alexey Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2012/11/26/the-gops-read-my-lips-moment/?hpid=z1 Four big-name Republicans have broken with Grover Norquist in recent days, saying they won’t be bound by their Norquist-sponsored pledges to oppose any and all tax increases. The moves by Sens. Lindsey Graham (S.C.), Bob Corker (Tenn.) and Saxby Chambliss (Ga.) and Rep. Peter King (N.Y.) represent the opening steps of a delicate dance for the GOP — and one that could come to define the just-begun talks over the looming “fiscal cliff.” The question from here is whether this represents a simple trial balloon or the beginning of a movement in which a large segment of the GOP embraces a tax increase as an unhappy reality. ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ncr2h Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 Even if you support them breaking their pledges, you have to admit that doing this mere weeks after an election is a slap in the face to voters in their states/districts. They should have come out with this in July so that the voters could actually decide whether they wanted a tax-raiser or not. At least this hopefully means Graham will be primaried. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexey Posted November 26, 2012 Author Share Posted November 26, 2012 Even if you support them breaking their pledges, you have to admit that doing this mere weeks after an election is a slap in the face to voters in their states/districts. They should have come out with this in July so that the voters could actually decide whether they wanted a tax-raiser or not. At least this hopefully means Graham will be primaried. Lots of things are a slap in somebody's face. GOP lost the elections and now some people in there will try to pull it in different directions. The pledge is obviously a problem for anybody who is willing to compromise. Without breaking the pledge, we are to expect either a total cave-in by the Democrats or weeee off the fiscal cliff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 Even if you support them breaking their pledges, you have to admit that doing this mere weeks after an election is a slap in the face to voters in their states/districts. They should have come out with this in July so that the voters could actually decide whether they wanted a tax-raiser or not. At least this hopefully means Graham will be primaried. Err... so how do you feel about the upcoming fiscal cliff? Is there ever a reason for a politician to change his or her position based on an upcoming event like that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popeman38 Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 So wait. If the Reps hold firm on the pledge and refuse to budge, they are responsible for pushing the country over the fiscal cliff? If they reach across the aisle to work with the Dems "mere weeks after an election" to avoid the country falling over the fiscal cliff, they are "slapping voters in the face" and should face a primary challenge because of it? Talk about damned if you do, damned if you don't..... :doh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ncr2h Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 Their voters likely voted for them under the assumption that they would hold true to their word regarding taxes. If these congressmen knew all along that they were going to cave on this issue, then they clearly should have signalled that to the voters before the election that they would seek a compromise to raise taxes in exchange for entitlement reforms. What they did was deceptive and indicative that they do not believe that this is in fact the policy that their constituents want. Imagine that, weeks after being elected to President, Obama started implementing the exact policies that he campaigned against. How would you feel about that? Is that acceptable behavior, or would you feel that he was being deceptive and disrespectful to the electoral process? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 So wait. If the Reps hold firm on the pledge and refuse to budge, they are responsible for pushing the country over the fiscal cliff? If they reach across the aisle to work with the Dems "mere weeks after an election" to avoid the country falling over the fiscal cliff, they are "slapping voters in the face" and should face a primary challenge because of it? Talk about damned if you do, damned if you don't..... :doh: Well, really, once someone signs such a pledge you can already damn them, because indication of absolute thinking like that shows that they're not too bright to begin with. Absolutes don't work. Absolute thinking is totally unproductive. Anyone with a brain knows this. Not only do these people think in such black and white absolutes, they signed a pledge to do so. and if voters voted for them so they would think in absolutes, then they deserve their faces slapped. Because reality hits hard. ~Bang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy8467 Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 Their voters likely voted for them under the assumption that they would hold true to their word regarding taxes. If these congressmen knew all along that they were going to cave on this issue, then they clearly should have signalled that to the voters before the election that they would seek a compromise to raise taxes in exchange for entitlement reforms. What they did was deceptive and indicative that they do not believe that this is in fact the policy that their constituents want.Imagine that, weeks after being elected to President, Obama started implementing the exact policies that he campaigned against. How would you feel about that? Is that acceptable behavior, or would you feel that he was being deceptive and disrespectful to the electoral process? I don't think this part is necessarily true. It seems to me that these congressman are just reacting to the reality of the situation, one that showed Obama getting re-elected by a significant margin based in a large part on his promise to keep the tax cuts for the middle class and let them expire on the top-earners. Had Romney won the election, the Republicans would probably be talking about having a mandate and not feel the need to compromise on the fiscal cliff situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexey Posted November 27, 2012 Author Share Posted November 27, 2012 ...Imagine that, weeks after being elected to President, Obama started implementing the exact policies that he campaigned against. How would you feel about that? Is that acceptable behavior, or would you feel that he was being deceptive and disrespectful to the electoral process? This is exactly what happened when Obama got elected in 2008. No need to use the imagination here. Different people reacted in different ways. Some were indeed shocked and felt betrayed. Some chucked it up to political realities of what is possible and what is not possible. For me personally, it was a combination of disappointment and gratitude for an opportunity to improve my understanding of relationships between political realities, things politicians say, and things politicians do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimboDaMan Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 Imagine that, weeks after being elected to President, Obama started implementing the exact policies that he campaigned against. How would you feel about that? Is that acceptable behavior, or would you feel that he was being deceptive and disrespectful to the electoral process? Don't you think as part of the negotiations on the fiscal cliff that Obama will make some concessions? That he will wind up agreeing to cuts in areas where he has resisted in the past? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.A.C.O.L.B. Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 Even if you support them breaking their pledges, you have to admit that doing this mere weeks after an election is a slap in the face to voters in their states/districts. They should have come out with this in July so that the voters could actually decide whether they wanted a tax-raiser or not. At least this hopefully means Graham will be primaried. 2.of the 4 weren't up for reelection this past election cycle (Graham and Chambliss) so that kinda makes your point moot. And the people have spoken on tax increases. They reelected the president by a pretty large margin and voted Democrat almost across the board. ---------- Post added November-27th-2012 at 11:31 AM ---------- This is exactly what happened when Obama got elected in 2008. No need to use the imagination here. Different people reacted in different ways. Some were indeed shocked and felt betrayed. Some chucked it up to political realities of what is possible and what is not possible. For me personally, it was a combination of disappointment and gratitude for an opportunity to improve my understanding of relationships between political realities, things politicians say, and things politicians do. What policies did Obama implement that he campaigned against? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan T. Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 I read somewhere that some of those guys signed their pledges 16 to 18 years ago. Fiscal realities change over time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 Imagine that, weeks after being elected to President, Obama started implementing the exact policies that he campaigned against. How would you feel about that? Is that acceptable behavior, or would you feel that he was being deceptive and disrespectful to the electoral process? Imagine? Sorry. Had to. Carry on. ---------- Post added November-27th-2012 at 02:02 PM ---------- Well, really, once someone signs such a pledge you can already damn them, because indication of absolute thinking like that shows that they're not too bright to begin with.Absolutes don't work. Absolute thinking is totally unproductive. Anyone with a brain knows this. Not only do these people think in such black and white absolutes, they signed a pledge to do so. and if voters voted for them so they would think in absolutes, then they deserve their faces slapped. Because reality hits hard. ~Bang Only a Sith talks in absolutes. (Which is actually rather ironic, if you think about it.) (Or just bad writing.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubbs Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 Well, really, once someone signs such a pledge you can already damn them, because indication of absolute thinking like that shows that they're not too bright to begin with.Absolutes don't work. Absolute thinking is totally unproductive. Anyone with a brain knows this. Not only do these people think in such black and white absolutes, they signed a pledge to do so. and if voters voted for them so they would think in absolutes, then they deserve their faces slapped. Because reality hits hard. ~Bang You know, your opinion of absolutes seems very... absolutist. Along a similar line of thinking, I once worked with a guy who said that if he were ever a politician, the only pledge he would sign would be a pledge to not sign any other pledges. I'm guessing some comedian has come up with something similar by now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexey Posted November 27, 2012 Author Share Posted November 27, 2012 What policies did Obama implement that he campaigned against? Extending all Bush tax cuts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveFromYellowstone Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 Extending all Bush tax cuts. And do you happen to remember why he did this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexey Posted November 27, 2012 Author Share Posted November 27, 2012 And do you happen to remember why he did this? Yes I believe he did that to prevent some kind of a really terrible thing from happening I think it was this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_Relief,_Unemployment_Insurance_Reauthorization,_and_Job_Creation_Act_of_2010 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.A.C.O.L.B. Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 So anything else? Maybe I read it wrong but it seemed like you were saying that Obama lied and has been a huge disappointment to liberals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 You know, your opinion of absolutes seems very... absolutist. Along a similar line of thinking, I once worked with a guy who said that if he were ever a politician, the only pledge he would sign would be a pledge to not sign any other pledges. I'm guessing some comedian has come up with something similar by now. Good point, and of course there's always exceptions. For example, fascism is wrong, absolutely. Thus proving the rule ~Bang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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