Does Rob Jackson make Orakpo expendable?

[authentic]

Really? A 7th rounder who just had one good game and we want to replace Rak?

I think Jackson has more penalties then he does sacks.

Is he good depth? yes....

possible starter? (We'll have to see more)

Replace Rak? NO!

lol... naw man, like i said in the OP. this is something that i've been considering since last season, thru the PS, up until the Cincy game.. its not a 1 game revelation.

[Bang]

Lets see the next 13 games first.

~Bang

[Skinz4Life12]

If we could trade him for an area of real need, such as OT or Defensive Secondary, then I'd at LEAST listen.

this

[KingGibbs]

lol... naw man, like i said in the OP. this is something that i've been considering since last season, thru the PS, up until the Cincy game.. its not a 1 game revelation.

Watch out Authentic. Criticism whether it be constructive or not will land you on an ES Most Wanted poster. Trust me. I know.

[ShadesOfSoul]

Has anyone noticed that LaRon Landry is ballin' for the Jets? #RandomThought

Not a bad question and I tend to see how Rak could be expendible. Funny thing, he has CRAZY measurables (Power, Speed) and shows flashes....but has regressed since his rookie year. I would be scared to pay him "top dollar".....but a nice (respectable) contract is probably in order (health being considered).....

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

So after one good game for Rob, we're already considering ditching the best pure edge rusher we have on this team? (I love Kerrigan, and think he's a far more consistent overall player than Orakpo. But he's not the pure rush threat Brian is.).

I'ma be kind and say this should be filed under 'not all thoughts should be posts.'

Hail.

*Edit* And I know you stated yopu'd been considering this for a while. But it's come to fruition off Jackson's performance this past Sunday.

[Chris 44]

Be interesting to see the current personnel in a 4-3. A front four with Kerrigan and Orakpo with their hands in the dirt, with Bowen and Cofield in the middle. Riley, Fletcher and Jackson as the three linebackers.

[KingGibbs]

So after one good game for Rob, we're already considering ditching the best pure edge rusher we have on this team? (I love Kerrigan, and think he's a far more consistent overall player than Orakpo. But he's not the pure rush threat Brian is.).

I'ma be kind and say this should be filed under 'not all thoughts should be posts.'

Hail.

*Edit* And I know you stated yopu'd been considering this for a while. But it's come to fruition off Jackson's performance this past Sunday.

I hope you realize that some of us in this thread love Jackson, but realize we need to see more before passing judgement.

[superozman]

I think this needs context.. because the numbers suggest that he's top-tier. But i think the difference is in determining "when" in the game those plays are made. How many times can we recall where Rak has made a game changing or game ending sack or FF? Not saying that he doesn't possess the talent or the work ethic to become that. But the players above, IMO, are in another class.

Every sack is important in the NFL. How can you state this when you don't know when those 6 players sacks were, and when Rak's were?

[authentic]

So after one good game for Rob, we're already considering ditching the best pure edge rusher we have on this team? (I love Kerrigan, and think he's a far more consistent overall player than Orakpo. But he's not the pure rush threat Brian is.).

I'ma be kind and say this should be filed under 'not all thoughts should be posts.'

Hail.

*Edit* And I know you stated yopu'd been considering this for a while. But it's come to fruition off Jackson's performance this past Sunday.

-I think there's a growing consensus (even since last season), that Kerrigan may be a better all around player than Rak.

-I wouldn't say come to fruition. But the intrigue is growing.. I haven't come to anything definitive regarding Rak or Jackson. Like i said, I think we should explore our options with Rak in the offseason. Thats all.

---------- Post added September-26th-2012 at 08:46 AM ----------

Every sack is important in the NFL. How can you state this when you don't know when those 6 players sacks were, and when Rak's were?

We all watch the games, don't we? its pretty easy to determine, based on observation that, so far in Rak's career that he hasn't made any game changing or game ending plays... Certainly not at the volume or consistency as the top tier pass rushers.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

-I think there's a growing consensus (even since last season), that Kerrigan may be a better all around player than Rak.

-I wouldn't say come to fruition. But the intrigue is growing.. I haven't come to anything definitive regarding Rak or Jackson. Like i said, I think we should explore our options with Rak in the offseason. Thats all.

I don't get why you'd want to even consider exploring ditching a guy, who when all said and done is your best pure rusher; and who'll still only be 27 next year; to only weaken us further as we try strengthen in other areas.

I'd give this more credence if we didn't have so many other holes still to fill and good replace Orakpo with a similar player. Even given his trade value, that high pick would have to be used elsewhere; and we'd be just robbing Peter to pay Paul. Strengthening one area and weakening another.

Hail.

[Laxpunk2006]

Lax. Those stats are nice, but there is more to it then just sacks. There's QB pressures, QB hits, run defense, dropping in covereage. I've never been a stat guy.

Well there's this:

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/06/25/three-years-of-pass-rushing-productivity-edge-rushers-2/

I would classify that as elite ranking. Consider this is the last three season's, not Orakpo's first three vs. each of these players first three. Considering many of these players have gotten better with experience he compares very favorably.

Here's 2011 alone:

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/03/26/2011-pass-rushing-productivity-edge-rushers/

How often do Ware or Suggs drop into coverage? Not often. Without a metric it is difficult to compare that.

While you may not be a stat guy I think it would be useful to bring actual data to the conversation rather than biased observations (on both sides of the argument).

The same source (PFF) also considers Orakpo to be a protoype 3-4 OLB.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/05/30/defensive-prototypes-linebackers/

Numbers and stats may not tell the whole story but they do give a big chunk of it. Within that chunk Orakpo fares well.

[G1]

They're trying to build depth. We have some nice depth at OLB. Why screw with that.

To be honest, I don't care if Jackson makes the pro bowl this year. keep them both. Let's build some quality depth.

[The Slamming Butcher]

Has anyone noticed that LaRon Landry is ballin' for the Jets? #RandomThought

Let's see if he's still ballin' late in the season...if so, then I'll join the chorus of "we may have made a mistake letting Landry walk".

And I'm really not surprised that he has started strong...he should have been well rested.

[Oldfan]

Edge rushers expend more energy on each play than other positions. If a team wants to keep up the pressure, it needs three or four. It's highly unlikely that the Skins will have an over-supply that will allow a trade when Rak returns.

[Laxpunk2006]

We all watch the games, don't we? its pretty easy to determine, based on observation that, so far in Rak's career that he hasn't made any game changing or game ending plays... Certainly not at the volume or consistency as the top tier pass rushers.

Do you watch every game of each of these players? Is it not possible that you are mostly seeing highlights of other players that present them favorably? Just because Orakpo isn't sacking the QB on the last play of the game doesn't make it any less important. Every play is a scoring opportunity and every sack, holding penalty, and pressure that leads to an incompletion or interception prevents that opportunity.

Here is another stat for you. Orakpo was the most held player in 2010 and tied for second in 2011. These aren't "should have been" holds that ES loves to complain about. These are real holding penalties.

Are these not valuable as well?

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/extra-points/2012/who-drew-most-offensive-holding-flags-2011

[authentic]

I don't get why you'd want to even consider exploring ditching a guy, who when all said and done is your best pure rusher; and who'll still only be 27 next year; to only weaken us further as we try strengthen in other areas.

Hail.

I think exploring your options with him gives you an opportunity to strengthen other weak areas on the team. And we can at least agree that LB is one of our deeper (perhaps the deepest) area of the team. I think "ditching" may be a bit harsh. Because its not like i think he's garbage, or even saying that Jackson is better. But if we can get a high draft pick (for example), i don't know why that would be out of the realm of possiblity.

[#98QBKiller]

If Rob Jackson continues to play at a high level then I'd say so. Jackson has always made plays when given the opportunity, whether it's in a regular season game or a preseason game, he always comes to play. I'm excited to see more of him this year.

[authentic]

Do you watch every game of each of these players? Is it not possible that you are mostly seeing highlights of other players that present them favorably? Just because Orakpo isn't sacking the QB on the last play of the game doesn't make it any less important. Every play is a scoring opportunity and every sack, holding penalty, and pressure that leads to an incompletion or interception prevents that opportunity.

Here is another stat for you. Orakpo was the most held player in 2010 and tied for second in 2011. These aren't "should have been" holds that ES loves to complain about. These are real holding penalties.

Are these not valuable as well?

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/extra-points/2012/who-drew-most-offensive-holding-flags-2011

All pass rushers are held. even last year folks were complaining that he needs to learn to use his hands more.. Actually there was a thread started during the offseason on that very issue. I don't think his production has matched his potential thus far in his career. I'm on record for saying that he has the talent to be top 3... He just needs to put it all together and polish his skills.

[Warpath11]

As others have mentioned we have too little a sample size for Jackson to consider moving on from Rak. Come December I'll have a better answer for you but at this point I think this discussion is a bit premature. For sake of discussion, if hypothetically, RJax gets 8-10 sacks continues to play the run real well, and make progress in his coverage drops I would not be opposed to exploring trade options for Rak (draft picks only, IMO).

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Maybe ditching was too strong a word, and I apologize for anyone taking that literally as to the OP; but I still think it's a flawed idea at this time.

We're gona' have to replace Fletch (maybe Keenan's the guy to step up alongside Riley, maybe not. But we need depth behind them); Alexanders gona' be 30 next year, so we're gona' be looking at maybe two inside LB's in the coming years. And if you take Orakpo out of the equation on the outside, your left with three if Jackson and White turn out to be what we hope. If their just quality back-up's, your still looking at a top flight rusher to replace Orakpo.

With a woeful secondary to attend to, along with a not much better offensive front; moving Brian out just creates an unnecessary headache at the present time for me.

Hail.

[Drunken Master III]

Has anyone noticed that LaRon Landry is ballin' for the Jets? #RandomThought

Not a bad question and I tend to see how Rak could be expendible. Funny thing, he has CRAZY measurables (Power, Speed) and shows flashes....but has regressed since his rookie year. I would be scared to pay him "top dollar".....but a nice (respectable) contract is probably in order (health being considered).....

Yeah... It sucks that we let all our productive DB's get away.... Landry, Rogers, Clark, and I would even throw in Fred Smoot. Now we are left with scraps. As for now it looks like getting rid of Landry was a big mistake. I thought we should have franchised the guy and given him one more season to prove that he could stay healthy. I think we need a better defensive coordinator who can also draft defensive players. Haslett needs to be replaced.

[skinsfan07]

Don't get rid of a talent like Rak. We've seen that bite us in the ass before. Rak is a solid player who consistently got pressure on the QB when he was in. I think he's gona be here for a while. Once he gets fully healthy like he was his rookie season, expect tons more production out of him. Plus he's still so young!

[Laxpunk2006]

All pass rushers are held. even last year folks were complaining that he needs to learn to use his hands more.. Actually there was a thread started during the offseason on that very issue. I don't think his production has matched his potential thus far in his career. I'm on record for saying that he has the talent to be top 3... He just needs to put it all together and polish his skills.

Clearly.

The point was that KingGibbs said there is more to just sacks when it comes to production. Drawing a holding penalty is a facet of that production and it happens to be something that happens quite often with Orakpo on the field. Those plays can win games such as against Dallas a few years ago.

Has his production matched his potential? Probably not. Has he continued to improve as an all around OLB? I'd say he has. Have most of the "top" pass rushers posters use as comparisons continued to improve throughout their careers? Absolutely.

At a bare minimum we have to be able to agree that Orakpo is an upper echelon player if we can't call him elite. Why not enjoy his production (and what he opens up for other players) while allowing him to continue to grow.

[IrepDC]

Jackson started with low expectations so any good thing he does gets extreme recognition. Orakpo started with high expectations so any negative thing he does gets extreme criticism. Heck, Rak got injured getting a sack/forced fumble on the QB.

I really just think our fanbase gets carried away with doing this to every player. We always want to find the gem and never appreciate the talent that we do have(unless it's best in the league, top notch, hall of fame level). Rak is constantly compared to DeMarcus Ware and Terrell Suggs to somehow show that he hasn't lived up to expectations. Those guys are once in a generation, probably hall of fame, talents. He can be effective without being the absolute best at everything.

And these "run so and so out of town theories" always come with the assumption that x player will want too much money. You all should be fans of the 2011 Tampa Bay Bucaneeers if you don't want us to pay any of our players. Rak will get paid his worth and nothing more.