Obamacare...(new title): GOP DEATH PLAN: Don-Ryan's Express

[Kilmer17]

1 minute ago, Cooked Crack said:

The real problem as always is liberal hypocrisy.

Well that's certainly part of the problem.  But it's more the liberal hysteria.

Edited July 25, 2017 by Kilmer17

[Burgold]

1 minute ago, Kilmer17 said:

I agree we're ****ed.  I'm just smart enough to realize one side isnt solely to blame.  Enjoy your glass house.

So what role do the Dems have in this?

 

They passed their health reform taking in ideas from Republicans, bending over backwards to get Republicans to join in, and holding months of hearing where everything could be torn apart or embraced.

 

The Republicans have done everything in their power to exclude Democrats from this process. They also excluded every female GOP member from any part in its creation. They wrote their bill in secret. They try to speed it through without hearings or any rigor, but despite that the bill they crafted is worse than Chernobyl by everyone's accounting.

 

Where is the blame for the Democrats in this? What could they have possibly done here? McConnell actually even threatened his Republicans by saying if they don't vote on this they might have to work with Democrats (confirming that up 'til now they have not and refused to).

[Heisenberg]

6 minutes ago, Kilmer17 said:

I agree we're ****ed.  I'm just smart enough to realize one side isnt solely to blame.  Enjoy your glass house.

 

On the issue of the healthcare debacle I'd certainly have to disagree.  The difference between this and how the ACA was passed is night and day.  I'm sure you wouldn't have been up in arms if Dems had attempted to pass UHC or something like it in similar fashion.

 

Whatever makes you feel better, I guess.

[Llevron]

Just now, Kilmer17 said:

I agree we're ****ed.  I'm just smart enough to realize one side isnt solely to blame.  Enjoy your glass house.

 

Don't kid yourself playa. You ain't smarter than anyone else just because you tell yourself you are. In fact you are making a damn good case for otherwise. Not only that, but you are derailing the conversation in the most classic of Republican ways, so that your lack of understanding of the current topic isnt as obvious. Unfortunately for you anyone with a functional pair of eyes can see you provide little to the conversation at this point. 

 

Tell us how they are saving the country with this **** or step off. You are providing nothing with the rest of your commentary. 

 

Anyway, they should be trying to fix the current health care system. Instead they are trying to start over with zero plan of how to go forward. Its honestly the dumbest thing ever. 

[TradeTheBeal!]

6 minutes ago, Cooked Crack said:

The real problem as always is liberal hypocrisy.

 

The dreaded "Liberal Hypocrisy"!  Don't forget about "Political Correctness"...destroyer of humanity, that one.

[Kilmer17]

Just now, Burgold said:

So what role do the Dems have in this?

 

They passed their health reform taking in ideas from Republicans, bending over backwards to get Republicans to join in, and holding months of hearing where everything could be torn apart or embraced.

 

The Republicans have done everything in their power to exclude Democrats from this process. They also excluded every female GOP member from any part in its creation. They wrote their bill in secret. They try to speed it through without hearings or any rigor, but despite that the bill they crafted is worse than Chernobyl by everyone's accounting.

 

Where is the blame for the Democrats in this? What could they have possibly done here? McConnell actually even threatened his Republicans by saying if they don't vote on this they might have to work with Democrats (confirming that up 'til now they have not and refused to).

Your premise is part of the problem.  The Dems passed this disaster on their own.  The GOP didnt want it in any fashion.  They made that clear the whole time.  In the end, they used reconciliation to get the bill complete.  That's the start of it.  So stop trying to make the Dems out to be some valliant warriors in this process.

 

What can the Dems do now?  Stop the hysteria.  Stop claiming any attempt to repeal and replace it will kill people.  Stop telling people that they should like it.  Stop denying the impact the ACA has had on marketplaces and premiums across the country.  

 

 

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

12 minutes ago, Kilmer17 said:

Well that's certainly part of the problem.  But it's more the liberal hysteria.

The real problem isn't (I'm tired of typing out the list but just insert all of Trump and the GOP's bull**** here), the problem is that liberals are upset about it. Gotcha.

Edited July 25, 2017 by Sacks 'n' Stuff

[Kilmer17]

6 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

Don't kid yourself playa. You ain't smarter than anyone else just because you tell yourself you are. In fact you are making a damn good case for otherwise. Not only that, but you are derailing the conversation in the most classic of Republican ways, so that your lack of understanding of the current topic isnt as obvious. Unfortunately for you anyone with a functional pair of eyes can see you provide little to the conversation at this point. 

 

Tell us how they are saving the country with this **** or step off. You are providing nothing with the rest of your commentary. 

 

Anyway, they should be trying to fix the current health care system. Instead they are trying to start over with zero plan of how to go forward. Its honestly the dumbest thing ever. 

Oh Im not kidding myself.  And I certainly know their are plenty of people here smarter than me.  Those are usually easily identified by their willingness to debate a topic without insults and logical fallacies.

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

2 minutes ago, Kilmer17 said:

What can the Dems do now? 1. Stop the hysteria.  2. Stop claiming any attempt to repeal and replace it will kill people. 3 Stop telling people that they should like it.  Stop denying the impact the ACA has had on marketplaces and premiums across the country. 

1. It's justified.

2. You want them to lie? All of the ones presented by the GOP so far would.

3. That's not what's happening.

 

And by dems, do you mean every expert in the sector? They all say that the a GOP's proposals are wretched.

[Kilmer17]

Just now, Sacks 'n' Stuff said:

1. It's justified.

2. You want them to lie? All of the ones presented by the GOP so far would.

3. That's not what's happening.

 

And by dems, do you mean every expert in the sector? They all say that the a GOP's proposals are wretched.

And that's why nothing gets done.  We cant even agree about what we disagree about.

[ExoDus84]

7 minutes ago, Kilmer17 said:

What can the Dems do now?  Stop the hysteria.  Stop claiming any attempt to repeal and replace it will kill people.  Stop telling people that they should like it.  Stop denying the impact the ACA has had on marketplaces and premiums across the country. 

 

So Dems should not be up in arms, and should embrace the Republicans' plans that would, by the CBO's own admission, make drastic cuts to medicaid and throw between 23-33 million people off of healthcare? Why should Democrats be ok with that? Where is this bi-partisan effort by Republicans to craft better legislation for the country? The "Repeal and Replace" is bad for the country. The "Repeal Only" is bad for the country. Don't fault D's for pointing at a pile of **** and calling it a pile of ****. Let's not pretend what the R's are trying to pass is good legislation.

 

Like I said previously, if Republicans want a huge political victory, and something that would have broad support, take up the UHC or single payer ideas.

Edited July 25, 2017 by ExoDus84

[Heisenberg]

Pretty much everyone agrees the ACA requires fixing.

 

I'm not sure how that is "telling people that they should like it".

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

1 minute ago, Kilmer17 said:

And that's why nothing gets done.  We cant even agree about what we disagree about.

Well I mean, nobody's stopping you from agreeing with me. I'd agree with you but then we'd both be wrong.

[Kilmer17]

1 minute ago, ExoDus84 said:

 

So Dems should not be up in arms, and should embrace the Republicans' plans that would, by the CBO's own admission, make drastic cuts to medicaid and throw between 23-33 million people off of healthcare? Why should Democrats be ok with that? Where is this bi-partisan effort by Republicans to craft better legislation for the country? The "Repeal and Replace" is bad for the country. The "Repeal Only" is bad for the country. Don't fault D's for pointing at a pile of **** and calling it a pile of ****. Let's not pretend what the R's are trying to pass is good legislation.

What would you think is "good legislation" from the GOP?

[Heisenberg]

Just now, Kilmer17 said:

What would you think is "good legislation" from the GOP?

 

I'm assuming most reasonable people would be fixing the portions of ACA that aren't working as expected or intended as opposed to scrapping the entire thing just because it happens to be an Obama accomplishment and despite the fact that they have had 8+ years to draft a better solution and been unable to.

 

If I had to guess.

[ExoDus84]

Just now, Kilmer17 said:

What would you think is "good legislation" from the GOP?

 

Something that wouldn't toss tens of millions of people off their health coverage and potentially double premiums? I'm basing this around the CBO's analysis. I don't care if it's an entirely new system, or fixing what's already there. If third party, bi-partisan analysis says a plan is good, I can get behind it. No independent outlet has said the Republican plans are any good. None.

Edited July 25, 2017 by ExoDus84

[Kilmer17]

Just now, Heisenberg said:

 

I'm assuming most reasonable people would be fixing the portions of ACA that aren't working as expected or intended as opposed to scrapping the entire thing just because it happens to be an Obama accomplishment and despite the fact that they have had 8+ years to draft a better solution and been unable to.

 

If I had to guess.

So again, what would you think is a good fix by the GOP?  

Just now, ExoDus84 said:

 

Something that wouldn't toss tens of millions of people off their health coverage and potentially double premiums? I'm basing this around the CBO's analysis. If third party, bi-partisan analysis says a plan is good, I can get behind it. No independent outlet has said the Republican plans are good. None.

So, what would that be?

 

And FWIW, I've said all along the GOP plan is complete crap.

[Heisenberg]

1 minute ago, Kilmer17 said:

So again, what would you think is a good fix by the GOP?  

 

As I said, attempting to fix issues with the current plan would be the most preferable.  Fixes such as making adjustments to make it more affordable/enticing for younger people, copying places like Maryland that have restricted hospitals from charging different rates for different providers, restricting the near-monopolies being created by mergers in many health systems, and many others I'm sure would be seen as achievable reform that could help people.

 

I'm sure there are many others.  But no, let's just scrap everything and maybe start over or maybe implement a much worse plan.  Who cares?

[bcl05]

2 minutes ago, Kilmer17 said:

What would you think is "good legislation" from the GOP?

 

Any legislation that improves our health care system.  Improving healthcare means both increasing access to care (shrinking the uninsured and improving coverage for those who have it) and decreasing costs.  Obamacare did a good job (but not as good as hoped for) at increasing access but did not do much at decreasing costs.  The GOP has an excellent opportunity to improve the lives of Americans by taking the beneficial parts of Obamacare and bolstering them while addressing Obamacare's deficiencies.  They control the white house and both houses of congress.  They could pass a good health care bill, if they had any desire to.   Instead, they seem to have chosen to dismantle health care 20+ million americans because they don't want Obama to have any measurable legacy.  Or some reason.  They have not articulated any vision for what their ideal (or even goal) version of a health care system is, and don't seem to have any qualms about making it far worse for many people.  

[ExoDus84]

Just now, Kilmer17 said:

So again, what would you think is a good fix by the GOP?  

So, what would that be?

 

And FWIW, I've said all along the GOP plan is complete crap.

 

I don't think I'm being vague. A "good fix" is anything better than what we currently have. Does a new system (or ammendments to the current ACA) still provide good coverage? Does it expand coverage to those that don't have it now? Does it lower the rate of premium increases? Is it affordable?

 

You've been criticizing Democrats for their behavior on this bill, yet you admit the bill is total crap. Until a better piece of legislation comes out, expect more of the same.

[Burgold]

17 minutes ago, Kilmer17 said:

Your premise is part of the problem.  The Dems passed this disaster on their own.  The GOP didnt want it in any fashion.  They made that clear the whole time.  In the end, they used reconciliation to get the bill complete.  That's the start of it.  So stop trying to make the Dems out to be some valliant warriors in this process.

 

What can the Dems do now?  Stop the hysteria.  Stop claiming any attempt to repeal and replace it will kill people.  Stop telling people that they should like it.  Stop denying the impact the ACA has had on marketplaces and premiums across the country.  

 

 

That's partly bull and you know it.

 

How many Republican compromises did the Dems accept into the bill so they could get a few Republicans to sign onto it? The ACA is based on a Republican bill (Romneycare) that had been endorsed by Conservative think tanks for years until the Dems took it up.

 

As for your suggestion that the Dems roll down and die and stop fighting it... that's absurd. This isn't Sarah Panel and her death panels. This is practically every economist, health organization, and economist in the nation decrying how bad this plan is. There will be people dying if this is passed. There will be millions losing coverage. It's not hyperbole. It isn't hysteria. It's terrible legislation.

 

Now, I do agree that the ACA has had an impact on marketplaces and premiums, but we also know that some of the negative impact is due to Republican sabotaging of the ACA. 

[The Evil Genius]

9 minutes ago, Kilmer17 said:

 

And FWIW, I've said all along the GOP plan is complete crap.

 

Then why support nuking what's in place?

[Popeman38]

The problem with expecting the GOP to "repair" the ACA is that it is known as Obamacare.  As petty and stupid as that is, the GOP will NEVER repair the ACA because in 25 years it will still be called Obamacare and credited to the Dems, no matter how overhauled it gets.  And if it was called Reagancare (I was gonna say Bushcare but my mind went exactly where all of yours went lol) and the Dems wanted to fix it there is no way in hell they would repair it and continue to give the GOP credit for it. That is where we are politically in this country. If the other team gets credit for it = bad for the country. No more, no less.

[Cooked Crack]

40 minutes ago, Kilmer17 said:

Well that's certainly part of the problem.  But it's more the liberal hysteria.

My bad. The real problem as always is liberal hysteria.

 

Am I doing it right?

[Burgold]

 

2 minutes ago, Popeman38 said:

The problem with expecting the GOP to "repair" the ACA is that it is known as Obamacare.  As petty and stupid as that is, the GOP will NEVER repair the ACA because in 25 years it will still be called Obamacare and credited to the Dems, no matter how overhauled it gets.  And if it was called Reagancare (I was gonna say Bushcare but my mind went exactly where all of yours went lol) and the Dems wanted to fix it there is no way in hell they would repair it and continue to give the GOP credit for it. That is where we are politically in this country. If the other team gets credit for it = bad for the country. No more, no less.

The problem with this argument is that it isn't named Obamacare. The Republicans dubbed it that. They did that strictly so that they could gin up their base against it.

 

I do agree with you that they are against it 90% because it was something the Democrats did. They have a scorched earth policy when it comes to anything Obama touched. It's really sad.