Grading Bruce Allen

[Murphs56]

Thank you. Shanahan's and Allens record is 13-24... As Parcells said- you are what your record says you are.

Yes, but like I mentioned in the other thread, I like the work they've done to get younger and develop a good solid core group of players for the future. However, as a fan, of course it is tough to balance development with wanting to win. They have not done much winning so far

[BDOG510]

I will give him credit for drafting Morris- he's gonna be a perennial Pro Bowler

[rk3025]

We have a fan base that comes and spends money.

If we had wanted a winning team we would have kept Schoenheimer.

[Thinking Skins]

I was really in favor of getting a GM, but with that, I had the expectation of separation of coach and GM duties. As people have stated, there is still some clear overlap between the coach and GM of this team and in my opinion it hurts the franchise. I mean, where is the accountability? Normally GMs are the ones to fire coaches, but is Shanny going to fire Allen if we don't do well? Is Allen going to fire Shanny, the man who got him hired?

What about coaching decisions? Does Dan Snyder need to be the one to tell Shanny that one of his coaches must go? Will Allen be that person?

As far as the draft in itself, like most, its a mixed bag. We've had some late rounders who've played, but we had that with Vinny too. We've signed some free agents, but we had that with Vinny too. I think the thing that I like the most under Mike and Bruce is that the overall age of the team has gotten younger and we're dealing with a lot less retreads and guys who couldn't make it elsewhere. Funny that the positions where we seem to keep doing that (safety, OL) are two of the worse on the team.

And I understand the salary cap penalty excuse, but I don't buy it. People always use the amount of money that Dan Synder spends as truth that he loves this team and wants to win. I measure that desire by commitment to resign key players, like Carlos Rodgers (who likely wouldn't have resigned here, but more because he knew how we treat our own), and developing talent. I compare the Nationals, the Wizards, the Capitals and the Skins and its no comparison of who comes in last in terms of player development. Even the Wizards have abandoned their old ways of trying to buy a championship with a bunch of has been free agents and are building up a farm system. Other teams build through the draft and use free agency as an outliner. It saddens me how much of our team signed here as free agents because it really makes me question their desire. You look at a player like Hall who can be dominant when he wants to be, but he knows that he's not getting benched just for having a bad game against Dez Bryant. We're paying him too much money. Unfortunately, that's the case with a bunch of players on this team, just about our whole starting lineup. But at least with CB, we have guys like Minnefield and Crawford who, I think, if given time could actually compete for playing time - and were able to beat out the other has been's from the roster.

Hopefully, as we increase the competition on the roster, we'll also see an increase in talent, but I have my reservations as long as we're signing has beens as "the starter", which has continued since Snyder purchased the team.

---------- Post added October-9th-2012 at 07:56 AM ----------

As much as I love the free agent signings and drafting that Mike/Bruce have done, I'm still waiting for the product to deliver. It's tough see these other teams like the Vikings, Cardinals, Cinci and San Fran last year, just rise up out of nowhere and play great football. I'm waiting for the year that team is us, but it just never seems to happen. We continue to always wind up on the losing side of close games against good teams...Been happening forever, even with the personnel being completely different from when Shanahan took over

I'm waiting for the day that we hire a coach who's a top coordinator, or a top college coach, give him a try and let him either succeed or fail, and depending on how that goes, either extend him or hire another top notch coordinator or college coach and continue from there. I'm tired of hiring these retread coaches who are supposed to be saviors. But that's what sells tickets. Too bad it doesn't get us victories.

[Geneva]

So, I have heard from many Redskin faithful how BA has done such a great job in the draft, I believe he has done some good things but one area that has not been addressed is in the secondary, this has and is going to be a problem for a some time to come, how do we fix this for next year?

We can't fix this problem in the draft. I believe Bruce wii look hard at the free agency market. Dan will have to dig into his deep pockets again this off season.

However, you can never tell. There may be a sleeper out there in some small college.

[Thinking Skins]

We can't fix this problem in the draft. I believe Bruce wii look hard at the free agency market. Dan will have to dig into his deep pockets again this off season.

However, you can never tell. There may be a sleeper out there in some small college.

So the guys picked in the 2012 draft in the secondary who seem to be contributing (has >= 1 tackle) this year are:

- Round 1, Pick 7 TAM Mark Barron

- Round 5, Pick 143 CAR Josh Norman

- Round 3, Pick 66 MIN Josh Robinson

- Round 1, Pick 10 BUF Stephon Gilmore

- Round 2, Pick 39 STL Janoris Jenkins

- Round 5, Pick 162 NOR Corey White

- Round 2, Pick 48 NWE Tavon Wilson

- Round 4, Pick 123 PHI Brandon Boykin

- Round 1, Pick 29 MIN Harrison Smith

- Round 3, Pick 85 DET Bill Bentley

- Round 1, Pick 6 DAL Morris Claiborne

- Round 3, Pick 80 ARI Jamell Fleming

- Round 3, Pick 94 NYG Jayron Hosley

- Round 3, Pick 65 STL Trumaine Johnson

- Round 5, Pick 139 MIN Robert Blanton

- Round 4, Pick 115 TEN Coty Sensabaugh

- Round 4, Pick 133 GNB Jerron McMillian

- Round 6, Pick 172 SEA Jeremy Lane

- Round 6, Pick 176 JAX Mike Harris

- Round 7, Pick 224 NWE Alfonzo Dennard

And that's not too nice a selection, but maybe its because guys this year just haven't gotten a chance. What about last year's draft?

- Round 1, Pick 5 ARI Patrick Peterson

- Round 5, Pick 154 SEA Richard Sherman

- Round 2, Pick 45 DEN Rahim Moore

- Round 3, Pick 93 CHI Chris Conte

- Round 4, Pick 108 DEN Quinton Carter

- Round 2, Pick 34 BUF Aaron Williams

- Round 2, Pick 50 SDG Marcus Gilchrist

- Round 5, Pick 137 CLE Buster Skrine

- Round 5, Pick 146 WAS Dejon Gomes

- Round 4, Pick 100 BUF Da'Norris Searcy

- Round 1, Pick 27 BAL Jimmy Smith

The Richard Sherman pick really looks interesting because we picked Gomes right before him and he's got 6 career pics, two forced fumbles, and 64 tackles over two years. Plus his size is 6'3 - 195. Maybe the stats are misleading and this guy's a dud. Maybe Gomes is really better than him, but I really think we need to invest more into the draft and get better at getting players to contribute straight out of school.

[Oldfan]

Yes, but like I mentioned in the other thread, I like the work they've done to get younger and develop a good solid core group of players for the future. However, as a fan, of course it is tough to balance development with wanting to win. They have not done much winning so far

When grading what they have done to develop our core, I recommend caution. We Skins fans have been overrating the young talent on our team for as far back as I can remember -- and I go a long way back. It's a tradition.

[chipwhich]

When grading what they have done to develop our core, I recommend caution. We Skins fans have been overrating the young talent on our team for as far back as I can remember -- and I go a long way back. It's a tradition.

This year proves this statement. Our core is vastly overrated. Our defensive talent is underwhelming less Kerrigan. Our offensive talent is a little better. We have a long ways to go.

With that said, we got rid of the "Run and tell Danny" players that were poisoning this franchise for years.

[CTskins]

We could have had that kid from LSU that the boys moved up for but instead we gave away the farm for RG111. Now dont get me wrong I think RG111 is awesome but the price was too high for us. If we could have got him with our #1 then fine but 3 1s and a 2 are too high a price to pay. RG111 is fun to watch but without a defence we will still be a 500. team.

Theoretically, we didn't give up 3 1sts. We got one back, so net-net, we gave up 2 1st and a 2nd. You cannot put a price on a franchise QB in this league, especially if RG3 becomes the player we all hope he will. The Skins are exciting to watch again and they are in every single game. That alone is worth the price of admission each week. I can't tell you how many times I sat down to watch the games last year, knowing the Skins had a zero to slim chance of winning. And when they did win, it was more or less a fluke.

Also after the past few seasons, I'd love a .500 team. At least (and at last) there is hope for years to come.

[newday]

We're building from the inside out. Lines and top 3 positions first -- QB, LT, DE.

We're good on QB, LT and DE (Ryan and Orakpo). If Rak's injury recurs, that would be expensive to replace.

Next year, we need a RT, 2 safeties, CB and tall WR.

Allen will get it done. Needs time and cap space. He's good.

[Commander Adama]

When you consider the mind-boggling mess he inherited and the restrictions he's worked under, I'd say Allen has done an incredible job for us.

I totally agree with you LD

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

What part of "uncapped year" don't you understand?

I understand "uncapped" year perfectly fine. What part of our FO did exactly what they were instructed not to and got hammered for it do you and many others not understand?

I'm not saying it was right. But to act like we were some scapegoat and that our FO had no hand in our cap beating is a bit naive and inaccurate.

Goodell and Mara bent us over. But Bruce and Shanny are the ones that dropped their pants and crossed their fingers.

---------- Post added October-9th-2012 at 12:18 PM ----------

We're building from the inside out. Lines and top 3 positions first -- QB, LT, DE.

We're good on QB, LT and DE (Ryan and Orakpo). If Rak's injury recurs, that would be expensive to replace.

Next year, we need a RT, 2 safeties, CB and tall WR.

Allen will get it done. Needs time and cap space. He's good.

This. I think we are a tackle and one playmaker away on O from having an offense that is good enough to contend for a SB. The youth is there, and hopefully our guys stay healthy.

I'm really disappointed that our FA safeties didn't work out. I really hate it for Meriweather, and I just plain hate Ruh-tard Jackson. Sometimes when you roll the dice, you get burned.

I am a little more concerned about our age on D. It won't be easy to replace Fletcher, but hopefully some of the new guys can step up. I'm really hoping guys like Bernstine and Crawford could turn out to be long term starters for us, that would help out a lot. I hated that Bernstine got hurt, because he would've definitely gotten a shot to show what he can do.

I think Bruce will get it done as well. The youth infusion is just as important an anything else he's done, in my opinion. Get young talent in and let them grow together. Al Mo and RG3 are such a great tandem. I also think that sometimes people dog us for not being competitive sooner, pointing out teams like Detroit, Seattle, etc. I understand their point, but building a team from the ground up that can win a Superbowl is different that building a perennial wild card team. I don't think that any of those teams are good enough to win it all, nor will they be any sooner than we will. That's why I got tired of the "aging vet" strategy of Gibbs. It was good enough to get to the playoffs, but not good enough to make any noise.

I think Bruce has his eye on the prize. Not counting Moss, our offense is less than 26 years old across the board. The biggest piece of the puzzle was the QB, and we got that done. I see good things for us moving forward, I just wish we could swing a few Ws for the fans and the players to make the process less painful for all of us.

[gaskinsfan]

It would be easier to evaluate him if I knew what he did other than pick the uniform colors. It's obvious that Shanny is making the final call on all personnel moves so why blame Allen for the secondary problems?

Agreed... this is Shanny's team for better or worse.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Is Allen going to fire Shanny, the man who got him hired?

Allen cannot fire his boss.

I don't see why this is so difficult: Shanahan has all the power here. He is Joe Gibbs. Allen works for him. The only person who can fire Shanahan is Danny.

[Skinsinparadise]

If you go back to Gibbs One, Joe waged and won the battle for final say on the roster with Bobby Bearthard. Casserly didn't have the final say when Joe coached. I don't believe there's any way Joe could have been convinced to come back without full control. Snyder gave Joe full control and he did the same for Shanahan. Also, he's been very careful to not even give the appearance of interfering with Mike. I don't think he will regress.

The WP did an expose years ago of the decision making structure under Gibbs 2, and the way it was described -- Gibbs and assistant coaches would state their needs, in turn Vinny would give the player recommendations, Gibbs would mostly go along with Vinny's recommendations, Vinny would go to Danny to get his take, they'd discuss, then Vinny and Danny would negotiate the deal/trade.

I just get the impression from those that have commented who have worked with Danny -- that its way too much fun for him to stay out of it unless he has no choice. One reporter who covers this team for 980 said his source told him for example Danny went with Vinny to scout M. Kelly and fell in love with him, some of the Redskins scouts were wary about his injury history but Danny wanted him so they drafted him. You never know this stuff might be wrong but it seems like lot of smoke to the fire -- stuff like Danny liking the idea of acquiring Lance Briggs and trying to talk Gibbs into making the move. Him and Vinny loving Chad Johnson, offering 2 first round picks for him -- thankfully the trade got rejected, etc. Him watching tape with coaches, etc.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

The WP did an expose years ago of the decision making structure under Gibbs 2, and the way it was described -- Gibbs and assistant coaches would state their needs, in turn Vinny would give the player recommendations, Gibbs would mostly go along with Vinny's recommendations, Vinny would go to Danny to get his take, they'd discuss, then Vinny and Danny would negotiate the deal/trade.

I just get the impression from those that have commented who have worked with Danny -- that its way too much fun for him to stay out of it unless he has no choice. One reporter who covers this team for 980 said his source told him for example Danny went with Vinny to scout M. Kelly and fell in love with him, some of the Redskins scouts were wary about his injury history but Danny wanted him so they drafted him. You never know this stuff might be wrong but it seems like lot of smoke to the fire -- stuff like Danny liking the idea of acquiring Lance Briggs and trying to talk Gibbs into make the move. Him and Vinny loving Chad Johnson, offering 2 first round picks for him -- thankfully the trade got rejected, etc. Him watching tape with coaches, etc.

We couldn't put together a flow chart for the offensive playcalling under Gibbs 2.0, let alone the front office flow. Gibbs was obviously in charge of everything, but he seemed very fond of sharing authority and letting everyone have a voice. We kept hearing things like "That's a Williams' pick" and "He's a Cerrato signing" then. I got the impression that Gibbs genuinely wanted everyone - even Danny - involved. I don't think it worked entirely. (Though it did work better than anything else we have tried).

Schottenheimer, Gibbs, and Shanahan all have the same level of control though. And Shanahan - control freak that he is - does not seem to be the type to not use his control. I think this is very similar to the way Parcells ran things in Dallas.

[Oldfan]

The WP did an expose years ago of the decision making structure under Gibbs 2, and the way it was described -- Gibbs and assistant coaches would state their needs, in turn Vinny would give the player recommendations, Gibbs would mostly go along with Vinny's recommendations, Vinny would go to Danny to get his take, they'd discuss, then Vinny and Danny would negotiate the deal/trade.

I just get the impression from those that have commented who have worked with Danny -- that its way too much fun for him to stay out of it unless he has no choice. One reporter who covers this team for 980 said his source told him for example Danny went with Vinny to scout M. Kelly and fell in love with him, some of the Redskins scouts were wary about his injury history but Danny wanted him so they drafted him. You never know this stuff might be wrong but it seems like lot of smoke to the fire -- stuff like Danny liking the idea of acquiring Lance Briggs and trying to talk Gibbs into making the move. Him and Vinny loving Chad Johnson, offering 2 first round picks for him -- thankfully the trade got rejected, etc. Him watching tape with coaches, etc.

We couldn't put together a flow chart for the offensive playcalling under Gibbs 2.0' date=' let alone the front office flow. Gibbs was obviously in charge of everything, but he seemed very fond of sharing authority and letting everyone have a voice. We kept hearing things like "That's a Williams' pick" and "He's a Cerrato signing" then. I got the impression that Gibbs genuinely wanted everyone - even Danny - involved. I don't think it worked entirely. (Though it did work better than anything else we have tried).

Schottenheimer, Gibbs, and Shanahan all have the same level of control though. And Shanahan - control freak that he is - does not seem to be the type to not use his control. I think this is very similar to the way Parcells ran things in Dallas.[/quote']Both these posts ring true when you consider the personalities involved beginning with Dan Snyder. I can imagine Gibbs delegating responsibility easily but not wisely. I can't see Shanahan delegating anything having to do with player evaluation to Bruce Allen. I think he would be dealing directly with his director of player personnel.

I blame Snyder for giving Gibbs and Shanahan total control. They manage differently, but they are typical football coaches with win-now goals.

[Skinsinparadise]

Both these posts ring true when you consider the personalities involved beginning with Dan Snyder. I can imagine Gibbs delegating responsibility easily but not wisely. I can't see Shanahan delegating anything having to do with player evaluation to Bruce Allen. I think he would be dealing directly with his director of player personnel.

I blame Snyder for giving Gibbs and Shanahan total control. They manage differently, but they are typical football coaches with win-now goals.

Gibbs himself in interviews said that Danny him and Cerrato would get in a room and discuss FO moves. While I agree I'd rather have a strong GM than a coach in charge of it all, I feel even stronger that I don't like Danny being involved in personnel decisions. so I'd take a heavy handed Marty running the full ship and Shanny to a democratic process where Danny has a strong voice.

Edit: though I have to say I really like thus far Shanny's drafts and how he has turned over what he inherited which was a declining team with the oldest roster in the league. The McNabb trade was a train wreck though.

[Oldfan]

Gibbs himself in interviews said that Danny him and Cerrato would get in a room and discuss FO moves. While I agree I'd rather have a strong GM than a coach in charge of it all, I feel even stronger that I don't like Danny being involved in personnel decisions. so I'd take a heavy handed Marty running the full ship and Shanny to a democratic process where Danny has a strong voice.

Edit: though I have to say I really like thus far Shanny's drafts and how he has turned over what he inherited which was a declining team with the oldest roster in the league. The McNabb trade was a train wreck though.

I'm too old to be willing to settle for a choice between two incompetent approaches. Of the conventional approaches available, I'l like to see Snyder setting the goal for the organization and monitoring the major decisions to see that they are aligned with the goal. Then, I'd like to see him hire a GM with the responsibility to select his coach.

On the other hand, if Snyder isn't going to make becoming number one, the model franchise in the NFL, then it doesn't matter much to me how he manages it.

[Skinsinparadise]

On the other hand, if Snyder isn't going to make becoming number one, the model franchise in the NFL, then it doesn't matter much to me how he manages it.

I don't wonder whether Snyder has the desire but whether he has the temperament to let it play out that way. Obviously, I've never met the guy so i am running on what has been said about him -- the vibe I get it:

A.. he's willing to behave for a period but then he grows impatient

B.. He's learned more patience over the years but he still is an up and down with the moment kind of guy but he can bottle it in.

He reminds me in a way of the description of George Steinbrenner, though not as bad as him -- he wants to win really really really bad -- and its the really really really stuff that makes him impetuous and expedient at the wrong time.

I'd guess Danny would get out of the way, if he got quicker results from his coaches but he might not have the patience for example to ensure 4-5 years of mediocrity or less for a larger goal.

[Thinking Skins]

Allen cannot fire his boss.

I don't see why this is so difficult: Shanahan has all the power here. He is Joe Gibbs. Allen works for him. The only person who can fire Shanahan is Danny.

Yeah, so this becomes a problem if Shanny gets let go. Does that mean Allen goes too? And if so, then will Allen become a true GM in that case, or will Snyder simply hire another big name coach (Dungy? Cowher?) to come in and serve the same (or a similar) role? I just don't like the power structure. I never did and unless we start winning, I think I'll continue to have problems with it.

[Oldfan]

...I'd guess Danny would get out of the way, if he got quicker results from his coaches but he might not have the patience for example to ensure 4-5 years of mediocrity or less for a larger goal.

Putting myself in Danny's shoes...there's no telling how long it might take to climb over 31 other franchises to reach the top. I would want to see steady progress being made toward that goal, but I would not use wins as a standard for measurement because an 8-win team could win 6 or 10 during any given season depending on the breaks.

---------- Post added October-10th-2012 at 12:30 PM ----------

Yeah, so this becomes a problem if Shanny gets let go. Does that mean Allen goes too? And if so, then will Allen become a true GM in that case, or will Snyder simply hire another big name coach (Dungy? Cowher?) to come in and serve the same (or a similar) role? I just don't like the power structure. I never did and unless we start winning, I think I'll continue to have problems with it.

The Saints owner hired GM Mickey Loomis who gave them their best draft ever and hired Sean Payton. Loomis and Payton agreed that free agent Drew Brees, coming off shoulder surgery, was worth an offer.

In order of importance, the three individuals who can change a team's fortune: 1) The GM; 2) the Head Coach; 3) the starting QB.

That's the formula for a turnaround.

[Thinking Skins]

The Saints owner hired GM Mickey Loomis who gave them their best draft ever and hired Sean Payton. Loomis and Payton agreed that free agent Drew Brees, coming off shoulder surgery, was worth an offer.

In order of importance, the three individuals who can change a team's fortune: 1) The GM; 2) the Head Coach; 3) the starting QB.

That's the formula for a turnaround.

If you say so.

I think the formula for success is accountability. So its up to Snyder to put people in place to make the proper decisions and if those people are not making the proper decisions then they need to be removed. But when he hires guys who are his flimseys then the line is blurred. Was Vinny really that dumb or was he just doing what his pay grade said, "follow mr. Snyder's instructions". This may not lead to instant success, but its the process that businesses go through; its the process that just about every other sports franchise in just about every sport in America (and probably the world) goes through. Players play, coaches coach and GMs Gm. Just like I don't want to see a player giving advice on who we should be trading for, I don't want my coach picking the fruit for the salad that he may or may not be here to enjoy. I want my coach concentrating on winning with what he's given. I want my GM to be thinking about having a quality team this year as well as years to come.

I don't mind having a coach who has all the power as long as we know that he has the power and he can be fired accordingly (I will note that these situations generally haven't worked, hence the need to have a Bruce Allen with the GM title acknowledging that Shanny can't do it alone. But when we're firing Zorn when he has no power in choosing his coordinators and position coaches, let alone his players, I'm a bit skeptical about the structure of our front office. It wouldn't surprise me if we were to blame Allen for the mistakes of the last K years and attempt to give Mike a new GM. I pray that's not what happens because I think Allen is at least a decent GM, nothing spectacular but enough to get us on stable ground if given the chance. But what do I know, maybe he's bought into Danny's free agents are the way of the future, Madden 1997-esque way of owning a team. Its not how he did it in Tampa, but people change.

[sempre_victrix]

Overall, I like what he's done. The Cundiff signing and trade for McNabb stick out as WTF moments, but I guess he was channeling his inner Cerrato. He didn't know that Landry was going to bust for us, so he probably counted on him being here this year. Letting Rogers walk was another mistake, too.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Yeah, so this becomes a problem if Shanny gets let go. Does that mean Allen goes too?

I don't think Danny will fire Shanahan. I really don't. He coveted him as his coach for so long that I think he will let this play out until a) it's either completely hopeless or Shanahan decides to retire either after great success or simple exhaustion.

I personally like the strong GM model for a franchise, but I don't think that can work here. I also don't think a young, up and coming coach could work here. I think the only model that has ever shown any chance of working is the "star" coach who has complete control. It looked like it might eventually work under Marty. It kind of worked under Gibbs. We have not won games, but we've been somewhat coherent under Shanahan.

It seems like Danny needs one person to have all the control. Otherwise, he has too many access points to the day to day football operations.