If the Skins go 6-10 or worse, Shanny SHOULD be on the chopping block

[wit33]

You all are making it much more complex than it really needs to be. This is a QB driven league and when you have a top tier QB you win games. If RG3 turns out to be as good as those QB's on those rebuilt teams KLEESE used as examples (Peyton Manning, Donovan Mcnabb, Mathew Stafford and Matt Ryan), everything will work out just fine.

Be very worried--- if he RG3 turns out to be like, Jamarcus Russel, David Carr, Joey Harrington, Akili Smith, Matt Leinart, Vince Young, Heath Shuler, Jeff George.... guys like this will have coaches out of jobs and quickly named as an offensive or defensive coordinator the following year.

So, Shanny is now tied to the hip to RG3 in many ways: job with the Redskins, him being an offensive genius, and his legacy as an NFL coach. With all this being said, Shanny deserves to have a full first crack at making RG3 into one of those first mentioned QB's and hopefully not the latter mentioned QB's.

Full 5 years....................

[Murphs56]

I agree with most on their assessments of Shanahan and he should stay and all of that. The only problem I tend to have with him is he makes these BOLD statements to the fans and media. Stuff like I put my reputation on These 2 QBs or RG III will do things that's never been done at the QB position or telling the fans I Guarantee you will be proud of this team. He gets me very hyped for the team. I just hope he fulfills on what he says

[aussieskin]

This is not a good argument, simple fact is that Mike inherited probably the worst run franchise in its history, it was a horrible team, players, it would appear were doing what they wanted. Mike comes in and the structures inside the franchise changed, the players who used the club were let go or not re-signed, the dead was removed, and younger players were brought in, the team was being rebuilt as we all knew it should be, through the draft, with senior players being brought in to mentor and direct the draftees. The character of the players changed, The owner stayed in his ivory tower and left the football decisions to his head coach.

The club is now clawing its way back to the top, people now want to play for the skins because we are a FOOTBALL TEAM, not a paycheck: courtesy of MS.

So i guess the answer is NO WAY, this club may have a way to go to be contenders, but we are improving each year, soon everything will catch up and we will be feared again like we were during the day of the hogs.

[Chris0894]

I feel like this happens to us every year. But the Good teams find a way to win those games

---------- Post added August-20th-2012 at 02:32 AM ----------

Me too, we havent had a qb to find ways to win those games, hopefully we do. people need to chil cause rg3 hasnt had time to get warmed up or pumped like the colts are giving luck in his preseason games. like last night luck threw two picks and quickly turned it around. Its not like rg3 has been stinking it up lol

[JesseNeckred]

if Shanny gets let go after this season, RGIII will suffer Jason Campbell syndrome, no thanks.

[Murphs56]

Me too, we havent had a qb to find ways to win those games, hopefully we do. people need to chil cause rg3 hasnt had time to get warmed up or pumped like the colts are giving luck in his preseason games. like last night luck threw two picks and quickly turned it around. Its not like rg3 has been stinking it up lol

The playcalling has been extremely conservative. I'm not against a balanced attack but I feel like we are really committing to the run in this preseason to see what we have at the RB position. I think it's quite difficult for RG III to get into a rhythm based on the playcalling. I mean there was one point when when we were in Bears territory, and it was 3rd and 12 or something like that and we ran the ball. That's quite conservative

[darrelgreenie]

-Kleese

I hear what you are saying, there have been some major blunders in Mike Shanahan's rebuilding process.

Some completely his fault, some with right intention but with a kinda shockingly unpredictable outcome (McNabb).

The quality of the FO rebuild prior to Griffin could be called into question and for good reason may have been viewed as 'hot seat' worthy.

...enter Robert Griffin III

Shrewd move on their part, because without a viable QB of the future the really would have been in trouble.

Robert Griffin is a great and worthy prospect that effectively hits the 'reset' button on this regimes time table.

It takes time to groom a rookie QB into a franchise QB.

Getting rid of regime in a rooke QBs 1st year can be quite damaging.

Also, finding a new regime (unless they are from the same coaching family/philosophy) almost guarantee more change/losing as the new regime brings in player that fit their scheme.

We are married to Mike, Mike is married to Griffin.

And while I feel your trepidation, I take solace in 2 things.

Whatever Mike Shanahan/Bruce Allen lack as general managers Mike Shanahan more then compensates with his ability to coach.

Equally if not more importantly Robert Griffin III is a stud.

I don't think this team is going to be worse then 6-10.

But if they are 6-10 this regime has to come back for Griffin's 2nd season.

[skins island connection]

I can't say I would bash the OP, its an opinion, as we all have.

BUT, I will say that there should be decent improvements in the team's performance.RGIII and Cousins are both in a precarious position; yes, RGIII is the #2 pick, and everyone has expectations of him lighting it up, but in Mike's offense, it might not work out that way, at least in the near future.

Now, Kyle on the other hand, it could be different. Does he have the experience to utilize RGIII's skills in the best ways, without getting him hurt? Being the o-line is not in the elite status yet, the team's success will rely on his legs as much as his arm.

I am going to remain optimistic at the team's chances for improvement this year; last year they were in OR leading alot of games, but poor decisions by Rex cost the games. Sorry, but I haven't been a big Kyle supporter, personally I think he was lucky by having stud players in Houston to work with who made the plays; if it requires stud players for Kyle to be successful, then that itself should tell us all we need to know about HIS abilities.

Poker faces are hard to read, as well as pre-season games; I am just gonna sit back, and wait...and wait...

[Jacoah]

I just don't understand a number of these knee-jerk reactions to a bad performance in one preseason game. There is no mystery that a rookie quarterback will struggle like RGIII did in the game against Chicago. And he DID make some awful rookie mistakes, of that there is no question. But we should expect that, even beyond the preseason.

I don't think a 6-10 season is reason enough to put Shanny on the chopping block; although that is the type of thing we'd have all expected from Snyder years ago. No, I actually believe our owner has a good deal more patience now. I believe he has learned some very hard lessons over the years. And while I want to believe we have a .500 or better team (I will tote that banner because I plan to remain positive regardless of what I see in one meaningless preseason game), I'm realistically preparing myself for 7-9 or worse. As a fan, I understand that we are still in rebuilding mode. Unfortunately, that means that I'll also have to suffer along with the team as they go through the inevitable growing pains.

[NewCliche21]

I'm guessing this is a direct response to http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?368662-My-Annual-ES-Pre-Season-Freak-Out-Thread ?

Sorry man, I don't see the difference.

[kleese]

I'm guessing this is a direct response to http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?368662-My-Annual-ES-Pre-Season-Freak-Out-Thread ?

Sorry man, I don't see the difference.

Yes it is a direct response. Many of the posts in that thread led me to start this one because I felt it was a different subject. My only disappointment in this thread is that it is very clear that most are not reading the replies and/or my counters before posting. That is pretty clear.

It's funny, when I started this thread I actually thought I'd come off as a homer

It is all base on the fact that I really LIKE Shanny and out direction. I am actually quite confident we will be better this year than many are predicting.

My point is that I do not believe we can hit a "reset" button--- I won't let them off the hook like that. I also don't think we can feel good about our progress if we don't win some games.

I'm not kidding about this and I will keep asking the question..... Why should it take Shanny five years to be competitive when NO other teams in the history of modern NFL have taken that long? Even with rebuilt rosters.... Even with changing schemes.... Even with rookie QB's....

The "changing schemes" thing is so Incredibly overblown around here. Again, I can keep going on and on and on citing examples of successful teams shortly after coaching changes.

The 49ers are another recent example.... They got a rebuild going under Singletary, but results were not showing up on the field. They fire him, bring in Harbaugh, and in year one go 13-3 with a brand new (and apparantly complicated) scheme... His brother went into Baltimore with a new scheme and rookie QB and also had success.

I do think Shanny has a bit of a different situation and I'll give him leeway for that. Again, I'm not asking for playoffs... But I also know history.... If after four years we aren't a playoff team, it's highly unlikely that a magic switch will be flipped in year five.

One more time.... Name a highly successful coaching staff that took five years to start winning??????

[gibbsandflair]

If I were Snyder I would give Shanny a extension now to just stop the talk in season when we struggle. I look for a slow start and by the second half RGIII will show great improvement.

[Audible_Red40]

I don't think he should be on the chopping block, but yes it would be totally disappointing for the players, coaches and the fans, and boderline unacceptable.

[kleese]

Again just to clarify my point... A 5-11 type season would raise my eyebrows unless somehow we looked great doing it, which would be hard to do. I would NOT fire Shanny after that, but I would out him on the hot seat. And if we went 6-10 in 2013 I'd very likely be in favor of him NOT seeing year five. I think it is reasonable to expect some modest tangible success as the years progress, even given our circumstances.

[Ned Flanders]

Lions

2008: 0-16; arguably worst team in NFL history.

Enter new GM/Coach/QB

2009: 2-14

2010: 6-10

2011: 10-6 wildcard

All situations are different and I am not calling for a 10-6 or bust season by any means, but please don't tell me the Lions entering 2009 were somehow more "stable" or a better situation than the Redskins.

The NFL has changed; rebuilds don't take as long-- or at least they shouldn't.

If it takes Shanny five years to get us competitive, I think that is a problem.

Umm, the Lions didn't have Ronald McDonald as coach, Fat **** the Defensive Tackle with Bug Eyes and Sperm Lewis the Bingo Caller calling the shots. It was a friggin circus here before Shanny arrived. You have to change the culture before the team improves, and sometimes that means flushing the toilet and filling it back up slowly. Throw in a 36 Mill cap hit which puts our nuts in a vise, and there you have it. That cap hurt us severely :obvious:

I understand your points, and I know we've sucked for an eternity, but this is a different situation completely.

HAIL

[Commander Adama]

Shanahan and Allen have a plan. First rebuild the defense into a 3-4, which of course the first year is down the tubes since they had 4-3 personnel. And the second year some progress. Then start working on the offense, which they started, BUT we got hit with that outrageous cap restriction of 13 million, so we could not rebuild the line. I personally like the plan that Shanahan and Allen have in place, and I hope for once, Snyder does not do a Snyder, and stop the progress.

We are no longer the place that aged veterans look to go to get a payday before they retire. That is completely out of the picture now. So the culture at FedEx field is changing. Also, if you think Shanahan and Allen has had time to replace our line and get depth at the line as well as our secondary and Inside Linebacker spots, I think that is far off the mark. The Line, Secondary, and Linebacker positions I think will be key areas next offseason, but these are areas that it is hard for rookies to compete at the NFL level at starting out. I think they need a year under their belts at least. So five years I think we start to see a turn-around, and I hope Shanahan gets renewed for at least a year to see the fruits of their labor.

[kleese]

Umm, the Lions didn't have Ronald McDonald as coach, Fat **** the Defensive Tackle with Bug Eyes and Sperm Lewis the Bingo Caller calling the shots. It was a friggin circus here before Shanny arrived. You have to change the culture before the team improves, and sometimes that means flushing the toilet and filling it back up slowly. Throw in a 36 Mill cap hit which puts our nuts in a vise, and there you have it. That cap hurt us severely :obvious:

I understand your points, and I know we've sucked for an eternity, but this is a different situation completely.

HAIL

Really? Matt Millen running the show wasn't a circus?

You do realize they were 0-16 and the fans staged a protest to get the front office canned? Mike Williams and Charles Johnson in the first round?

If you are really trying to tell me that Schwartz entered a better situation, I will just have to vehemently disagree with that.

[Diesel Hog]

Shanny and company need this year and next. Now...after next season, if they are 6-10, or worse, then I'll question if he should stay. Until then though, I'm thinking the chopping block should be a discussion until after the 2013 season.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

I have now provided four examples (Lions, Falcons, Eagles, Colts) of teams in the past 15 years that brought in new coaches/GMs, gutted rosters, AND added highly drafted rookie QB's that started immediately. None of those teams took anywhere close to five years to become competitive... Three of them had double digit wins in their second year; it took the 0-16 Lions into the third year to do it.

And, outside of Atlanta, each of those teams didn't have winning seasons until their newly drafted QB's 2nd or 3rd year.

You're wanting the same type of results in RG3's first year.

You've convinced yourself that the rest of the Skins team is A) sufficiently stocked so that a rookie QB can come in and immediately put together at least 8 wins, and no more time is needed to determine whether or not this rebuild will yield the results we all want. You're wrong on both counts.

There's no magic number of seasons/games/etc that will tell you whether or not you'll reach your intended goal.

Vermeil had two double digit loss years in St. Louis then won the Super Bowl with a QB who had never started an NFL game prior.

That right there should tell you EVERYTHING. Not sure why you're missing it.

Vermiel's team sucked without the right QB. They suddenly turned into a powerhouse with multiple SB appearances with one.

It's the QB, stupid.

Warner may not have started an NFL game before, but he was on the team for two years and had been on other NFL teams as well. He was more like Brad Johnson, Jeff Garcia and Tony Romo sits to pee than any rookie QB you could ever mention. He'd been through training camps, preseason games, studied pro playbooks and had been playing on either NFL or arena teams for four years before becoming starter.

The only ways you can have a winning season in the NFL is if you have a just dominant defense...if you get on some extremely rare streak of luck...or if you have a bonafide QB behind center. That's it. You can count on one hand the number of truly dominant defenses there have been in the league over the last 10-15 years, and I can't think of a single team that went from bottom dwellers to consistent winners based on the football gods smiling down on them every season lol...but once you get a true franchise QB, everything's possible. Developing that QB becomes the #1 priority...because it's gonna pay dividends for over a decade. developing other aspects of the team like the RB unit or the pass rush--while important--doesn't hold a candle to it. So what Shanahan and Allen have done so far--while impressive--doesn't even compare to what they're about to do with RG3.

And 5 years is the amount of time Synder gave Shanahan and the amount of time Shanahan felt he was promised to turn the franchise around--not just the team, but the entire franchise. Shanahan made his decisions with the idea that he'd be here the entire length of his contract. That's why he didn't go balls-out last season to get a QB. That's why he felt it better for the team--not for his personal tenure as coach--to trade down and keep rebuilding the roster while waiting for better QB prospects to pick from. Your way of thinking would have had him sticking with McNabb, thinking to himself "We need to at least get an 8-8 season under my belt to help keep my job safe"...his decisions were made with 5 years in mind...not two or three.

As I've said numerous times on numerous threads...if we have four straight losing seasons, then become consistent contenders from year 5 on forward...will any of us really give a **** what our record was this year? If RG3 becomes a perrenial Pro Bowler starting in his third year, will we care that he couldn't muster more than 5-6 wins his rookie season? If the defense becomes a regular in the top 5 by Shanny's 5th year, will we care that the unit was middle of the pack in 2012?

No.

Find me an example in the modern NFL where a new regime (whether adding a QB or not) has taken five years to reach a playoff level and then had success?????

Houston Texans. Didn't reach 8 wins until they traded for Schaub. Didn't have a winning season until Kubiak's 4th season. Didn't make the playoffs until Kubiak's 6th season.

Tennessee Titans. Fisher didn't have a winning season until his 5th year--and McNair's 3rd year starting--then they became consistent winners...and that year made it to the Super Bowl.

Seattle Seahawks. While Holmgren's squad did win the division his first season, the next three seasons saw them staying home and having as many losing seasons and winning ones. Wasn't until year 5 under Holmgren--and Hasselbeck's third year starting--that the Seahawks turned into consistent winners and contenders. Even with a playoff-caliber roster the Seahawks couldn't become regular winners until they had their QB in place...and until he had been starting for at least 2-3 seasons.

And interestingly enough, Schotty went 12-20 in San Diego during Brees' first two seasons. Even benched him and played Flutie. Even drafted Rivers to replace him. Wasn't until Brees' 3rd year in the league that he started tearing **** up on the field and the Chargers became consistent winners.

Again...it's the QB, stupid.

More than likely, Shanahan knew that it would take a rookie QB 2-3 years before he lead his team to being consistent winners...so Shanny knew he needed to get his QB by year three. After trying for Bradford and deeming none of last year's realistic QB possibilities as being the right fit, he's now got his QB. Now let's see if that QB can turn the Skins into consistent winners within 2-3 years.

That's why you give Shanahan his entire 5 years. That's why no one should freak out if the Skins go 6-10 this year. Because this team, right now, with an established franchise QB, could win the division. But this team, right now, with a rookie QB, will lose games it should have won, and will most likely only show evidence of what's to come instead of delivering it right now. I know the Skins play at FedEx Field, but let's not expect things to be delivered overnight.

Let's see the plan through for once in our freakin' lives lol...

[2cents]

Eagles

1997: 6-9-1

1998: 3-13

Enter new coach/GM/rookie QB

1999: 5-11

2000: 11-5

---------- Post added August-19th-2012 at 11:58 PM ----------

Colts

1997: 3-13

Enter new coach/rookie QB

1998: 3-13

1999: 13-3

I have now provided four examples (Lions, Falcons, Eagles, Colts) of teams in the past 15 years that brought in new coaches/GMs, gutted rosters, AND added highly drafted rookie QB's that started immediately. None of those teams took anywhere close to five years to become competitive... Three of them had double digit wins in their second year; it took the 0-16 Lions into the third year to do it.

Other teams in not identical, but similar situations have taken a similar path...

Vermeil had two double digit loss years in St. Louis then won the Super Bowl with a QB who had never started an NFL game prior.

The Jets had a new coach/rookie QB go the the AFC Championship game their first two years...

Find me an example in the modern NFL where a new regime (whether adding a QB or not) has taken five years to reach a playoff level and then had success?????

---------- Post added August-20th-2012 at 12:00 AM ----------

If a regime has the goods, it does not take five years to show up on the field, period. History dictates otherwise.

But you can't just post records in a vaccumm. Look at cap space, look at age of team. We had the worst starting point argueably of any team you mention. No cap space, old team, no depth, limited draft picks. Then add in the CBA in year one with no free agents at all hardly, next year is the lockout and then this year 18 million(18 million!!!!!) in cap space taken away right as free agency starts. That increases the difficulty of the job exponentially. People will say "oh the lions were 0-16, how can you say we had a harder situation?" Easy....they had all their draft picks and a ton of cap space. They were able to get their QB right away and had a ton of money to get free agents because their cheap owner didn't ever spend money. The salary cap penalty is unprecidented in its size and efffect. It was truely damaging. I'd love to see some of these other teams mentioned have to go through that and see what the effect would be. I know that several of those teams you mention would have suffered a major setback if they had to deal with that the day free agency started.

[Ned Flanders]

Really? Matt Millen running the show wasn't a circus?

You do realize they were 0-16 and the fans staged a protest to get the front office canned? Mike Williams and Charles Johnson in the first round?

If you are really trying to tell me that Schwartz entered a better situation, I will just have to vehemently disagree with that.

Schwartz had some great low draft picks, and an owner not named Snyder. IMO, he came into a better situation. It's not hard to improve on 0-16.

[kleese]

Cali--- The Texans and Titans are good examples, but again, while those teams took longer, the were competiting and lingering around the 8-8 mark, competing into December, etc. the hypotheticals were are discussing are two more 4-12/5-11 type seasons, which to me will be somewhere between very concerning and unnaceptable.

And the timetable for rookie QB's has changed. All of the process has been sped up. Andy Dalton is another example of a rookie QB having playoff success immeidately. Different situation, sure. But it's not like he went to some stacked juggernaut roster either.

If in 2013 Shanny and RG3 are struggling to get to 6-7 wins, there is a flaw somewhere.

---------- Post added August-20th-2012 at 07:05 AM ----------

Schwartz had some great low draft picks, and an owner not named Snyder. IMO, he came into a better situation. It's not hard to improve on 0-16.

OK man, if you're trying to tell me that Millen put the Lions job on a tee for Schwartz we will just have to disagree

[Califan007 The Constipated]

But you can't just post records in a vaccumm. Look at cap space, look at age of team. We had the worst starting point argueably of any team you mention. No cap space, old team, no depth, limited draft picks. Then add in the CBA in year one with no free agents at all hardly, next year is the lockout and then this year 18 million(18 million!!!!!) in cap space taken away right as free agency starts. That increases the difficulty of the job exponentially. People will say "oh the lions were 0-16, how can you say we had a harder situation?" Easy....they had all their draft picks and a ton of cap space. They were able to get their QB right away and had a ton of money to get free agents because their cheap owner didn't ever spend money. The salary cap penalty is unprecidented in its size and efffect. It was truely damaging. I'd love to see some of these other teams mentioned have to go through that and see what the effect would be. I know that several of those teams you mention would have suffered a major setback if they had to deal with that the day free agency started.

Excellent points :applause:...

If I had time, I'd do a comparison between the rosters inherited by each of those new regimes kleese mentioned. I'm pretty secure in believing the results would show that the roster Shanahan inherited on the Redskins was older and less talented than the rest. I'm pretty sure we'd see more players cut by Shanahan during his first two years than by any of the other new regimes on the other teams...and that the roster Shanahan inherited had more players out of the league within 2 years of being cut from the roster than any of the other teams...and by a sizeable margin.

The lack of a normal offseason and now a ****load of cap space were all definitely unique to Shanahan.

[2cents]

Schwartz had some great low draft picks, and an owner not named Snyder. IMO, he came into a better situation. It's not hard to improve on 0-16.

And Millen got fired and the got a GM (former Skin btw) and that's when they got better. Yes, I would say,and did above, the Lions did have a MUCH better situation. Cap space and picks equal much easier rebuild.

[Renegade7]

No, because even though I'd be pissed, we need to change our culture of pulling the cord when we get too impatient. He's also had a weird couple years here with the lockout and the Mara money grab that cost us #36 million in cap space (money that could've been used on the oline). If we don't at least to the playoffs by his 5th year, I wouldn't renew it. But this is definitely a rebuild; 3rd year here and our of 90 players in camp, only 15 were here before Shanny got hired...