Do you believe in existence of souls, and why?

[Destino]

So, unless man does it, it doesn't count, because the bible says that we were created in gods image and everything on this planet is a subspecies, just put here for us to do whatever we want with, right?

Yup. EXACTLY. Totally hit the nail on the head. That's what the bible says.

[The Sisko]

You have to define "art" as more than placing a wet paint brush against a flat surface.

OK, well there goes most modern art.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Yup. EXACTLY. Totally hit the nail on the head. That's what the bible says.

Hmmmmmm.......

[Koolblue13]

You don't understand WHAT line of thinking? lol...You just agreed with me. If you don't understand what I said, why did you agree with me?

I miss read. I thought you were saying animals can't create art and song.

---------- Post added May-14th-2012 at 10:00 AM ----------

It is the last part of your statement that makes it false. Creation is not here for humanity to do with it what we want, instead humanity was put here and given the job of care taker of creation, that's the part where the strawman is created.

Okay, so how do "good christians" condone and and participate in the suffering of animals in the factory farming industry that has been well documented, pollution and garbage that amounts to 10's of millions of sea creatures dieing every year the deforesting that also lends to the suffering of critters and extinctions as well? If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem, right?

[Califan007 The Constipated]

I miss read. I thought you were saying animals can't create art and song.

Well, I said animals can do things purposefully...I didn't say they could sing or create art. But since they can do things purposefully, there is at least the possibility. I just can't say whether or not it has ever happened...and birds chirping or elephants holding a paint brush in their trunk and splashing some red on a canvas does not automatically mean "art".

We call what birds do as "singing" because we apply our human traits to animals, even if they don't possess them.

---------- Post added May-14th-2012 at 07:03 AM ----------

OK, well there goes most modern art.

LoL...I think you're thinking of GOOD art

[twa]

Okay, so how do "good christians" condone and and participate in the suffering of animals in the factory farming industry that has been well documented, pollution and garbage that amounts to 10's of millions of sea creatures dieing every year the deforesting that also lends to the suffering of critters and extinctions as well? If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem, right?

If you start off with there are 'none good'....then stir in free will ,it becomes much easier to understand

ASF is right on we are directed to be good stewards....unfortunately we handle that about as well as most other directives

[AsburySkinsFan]

Okay, so how do "good christians" condone and and participate in the suffering of animals in the factory farming industry that has been well documented, pollution and garbage that amounts to 10's of millions of sea creatures dieing every year the deforesting that also lends to the suffering of critters and extinctions as well? If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem, right?

You mean apart from teaching Christians about sustainable and humane farming, hormone and pesticide free farming practices, environmentally responsible renewable farming and energy sources etc...etc....etc....etc..sorry bro but you're preaching to the choir here. I'd like to take you to a local restaurant here in "good Christian" country where the owner is all about green farming and only uses locally produced green and hormone free foods for his menu, he's connected with Marksbury Farms here in Kentucky and together they are finding themselves quite successful. But hey us Christians just want to rape and pillage and destroy the planet while we club baby seal and crap in the oceans.

http://marksburyfarm.com/

https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Bluebird/171240956318673

But, that's not the only place you're wrong, #1 your bias is showing through your snark, #2 you're completely off topic with your rant.

[Koolblue13]

Well, I said animals can do things purposefully...I didn't say they could sing or create art. But since they can do things purposefully, there is at least the possibility. I just can't say whether or not it has ever happened...and birds chirping or elephants holding a paint brush in their trunk and splashing some red on a canvas does not automatically mean "art".

We call what birds do as "singing" because we apply our human traits to animals, even if they don't possess them

Have you ever heard Whales sing to each other? It's amazing. Gorillas and some other primates do paint purposefully. Animals do a lot of incredible things.

---------- Post added May-14th-2012 at 10:12 AM ----------

If you start off with there are 'none good'....then stir in free will ,it becomes much easier to understand

ASF is right on we are directed to be good stewards....unfortunately we handle that about as well as most other directives

That makes some sense to me. I've just always felt that maybe without that weekly reset or big ticket off this rock at the end, maybe we'd be better.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Have you ever heard Whales sing to each other? It's amazing. Gorillas and some other primates do paint purposefully. Animals do a lot of incredible things.

1) Why do you call it "singing"?

2) The purposeful aspect to creating art is, again, more than merely putting wet paint brush to canvas. We would have to be certain of the primates' purpose or reasoning to what they do...not simply that they are doing it. But like I said, since animals can indeed do things purposefully, the possibility for them to create are exists. I just don't buy into everything that "looks" like art is being created means that art IS being created. It mostly starts with a clearer definition of "art" that has zero to do with the finished product or the process taken, and has everything to do with the intent of the creation.

[Koolblue13]

You mean apart from teaching Christians about sustainable and humane farming, hormone and pesticide free farming practices, environmentally responsible renewable farming and energy sources etc...etc....etc....etc..sorry bro but you're preaching to the choir here. I'd like to take you to a local restaurant here in "good Christian" country where the owner is all about green farming and only uses locally produced green and hormone free foods for his menu, he's connected with Marksbury Farms here in Kentucky and together they are finding themselves quite successful. But hey us Christians just want to rape and pillage and destroy the planet while we club baby seal and crap in the oceans.

http://marksburyfarm.com/

https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Bluebird/171240956318673

But, that's not the only place you're wrong, #1 your bias is showing through your snark, #2 you're completely off topic with your rant.

A friend of mine, who I just stayed with when I moved to the island just got a job there, so yes I know it. I'd love to eat there and probably will next time I hit America, so sure, you can buy.

Yes the teaching is great, the practice would be better. The majority doesn't.

As to the clubbing baby seals comments, dramatics aside, it's absolutely much much worse than just clubbing some seals and I don't mean GW. It's consumerism, shipping and pollution. Thank Christams that'll never change.

I don't believe in a soul, because I don't believe in a higher power and a lot of it has to do with my views on animals and nature, so it's absolutely on topic.

It's funny this thread came up last night actually. I had just gotten done working an 18 hour Mothers Day shift, which is a day I prefer to spend alone or with friends, because it's always emotional for me, because lately, since I've really been "awoken" (for lack of a better word) and started to pay attention to waste and my consumption, I really miss my Mom a lot more these days. I sat on the beach, looking up at the sky (which is huge and creamy with stars down here) wondering why I don't seem to be able to allow myself to remove the doubt of a higher power and only look past to the greatness of the universe and wonder how much more life is out there.

[twa]

That makes some sense to me. I've just always felt that maybe without that weekly reset or big ticket off this rock at the end, maybe we'd be better.

The weekly reset might be what prevents worse

as far as the ticket off.....why would the notion of future personal non-existence promote better behavior in the present?

I certainly understand the belief that religion has been used to control and direct behavior,but why would the absence of something beyond this life make people make better choices?

[Koolblue13]

1) Why do you call it "singing"?

2) The purposeful aspect to creating art is, again, more than merely putting wet paint brush to canvas. We would have to be certain of the primates' purpose or reasoning to what they do...not simply that they are doing it. But like I said, since animals can indeed do things purposefully, the possibility for them to create are exists. I just don't buy into everything that "looks" like art is being created means that art IS being created. It mostly starts with a clearer definition of "art" that has zero to do with the finished product or the process taken, and has everything to do with the intent of the creation.

I call it singing because that's what it sounds like to me and that's the word in the language I speak. They make tones and sounds, put them together in ways to communicate with one another. Even if it's for just primal things like mating and such, it's still the same difference. Whales and dolphins do it for entertainment and that's been documented. Some whales will sing the same songs and teach it to their children. Elephants dance and teach their offspring to do the same things.

Purpose can vary, do I see Gorillas becoming police sketch artists? No. Do they paint specific things? Yes they have. In captivity more so, but from captivity and suffering doees come better art.

---------- Post added May-14th-2012 at 10:27 AM ----------

The weekly reset might be what prevents worse

as far as the ticket off.....why would the notion of future personal non-existence promote better behavior in the present?

I certainly understand the belief that religion has been used to control and direct behavior,but why would the absence of something beyond this life make people make better choices?

I just meant that maybe if the people who believe in something enough to really care, didn't feel that they'd be moving on, maybe it would make the here and now a little more important.

---------- Post added May-14th-2012 at 10:38 AM ----------

Damn it. I wanted off the computer by 10 am today

I have so much to do.

[AsburySkinsFan]

A friend of mine, who I just stayed with when I moved to the island just got a job there, so yes I know it. I'd love to eat there and probably will next time I hit America, so sure, you can buy.

Yes the teaching is great, the practice would be better. The majority doesn't.

Here's my methodology. Orthodoxy (right thinking) leads to Orthopraxy (right practice), teach well and the practices will follow. We fully support the Bluebird Cafe and Marksbury Farms, and we love that they are finding success in the Bluegrass. Here's the thing I've noticed. Most people when you talk with them one on one really appreciate the ideas and the practices that Marksbury/Bluebird follow, they're smart enough to realize that these things are good and healthy and they too want what's best for their families. Also, when you talk with farmers and hunters (of which we have plenty) they fully understand the importance of being environmentally friendly, after all it is their farms and their livelihood that is in jeopardy, not to mention the wild game. Some of the most environmentally conscious people I know are farmers and hunters (no not the Ted Nugent hunting zoo kind). They know these things are right, its just that for a looooong time there hasn't been the resources or the network for local products to succeed in the market because of what you mention below....

As to the clubbing baby seals comments, dramatics aside, it's absolutely much much worse than just clubbing some seals and I don't mean GW. It's consumerism, shipping and pollution. Thank Christams that'll never change.

I know that song by heart too, and I sing it all the time, but again the corporations for a long time became the only viable way for farmers to get their beef etc to the marketplace as the box stores ran out most of the local mom and pop's, but that's beginning to change. We're seeing a lot more locally owned and operated meat processing and farmer's markets which rely upon locally raised livestock and crops, but often times the price becomes prohibitive because the box stores are able to sell a similar product for less. What's more is that more and more Christians are waking up to the consumerism that has infected our society, and they're taking stands against it. Now, is this the majority of the church in America? No, because most of Protestantism in America is more American than Christian, but we're working to change that. If you start looking at the mainline denominations you'll see strong stances on these very issues and the teaching and preaching reflects those as well.

I don't believe in a soul, because I don't believe in a higher power and a lot of it has to do with my views on animals and nature, so it's absolutely on topic.

Not to nit-pick but your rant was against what you perceive as American Christian practice and not Christian doctrine, which is why it appears out of bounds.

It's funny this thread came up last night actually. I had just gotten done working an 18 hour Mothers Day shift, which is a day I prefer to spend alone or with friends, because it's always emotional for me, because lately, since I've really been "awoken" (for lack of a better word) and started to pay attention to waste and my consumption, I really miss my Mom a lot more these days. I sat on the beach, looking up at the sky (which is huge and creamy with stars down here) wondering why I don't seem to be able to allow myself to remove the doubt of a higher power and only look past to the greatness of the universe and wonder how much more life is out there.

Keep looking up...it's one heck of a view.

[Koolblue13]

ASF, Cheers man. I know it's getting better and I'm glad. It's funny, I get in these types of arguments on my FB page, because I have a pastor, a priest, a rabbi and some born again friends. It's always entertaining.

[AsburySkinsFan]

ASF, Cheers man. I know it's getting better and I'm glad. It's funny, I get in these types of arguments on my FB page, because I have a pastor, a priest, a rabbi and some born again friends. It's always entertaining.

One of the hardest things about the American Church is that it is dominated the congregationalist model where pretty much any one can serve as a pastor and head theological thinker for a congregation with or without what many of us see as the necessary theological training, and those that do tend to find themselves in small "Bible colleges" which too often end up as "group think academies" rather than places of real theological training. Of course I will add the disclaimer that there are always exceptions to the rule, but by in large I feel my experience and view of the landscape is fairly accurate.

[War Paint]

Yes. I believe there is a soul. I think that the human brain is a sophisticated biological computer that is the control center of our biological machine, the body. I think the soul is the data, the 0s and 1s that we accumulate over time, through decisions we make, the experiences we have and the things that makes us who we are. I think at the time of death, that data is transferred to another realm. So while our hardware has died, the data lives on.

[twa]

I like it Warpaint, but perhaps chemical reaction or electric pulse is closer...(open invitation for getting corrected on terminology, hanging curve)

[SWFLSkins]

Monkeys, apes and elephants paint. Whales and birds sing. Art can be found in every living thing. Life happens and it's beautiful. That doesn't mean there is anything or anybody behind it. It is what it is, so make it what you want.

Ever seen a Monkey paint a picture of a Man? I don't discount God's blessing of the animal world. He said to be a caretaker of all his gifts, the earth and all its glory is the greatest of those, this can't be overlooked. I was going to PM a very personal story, however I don't think you are ready for it. I wish you well on your journey. I think we all have a long way to run.

It is what you make it, and right now your making it difficult to disagree with. I appreciate your opinion and share much of it, however I am open to further enlightenment even at my age. lol. You KB seem stuck.

---------- Post added May-14th-2012 at 01:13 PM ----------

And some men sleepwalk through life following the yellow brick road hoping to find a mythical Oz that does not exist.

You base your life off a movie?

[Kosher Ham]

You base your life off a movie?

Why would you think that ? I said some men. Not meaning myself. I was just adding on to your statement.

Would it be any different though if I based my life off a book ? Perhaps one with extreme tragedy and such ? Maybe even a book about fables ?

[SWFLSkins]

Why would you think that ? I said some men. Not meaning myself. I was just adding on to your statement.

Would it be any different though if I based my life off a book ? Perhaps one with extreme tragedy and such ? Maybe even a book about fables ?

Just asking> I mean the similarities are stunning.

[Kosher Ham]

It's within yourself is what Wizard of Oz tells you though.

[Thinking Skins]

And I am merely asking you why you would think brain tumors effecting our personality means there is NOT more to you than your body.

exactly my question

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

It would be nice if the OP of this thread who posed the question wasn't so conspicuous by his absence with his views on the differing responses.

Hail.

[Koala]

Of course we do, the soul is the experiencer, it is not the mind, it is that which is made aware of what the the mind knows.

[Enter Apotheosis]

Without further elaboration it was not fairly obvious. If it was a legitimate question based on the OUT West expereinces, you would have referenced a particular quote that I had made. You want to dance play some music, you want to eat cook some food, you want to apologize for misleading comments, then say sorry, you don't so be it.

I think it is fairly obvious what was intended, if not I apologize, and it should be fairly obvious how it was taken, true intentions aside.

At worst it was a light-hearted jab at the way you phrased your posts but it was also an honest question. Believe me, if I wanted to belittle your experiences and/or beliefs then I would belittle your experiences and/or beliefs. I don't particularly have a reputation for goose-stepping when I find an idea particularly unpleasant, unworthy, or objectionable. It gets me in trouble every now and again but at least you know where I stand.

Guilty as charged. Life experiences not unlike those described by SWFLSkins as well as my own critical thinking led me to the conclusion that the whole God (and by extension, souls) thing just doesn't make sense. I'm always open to changing my mind and I don't have a problem with those who believe otherwise but to me the only way to make any sense of things is without any of that stuff. Moreover, contrary to PokerPacker's comment that it's an unsettling thought, I find the acceptance of that finality liberating and that it makes me appreciate life all the more.

I think it's fairly intellectually troubling to try and fathom what it is to just not have consciousness. Overall, though, I think that accepting that life is just a one and done ordeal is easier than having to ponder the possibility or nature of an afterlife in a lot of ways. That's probably in large part just because I see no compelling evidence that points to an afterlife or, at the very least, one that at all resembles the ones others have envisioned.

This next part should be of interest to EA if he is truly seeking an understanding of the Spirit world the N.A.'s acknowledge in their teachings.

God is not only in a church, he is everywhere. A very interesting read is the Circle of Life by James David Audlin. He is a non-denominational minister who lived with and studied the traditional ways of the Native Americans. One quote in particular sheds some light on organized religion. He talks about the worship place of the N.A. being temporary and that when nature, weather or animals tear in down they move it. The reason is that to connect to God for each individual is unique and can't be controlled by mankind. "The stench of humanity interrupts the connection to God."

If I were particularly religious that would be right in line with the kind of thinking I would endorse.

I thought about that long and hard and really came to the conclusion that in a church people get comfortable and tend to judge others and play politics, thus the stench and the interruption to connect.

Of course. That's just an inherent part of the human condition. I'd argue that the worst and most dangerous byproduct of conventional churches is groupthink, though.

Okay, so how do "good christians" condone and and participate in the suffering of animals in the factory farming industry that has been well documented, pollution and garbage that amounts to 10's of millions of sea creatures dieing every year the deforesting that also lends to the suffering of critters and extinctions as well? If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem, right?

You can be part of the solution and still be part of the problem