

Because like the rest of the world they are in complete awe over RGIII and they want his autograph. For that split second they forget they are on the field and by then it is too late.

[The Trashman]

I think you all are missing one BIG thing. Banks has not muffed any punt or fumbled away any returns this year. IMO, that is a HUGE plus for him. Sure he hasn't broken a long TD. Sure, he hasn't taken it to the house like he used to a couple of years ago but he has been consistent, however lackluster it is. He has been carrying a slight injury all season so hopefully it heals up enough by Monday.

In any case, I still see value for him on this team. Since the offense cannot and will not rely on the defense to keep things tight, Shanahan must find ways and have extensive weapons and speed merchants at his disposal to offset the defense inadequacies. This offense must have the capability to put up 30-45 points every game until we can patch up the defense considerably.

As such, we have to be careful in cutting our weapons loose. You never know when one may get injured and we have to turn to backup players for big play opportunities.

---------- Post added November-27th-2012 at 10:31 AM ----------

BTW, Banks is quicker (laterally & short bursts) than AR.

Banks and AR have similar top end speed, although Banks is slightly faster.

Garcon is just as fast as AR (both ran track in college and have simliar 10.6 100m speed)

[garyclarkforhall]

Because they've gotten a heavy dose of Morris throughout the game. Also, just because it's a pass formation, doesn't mean we wouldn't try to trip them up. It's all part of coaching and scheme. If the LBs are coached that their assignment is the dive and Robert, they will jump on the dive and play contain on Robert. That's their mission in life. Rob Ryan obviously felt his secondary was talented enough to handle our WR and his front seven would worry about the "college crap."

This is also why it's so important to lean on the run, even when it isn't working. You force this reaction in the defense.

DC9, sorry... the undertone of sarcasm is lost in print... there was the discussion on the site that this was an obvious pass formation from Matt Bowen, but I find it interesting that a team that watches film all week long and knows these "keys" are still drawn to the line by great play action, a commitment to the run, and great use of unique running looks, etc.

I just don't think Kyle gets enough credit for what he has done this year despite barely having his best receiver at all, losing his best TE to injury, and still hiding deficiencies on the offensive line, particularly at RT.

[Lavarleap56]

I plan on responding back to everyone this afternoon. I can't get real in depth using my phone keyboard. I do want to clear up a few things ..

1: I didn't review this play to show "Banks is a playmaker"

2: Im not even a Banks guy and I feel he really isnt needed on the roster.

3. All that being said If you use him right he can probably make plays in the perfect situation.

4. Part of wonders if Griff didn't air the ball out due to Banks size. A ball to him has to be perfect so maybe he didn't want to risk it with the CB still close.

[DC9]

DC9, sorry... the undertone of sarcasm is lost in print... there was the discussion on the site that this was an obvious pass formation from Matt Bowen, but I find it interesting that a team that watches film all week long and knows these "keys" are still drawn to the line by great play action, a commitment to the run, and great use of unique running looks, etc.

I just don't think Kyle gets enough credit for what he has done this year despite barely having his best receiver at all, losing his best TE to injury, and still hiding deficiencies on the offensive line, particularly at RT.

Ahh! I was going to say, lol. You're better than that! My bad.

---------- Post added November-27th-2012 at 01:02 PM ----------

4. Part of wonders if Griff didn't air the ball out due to Banks size. A ball to him has to be perfect so maybe he didn't want to risk it with the CB still close.

LL, I'm telling you, I firmly believe that Rob does not like Banks. I think he soured on him after that last pass in the Carolina Game. He looked so mad at Banks... like, dude WTF are you thinking? mad.

[Bang]

-

I just don't think Kyle gets enough credit for what he has done this year despite barely having his best receiver at all, losing his best TE to injury, and still hiding deficiencies on the offensive line, particularly at RT.

I agree with this emphatically, and I think the OP illustrates how much of a threat not only our pounding run game is, but the potential for Griffin to gash the hell out of a defense with his feet.

Banks onthe post looks like that safety may be able to put a hit on him, but Garcon is GONE.

~Bang

[KingGibbs]

I just don't think Kyle gets enough credit for what he has done this year despite barely having his best receiver at all, losing his best TE to injury, and still hiding deficiencies on the offensive line, particularly at RT.

Bingo! Like any OC he has made a few questionable calls (too many options against Cincy) but this offense is putting up numbers we haven't seen around here in years. Any shortfalls by the offense have mostly been lack of execution and the Drop Bowl in Pittsburgh would be the primary example.

[KDawg]

Bingo! .

Please don't use the term "bingo" ever again in a post about an OC

[Lavarleap56]

I liked how they used Banks on this play but didnt want to make a new post about it..

Skins have 88,89,15,16 in as WRs with Banks lined up as RB. Morgan will motion across the formation to form a bunch set. How the CB deals with the motion will declare the coverage to RGIII. CB stays its a form of zone, follows the WR its man.

The CB stays giving Griff a zone look.. That puts the defender at a disadvantage to guarding Banks out of the backfield.

Defender drops a few yards into his zone. Banks is just wide open for a 3rd &4 .

Nice design,Nice route, Nice 3rd down conversion.

[moondog]

Great work again LL, and I'm of the mind that it's Aldrick that's the best speed weapon. You?

Do you think we need/should keep Banks or we have enough sped without him or move to looking at another?

I'm being unusually wishy-washy on it.

Mostly, I think let him go unless he improves focus and ball handling between now and next season.

Also, while I have consistently maintained Kyle has plenty to learn yet and isn't a "genius", do you think we're moving past any doubts of him being a solid OC for us if he chooses to stay?

I have none (doubts). I often want to strangle some of the "unemployed NFL play-calling experts" we have in the game day threads at times.

I think we are still in the early stages of where our offense can go. A few weeks ago, people in here were ****ting the bed all over about our "college gimmicks offense" being worn out already and done.

Then the same crowd is here after Dallas and roasting Ryan for saying the same crap they were posting two weeks earlier.

(again, for the slow, not implying Kyle doesn't have wtf moments as does most any coach)

This is almost exactly how I feel.

Banks may be fast, but I'm willing to bet that Aldrick is just as fast. I'm not going to come out and say we should just cut Banks - he'll be here this year but someone will need to take/earn his roster spot next year. Robinson is just as fast, if not faster and is a MUCH better receiver. There is not a whole lot of reason, in my mind, to not have him on the field running this play instead of Banks. He's much bigger and therefore RG3 does not have to be quite as accurate. I'm not entirely sure why Banks is getting reps on plays like this over Robinson, other than maybe because after the earlier TD Robinson would gain more respect from the defense and they thought that Dallas would sleep on Banks?

But in my opinion, there is little reason not to have Robinson running all the plays that Banks is currently getting. And I believe Paul would fill in nicely on kickoffs, Aldrick on punts if Banks lost his roster spot. And they would do it without fumbling so often.

As for Kyle Shanahan - it is nice finally to not have to constantly defend him from the hordes. My only problem with him has always been his tendency to run tosses and stretch plays on short yardage situations, specifically 3rd down. In that specific part of the gameplan, we should run up the middle/left side behind Lichtensteiger/Williams almost every time (if we choose to run it). But there is no doubt in my mind that Shanahan is a great coordinator and I hope he stays after this year.

[KingGibbs]

Please don't use the term "bingo" ever again in a post about an OC

I shall wash my mouth, er, fingers of that word you've mentioned. My apologies.

[darrelgreenie]

I liked how they used Banks on this play but didnt want to make a new post about it..

Nice design,Nice route, Nice 3rd down conversion.

I agree its a nice play design. I've always thought Kyle did some his best work in designing the passing game. I think this play works just the same with Aldrick back there.

[Lavarleap56]

Great work again LL, and I'm of the mind that it's Aldrick that's the best speed weapon. You?

Agree and think Aldrick will be a special weapon fro RG3 for years to come.

Do you think we need/should keep Banks or we have enough speed without him or move to looking at another?

Banks is a RFA after this season. I think it is tough to bring him back again with the limited production.

I'm being unusually wishy-washy on it.

Mostly, I think let him go unless he improves focus and ball handling between now and next season.

Also, while I have consistently maintained Kyle has plenty to learn yet and isn't a "genius", do you think we're moving past any doubts of him being a solid OC for us if he chooses to stay?

I have none (doubts). I often want to strangle some of the "unemployed NFL play-calling experts" we have in the game day threads at times.

I think we are still in the early stages of where our offense can go. A few weeks ago, people in here were ****ting the bed all over about our "college gimmicks offense" being worn out already and done.

Then the same crowd is here after Dallas and roasting Ryan for saying the same crap they were posting two weeks earlier.

(again, for the slow, not implying Kyle doesn't have wtf moments as does most any coach)

Your post actually made me go back and watch more of the games over and over again.. The crew that hates the " College Offense" is actually not looking hard enough to see what the offense is all about. The knocks on college spread offenses are the "Qb doesn't go through progressions" " half field reads" and so on.

Redskins offense window dresses like its a college offense with the formations and some concepts. Robert and Kyle throw some of that out the window when you really study it. Robert goes more whole field reads than people think, he just does it at a quicker pace than a rookie should be able to.

[KDawg]

You know, something has been driving me nuts... What the hell is a "college" offense?

[Thirtyfive2seven]

thank you again for the awesome breakdown - this is great stuff. What I love most about this is that we finally have a QB not only capable of making the proper read but also with the ability to stick the deep throw perfectly. Great post as usual!

[Lavarleap56]

You know, something has been driving me nuts... What the hell is a "college" offense?

A offense that people have not seen successfully ran consistently in the pros. Comes down to different ways of thinking for me. Some people wont get on board until they see it work over a period of time.

Robert makes this offense a viable threat to the NFL for years to come.

[darrelgreenie]

Your post actually made me go back and watch more of the games over and over again.. The crew that hates the " College Offense" is actually not looking hard enough to see what the offense is all about. The knocks on college spread offenses are the "Qb doesn't go through progressions" " half field reads" and so on.

Yep, people like sound bite analysis. They prefer simplified or generalized analysis that can fit neatly into succinct sound bites even at the cost of accuracy. We occasionaly run some read-option, but we very seldom do it from spread formations which would be more like "college offenses" (not that I think there is anything wrong with spread offense I'm actually in favor of it). To my eye the current offense is very much the traditional Denver WCO, even down to the run/pass ratio. The main bulk of the concepts and even the formations are the same except Griffin takes a couple 2-3 steps back and receives the snap from shallow shotgun thus turning traditional I-Form, Offset-I, Power I, Fullhouse into Pistol formations that I guess people consider "college offense".

[truskinsfan18]

Yep, people like sound bite analysis. They prefer simplified or generalized analysis that can fit neatly into succinct sound bites even at the cost of accuracy. We occasionaly run some read-option, but we very seldom do it from spread formations which would be more like "college offenses" (not that I think there is anything wrong with spread offense I'm actually in favor of it). To my eye the current offense is very much the traditional Denver WCO, even down to the run/pass ratio. The main bulk of the concepts and even the formations are the same except Griffin takes a couple 2-3 steps back and receives the snap from shallow shotgun thus turning traditional I-Form, Offset-I, Power I, Fullhouse into Pistol formations that I guess people consider "college offense".

What do you think is the purpose or reasoning behind Griffin stepping back into a pistol rather than under center as Cutler and Elway did? I still haven't understood how Shanahan has decided to start using Pistol now that he has RG3, and I actually don't even understand what the pistol formation is all about.

[Saqs]

What do you think is the purpose or reasoning behind Griffin stepping back into a pistol rather than under center as Cutler and Elway did? I still haven't understood how Shanahan has decided to start using Pistol now that he has RG3, and I actually don't even understand what the pistol formation is all about.

The reason to run the Pistol is that it gives the ability to have run a power run offense while also providing the ability to pass as if in the shotgun but without removing the ability to run successful PA. The Panthers ran it a bunch last year. You'll start seeing more and more of it. The Giants had Eli in it for the first time against the Packers. The 9ers run it as well.

[Darth Tater]

What do you think is the purpose or reasoning behind Griffin stepping back into a pistol rather than under center as Cutler and Elway did? I still haven't understood how Shanahan has decided to start using Pistol now that he has RG3, and I actually don't even understand what the pistol formation is all about.

The pistol formation basically gives you the power look of a straight I but with many of the features of a shotgun spread. More specifically you add a sweep/trap game threat and the various power dives and off-tackles you get in an I while getting the veer and zone read threats of a shotgun spread and can add in the extra receiver you get from ace back forms.

[garyclarkforhall]

One of its big advantages is that QBs don't have to turn away from the line of scrimmage to conduct play action fakes and it's nearly impossible to run zone read if you have to turn to deliver the ball to the running back.

ZBS teams with athletic QBs will stay in pistol in the future is my opinion.

Purists probably are concerned about snap exchange and ball protection, but I'd honestly prefer to have a snap failure in Pistol where a recovery should almost always be by the offense whereas a bad exchange from center is maybe a 60-40 proposition.

[MartinC]

What do you think is the purpose or reasoning behind Griffin stepping back into a pistol rather than under center as Cutler and Elway did? I still haven't understood how Shanahan has decided to start using Pistol now that he has RG3, and I actually don't even understand what the pistol formation is all about.

I think there are two main reasons we are using a lot of pistol.

1. Its hard to run zone read from under centre - you need your QB to be looking at the DE or OLB he is reading while he is in the act of handing off or not as the case may be and its hard to do that if you have turned to drop from under centre. Zone read is not actually a big part of our offense but the threat of it is and that threat is signaled by us being in pistol.

2. RGIII does not have that much experience in playing under centre and dropping 3-5-7 steps. His footwork and timing in these areas are still a work in progress. He is VERY comfortable operating out of pistol and shotgun and we are accommodating that.

We are already seeing some under centre 3 and 5 step drop passing though and under centre stretch zone running plays. After another full offseason and going into next season I think we will start to see less pistol and more under centre drop backs as we expand the play book and ask RGIII to do more full field read drop back passing and bots of the stretch.