The Hill: Opinion: Vote in French presidential election should be a warning for America

[twa]

The difference is our proximity to large numbers of destitute people.

I though Sweden was near the UK?

[ABQCOWBOY]

Those numbers you pull for income distribution are a result of the difference in economic system. The United States has appallingly bad social mobility and that shows in your statistics.

I agree but more to the point, in the kinds of people each country brings in from other Countries. When Sweden allows somebody to become a citizen, they are not poor and unskilled, for the most part. In the U.S., a great many of them are. The social mobility characteristics fo the situation have more to do with the time it takes American "Immigrants" to achieve an equal skill level to the immigrants Sweden accepts into their National Citizenship pool.

[jpyaks3]

I agree but more to the point, in the kinds of people each country brings in from other Countries. When Sweden allows somebody to become a citizen, they are not poor and unskilled, for the most part. In the U.S., a great many of them are. The social mobility characteristics fo the situation have more to do with the time it takes American "Immigrants" to achieve an equal skill level to the immigrants Sweden accepts into their National Citizenship pool.

But that doesn't explain the terrible social mobility statistics for American citizens. Yes immigrants tend to have it worse but our social mobility statistics are bad across the board. The problem isn't with the "quality" of the immigrants it's with our system.

[DjTj]

Basically, this suggests that per capita, more people are working to contribute in Sweden and the burden is distributed much more evenly then here in the U.S., which suggests to me that the immigrant population for Sweden is a much more skilled labor force then here in the U.S.. All of these would seem to confirm what I originally said. Sweden controls their immigration much more tightly then we do here. They bring in people who fit a need in their society. They are not taking the poor, tired huddled masses.

The United States has one of the most highly skilled, highly educated immigrant populations in the world. We have historically done much better at attracting talented immigrants than other countries.

A December study from the National Foundation for American Policy found that almost half of the top 50 venture-funded firms in America were founded or co-founded by an immigrant. Out of these firms, 37 had at least one immigrant in a high-level management position, such as chief technology officer.

Silicon Valley is filled with hot startups founded by foreigners. The textbook-rental service Chegg was created by Indian Aayush Phumbhra and Briton Osman Rashid. Etsy — the incredibly successful online craft marketplace — is the brainchild of Swiss entrepreneur Haim Schoppik. The giant web publisher Glam Media was founded by Indians Samir Arora and Raj Narayan.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2012/05/01/immigrants-are-the-lifeblood-of-u-s-startups/

[zoony]

The United States has one of the most highly skilled, highly educated immigrant populations in the world. We have historically done much better at attracting talented immigrants than other countries.

How do you explain Corcaigh?

Thanks, I'll be here all week.

[Corcaigh]

I though Sweden was near the UK?

It would only count as "near" if you can swim for hundreds of miles in a cold northern ocean.

[ABQCOWBOY]

So you are talking entirely about illegal immigration? Sweden certainly doesn't have closed borders and has a far more pro illegal immigrant policies than the USA. The difference is our proximity to large numbers of destitute people.

In the case of the U.S., yes. In the case of Sweden, not really, which is why I make the point that comparing Sweden to the U.S., in terms of being able to effectively manage a Social Government is apples and oranges. In fact, they do have closed boarders, and it works like this.

http://www.noborderstockholm.org/news/the-irony-of-open-borders-detention-centers-in-sweden/

However, I do agree with you on the point of proximity of large numbers of destitute people, which is why it's much easier to get citizen ship in Sweden if you are of Scandinavian descent as I stated earlier in this thread.

---------- Post added May-7th-2012 at 02:50 PM ----------

But that doesn't explain the terrible social mobility statistics for American citizens. Yes immigrants tend to have it worse but our social mobility statistics are bad across the board. The problem isn't with the "quality" of the immigrants it's with our system.

I don't agree. Illegals are much less skilled then are the targeted immigrants that are provided citizenship in Sweden. That's a fact. Now, you can say that there is a problem with our system and that may be correct or it may not but it is certainly a different discussion. However, part of the reason we have a problem with this in the U.S. is because we are not seeing people who are highly educated or skilled as part of that immigrant population. The curve is much greater for the illegals as opposed to those who are brought into Sweden, as example. It is a huge contributing factor.

---------- Post added May-7th-2012 at 02:52 PM ----------

The United States has one of the most highly skilled, highly educated immigrant populations in the world. We have historically done much better at attracting talented immigrants than other countries.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2012/05/01/immigrants-are-the-lifeblood-of-u-s-startups/

That may be true but it doesn't have anything to do with the fact that Socialism in Sweden works because they have a much tighter control of their immigrant population then does the U.S. If we can't control our immigration population, Social Government will not work here.

[DjTj]

How do you explain Corcaigh?

Apparently we got stuck with him because he lived on an island in the North Atlantic but didn't like swimming.

In the case of the U.S., yes. In the case of Sweden, not really, which is why I make the point that comparing Sweden to the U.S., in terms of being able to effectively manage a Social Government is apples and oranges. In fact, they do have closed boarders, and it works like this.

http://www.noborderstockholm.org/news/the-irony-of-open-borders-detention-centers-in-sweden/

That's nothing compared to the system of immigration detention centers in the U.S.

http://www.ice.gov/detention-facilities/

[Corcaigh]

http://www.noborderstockholm.org/news/the-irony-of-open-borders-detention-centers-in-sweden/

From a website called noborder in the name ... and according the silly article ... in the whole of Sweden they have room to lock up 230 detainees?

The percentage of foreign-born people living in Sweden is actually HIGHER than in the USA. Closed borders indeed.

[jpyaks3]

I don't agree. Illegals are much less skilled then are the targeted immigrants that are provided citizenship in Sweden. That's a fact. Now, you can say that there is a problem with our system and that may be correct or it may not but it is certainly a different discussion. However, part of the reason we have a problem with this in the U.S. is because we are not seeing people who are highly educated or skilled as part of that immigrant population. The curve is much greater for the illegals as opposed to those who are brought into Sweden, as example. It is a huge contributing factor.

So how do you explain the lack of social mobility of Americans that are not immigrants? They have similarly bad social mobility numbers so it can't simply be unskilled immigrants. You can't point to income distribution numbers and use them without looking at what role the system plays in creating those numbers. The United States has horrible income distribution and social mobility numbers compared to the rest of the industrialized world and you can't blame immigrants for that since the numbers are just as bad for native born Americans.

[ABQCOWBOY]

That's nothing compared to the system of immigration detention centers in the U.S.

http://www.ice.gov/detention-facilities/

In like fashion, the numbers they have to deal with that come to Sweden illegally or the boarder area they have to safe guard also pale in comparison.

Getting back to the actual point, Sweden does have a closed boarder policy and it is becoming more closed with each passing year.

[Corcaigh]

How do you explain Corcaigh?

I am highy educated, in science and engineering. But that no doubt looks like witchcraft and black magic to you native-born 'mericans.

[DjTj]

In like fashion, the numbers they have to deal with that come to Sweden illegally or the boarder area they have to safe guard also pale in comparison.

Getting back to the actual point, Sweden does have a closed boarder policy and it is becoming more closed with each passing year.

The same thing has been happening in the United States. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/07/25/AR2010072501790.html

[ABQCOWBOY]

From a website called noborder in the name ... and according the silly article ... in the whole of Sweden they have room to lock up 230 detainees?

The percentage of foreign-born people living in Sweden is actually HIGHER than in the USA. Closed borders indeed.

It is one of multiple sites, they actually do deport people in Sweden and they jail them to the tune of 20% and the site you refer to is not credible because why?

Where do you get your foreigh born statistic and what does that have to do with becoming a citizen?

---------- Post added May-7th-2012 at 03:04 PM ----------

The same thing has been happening in the United States. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/07/25/AR2010072501790.html

It has to. We can no longer support the influx of illegals. I am not surprised.

[DjTj]

It has to. We can no longer support the influx of illegals. I am not surprised.

Luckily for us, our economy sucks so much that illegals are leaving on their own.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/net-migration-mexico-dips-zero-143325289.html

[mcsluggo]

that stat is a little bit apple and oranges, in any case. Sweden is a relatively small country within a common market with fully open borders. If you counted people that were born in Michigan but settled in Florida as "immigrants" you would come closer to capturing a comprable statistic (although, we THEORETICALLY don't have a language border between Florida and Michigan)

[ABQCOWBOY]

Luckily for us, our economy sucks so much that illegals are leaving on their own.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/net-migration-mexico-dips-zero-143325289.html

I'm not sure how well that speaks of the "imigants", per say. It's not a popular point of view, I know, but I have seen illegals come to the U.S. for years and work here, send their money home to Mexico and then leave back. I have never felt like they were here because they wanted to be Americans. I always felt like they just wanted the work. I understand that point of view but I don't think it's real Pro U.S.

[DjTj]

I'm not sure how well that speaks of the "imigants", per say. It's not a popular point of view, I know, but I have seen illegals come to the U.S. for years and work here, send their money home to Mexico and then leave back. I have never felt like they were here because they wanted to be Americans. I always felt like they just wanted the work. I understand that point of view but I don't think it's real Pro U.S.

If we want them to be pro-US, then we should welcome them inoffer them a chance to be citizens. If we want them to be anti-US, then we should pay them in cash, pass laws that make it difficult for them to settle down, and try to kick them out of the country. That seems to be working pretty well.

[ABQCOWBOY]

If we want them to be pro-US, then we should welcome them inoffer them a chance to be citizens. If we want them to be anti-US, then we should pay them in cash, pass laws that make it difficult for them to settle down, and try to kick them out of the country. That seems to be working pretty well.

We do do that but we insist that it be done legally. I guess that's the part that is discouraging. For the record, we have offered citizen ship with no strings but it did not solve the problem so I guess we could turn that whole "That seems to be working pretty well" quote around and reexamine it.from a different perspective.

I don't know why we are so self absorbed as to think that everybody wants to be American or live in America. It's just not the case. Sure, there are those who do but there are a great many who don't.

[DjTj]

We do do that put we insist that it be done legally. I guess that's the part that is discouraging.

But legally means only if you are a highly skilled immigrant or related to a citizen.

For the record, we have offered citizen ship with no strings but it did not solve the problem so I guess we could turn that whole "That seems to be working pretty well" quote around and reexamine it.from a different perspective.

When have we offered citizenship with no strings attached? Reagan gave post hoc amnesty to illegals, but there has never been a "no strings attached" path for illegal immigrants to become citizens. Actually, in recent years we haven't even offered a "strings attached" path to citizenship. The only path is to continue living in the shadows.

I don't know why we are so self absorbed as to think that everybody wants to be American or live in America. It's just not the case. Sure, there are those who do but there are a great many who don't.

I don't think everyone wants to be an American or live in America. But I do think that the people who cross the border into America want to live in America. And I think that the longer they live here, more and more of them want to be American. Because I think America is pretty great, and it's hard not to notice if after you've been here a while. If you think that's self-absorbed, then all I have to say is, "America! **** Yeah!"

[grhqofb5]

If we want them to be pro-US, then we should welcome them inoffer them a chance to be citizens. If we want them to be anti-US, then we should pay them in cash, pass laws that make it difficult for them to settle down, and try to kick them out of the country. That seems to be working pretty well.

No way, back to the pile!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=768h3Tz4Qik

[twa]

I am highy educated, in science and engineering. But that no doubt looks like witchcraft and black magic to you native-born 'mericans.

Well ....you obviously don't float.

[ABQCOWBOY]

But legally means only if you are a highly skilled immigrant or related to a citizen. When have we offered citizenship with no strings attached? Reagan gave post hoc amnesty to illegals, but there has never been a "no strings attached" path for illegal immigrants to become citizens. Actually, in recent years we haven't even offered a "strings attached" path to citizenship. The only path is to continue living in the shadows.

What is wrong with having skills in order to come to a country? I don't think it means you must have skills. I think it means that there are only so many that can be allowed before we start failing the system. To me, that's a responsible approach. Post Hoc or not, it didn't work. There were no strings attached to the Amnesty as far as I am aware, to the immigrants. If you were here, you got amnesty. I can think of nothing anymore no strings attached then that. Now, politically, there were absolutely strings but the agreement was never held up so even that had no strings.

I don't think everyone wants to be an American or live in America. But I do think that the people who cross the border into America want to live in America. And I think that the longer they live here, more and more of them want to be American. Because I think America is pretty great, and it's hard not to notice if after you've been here a while. If you think that's self-absorbed, then all I have to say is, "America! **** Yeah!"

Well, all I can tell you is that I have lived with them since I was a small boy, I have gone to school with them, I have worked with them, I shop at the same stores, I go to the same restaurants, I know the situation pretty dang well. They don't all want to live here. Many, many work here, send money home and live back in Mexico. Many do not want to work legally. They want to work for money under the table because they don't want to pay taxes. They will tell you this right up front in many cases. I will not labor the point because I don't know that I can say any more then this. Not all, but many. You are free to believe what you wish.

[Larry]

We do do that but we insist that it be done legally.

Uh, the problem with the "they should come here legally" line is that the only way to come here legally is if you;re a Doctor or an Engineer, or if you're the immediate family of a US Citizen and have waited 20 years.

If you want to nail shingles onto roofs in the summer sun, then there simply isn't any legal option for you.

For the record, we have offered citizen ship with no strings . . .

Uh, you know where I could get a copy of that record?

[ABQCOWBOY]

Uh, the problem with the "they should come here legally" line is that the only way to come here legally is if you;re a Doctor or an Engineer, or if you're the immediate family of a US Citizen and have waited 20 years.

I'm going to guess that you are not serious in the statement that is highlighted and are just using this as a metaphor, so to speak. I am aware of no such limitation on becoming a U.S. citizen. I do agree that it has gotten tougher but I would guess that if we had not adopted such an open policy for illegals over the past several years, it probably would not have become nearly as stringent. Be that as it may, I don't think the qualifications are unreasonable.

If you want to nail shingles onto roofs in the summer sun, then there simply isn't any legal option for you.

On the other hand, if you do not do it legally, then you are probably going to spend a good part of your early life in this country doing exactly that. I've done roofing before and I am a citizen. It's not just for illegals. Everybody has to start somewhere.

Uh, you know where I could get a copy of that record?

I'm pretty sure that record was destroyed Larry. I wish it weren't thou.