NFL.COM: Giants Targeted 49ers Williams in Playoffs

[HailGreen28]

The part where it's different from Donte Whitner talking about taking a guy out of game.

Because Donte Whitner didn't talking about giving a player a concussion, or bragging about a player suffering a brain injury, or making any kind of hit the league is cracking down on. Like the classless dirty Giant players did. Whitner even clarified his remarks to mean legal hits, unlike the dirty classless Giants talking about head injuries.

"The thing is, we knew he had four concussions, so that was our biggest thing, was to take him outta the game." - Giants player Jacquian Williams.

"Sash did a great job hitting him early and he looked kind of dazed when he got up. I feel like that made a difference and he coughed it up.” - Giants player Devin Thomas.

Those dirty Giants players talked the same as Gregg Williams did, and actually carried it out, and then bragged about it. They and probably other Gnat players should get the same punishment Gregg Williams got. If punishments were handed out evenly, that is.

Anyone who doesn't understand the difference between the dirty classless Giants players bragging about targeting and inflicting a head injury, and a generic "take a player out of the game" the way it's been used for decades, is delusional. And maybe just trying to use semantics to cover for the dirty classless Giants. Maybe some people just don't understand football, and why what Gregg Williams and the dirty classless Giants players did is different than normal hard hitting play. :whoknows:

[AmishGangsta]

[sarcasm]This just in, Mara will be penalizing the Giants - he's adding another home game to their schedule.[/sarcasm]

j/k That could never happen could it? Oh wait...

[Big Blue Joe]

Because Donte Whitner didn't talking about giving a player a concussion, or bragging about a player suffering a brain injury, or making any kind of hit the league is cracking down on. Like the classless dirty Giant players did. Whitner even clarified his remarks to mean legal hits, unlike the dirty classless Giants talking about head injuries.

And the hit by Tyler Sash was also legal. So there is no difference. If Kyle Williams was not healthy enough to take clean, legal hits, that's not really the Giants' problem. That's on Williams and the 49ers. The Giants aren't going to forfeit or let the punt returner run by them, untouched, just because the 49ers were willing to put him in harm's way.

Anyone who doesn't understand the difference between the dirty classless Giants players bragging about targeting and inflicting a head injury, and a generic "take a player out of the game" the way it's been used for decades, is delusional. And maybe just trying to use semantics to cover for the dirty classless Giants. Maybe some people just don't understand football, and why what Gregg Williams and the dirty classless Giants players did is different than normal hard hitting play. :whoknows:

Although, I do get a kick out of you claiming the Giants are classless on this matter, when the Skins employed Gregg Williams for 4 years and paid him to implement his bounty system in DC.

[KDawg]

when the Skins employed Gregg Williams for 4 years and paid him to implement his bounty system in DC.

You're such a ****ing troll it's hilarious. By all accounts, Gibbs had no idea it was going on. We paid him to coach football. He put in a bounty system.

Now, go away.

[Hitman21ST]

Although, I do get a kick out of you claiming the Giants are classless on this matter, when the Skins employed Gregg Williams for 4 years and paid him to implement his bounty system in DC.

If I'm not mistaken, didn't the F.O. actually fire him because they didn't like the way he did things? Go troll another board.

[NewCliche21]

How is it different? Is it only okay to take a guy out of the game if he hasn't had any concussions in the past? If Kyle Williams wasn't healthy enough to take a hard, legal hit, he shouldn't have been playing. It's not the Giants' job to protect him from himself.

Is this a joke question?

You take someone out of the game when you defend him and make him a non-factor. When playing the Lions, your goal is to take Calvin Johnson out of the game.

I don't know how, with a straight face, you can even try to make that argument. You're better than that, Joe.

[Big Blue Joe]

Is this a joke question?

You take someone out of the game when you defend him and make him a non-factor. When playing the Lions, your goal is to take Calvin Johnson out of the game.

I don't know how, with a straight face, you can even try to make that argument. You're better than that, Joe.

Here are some other quotes from Whitner in the same article:

“We play physical,’’ Whitner said. “Whenever you play physical, people get hurt.’’

“But when you play this game the way we play, we play fast and carefree, some guys are going to end up getting injured. We are not going to stop playing physical. Guys come out of the game, hopefully it’s not too bad of an injury.’’

---------- Post added April-7th-2012 at 12:19 PM ----------

You're such a ****ing troll it's hilarious. By all accounts, Gibbs had no idea it was going on. We paid him to coach football. He put in a bounty system.

Now, go away.

You're right. My bad. Shouldn't have brought the Skins into this.

[HailGreen28]

And the hit by Tyler Sash was also legal. So there is no difference. If Kyle Williams was not healthy enough to take clean, legal hits, that's not really the Giants' problem. That's on Williams and the 49ers. The Giants aren't going to forfeit or let the punt returner run by them, untouched, just because the 49ers were willing to put him in harm's way.

How do you know the hit was legal? And the difference is that the headshot is still dirty. But I guess doing it and bragging about it afterwards is par for the course for the G-ants, so I'd expect one of their fans to excuse it as "not really the Giant's problem". Geez do people even read what they type here anymore?

Although, I do get a kick out of you claiming the Giants are classless on this matter, when the Skins employed Gregg Williams for 4 years and paid him to implement his bounty system in DC.

Great example. As it turns out, Redskins players at that time weren't bragging about dirty hits like Giants players do, and Williams was let go. No evidence bounties had anything to do with that, but Blanche quietly stopped the bounties when he took over. Contrast that with the G-ants current dirty play, their publicly bragging about it, and Coach "Cheater playbook reading" Coughlin allowing it. An intelligent fan actually would see a difference there, so thank you for that example.

I guess after the NFL started cracking down on hits like dirty classless Giants players continued to do, and the dirty classless Giants bragged about it, making the same kind of remarks that Gregg Williams has been banned indefinitely for.... I really am wondering why you don't see the difference between the G-ants and other teams, Joe.

[BlueinBuf]

How do you know the hit was legal? And the difference is that the headshot is still dirty. But I guess doing it and bragging about it afterwards is par for the course for the G-ants, so I'd expect one of their fans to excuse it as "not really the Giant's problem". Geez do people even read what they type here anymore?

I'm guessing he knows cause he saw it?

Also I read that article and no where does it say they were trying to give him another concussion, you're the only one using the word headshot. Concussions effect your body as much as they do your mind. 5 days after I got my first concussion I walked to school just like I did everyday for almost 4 years without a problem, but by the time I got there I was tired and winded. Obviously it depends on the severity but concussions can physically drain you, so good clean hits on guys that have suffered concussions would be an easy way to get them out of a game.

[HailGreen28]

I'm guessing he knows cause he saw it?

Prove it. Knowing the dirty G-ants, there's a headshot or three in there.Where do you hit a guy to make him "dazed", the knees? (Wouldn't put that past a dirty Giant player either, lol)

Also I read that article and no where does it say they were trying to give him another concussion, you're the only one using the word headshot. Concussions effect your body as much as they do your mind. 5 days after I got my first concussion I walked to school just like I did everyday for almost 4 years without a problem, but by the time I got there I was tired and winded. Obviously it depends on the severity but concussions can physically drain you, so good clean hits on guys that have suffered concussions would be an easy way to get them out of a game.

Now the above is delusion at it's finest. Again, from the OP:

Thomas spoke of similar tactics: "He's had a lot of concussions. We were just like, 'We got to put a hit on that guy.' (Defensive back Tyler) Sash did a great job hitting him early, and he looked kind of dazed when he got up. I feel like that made a difference, and he coughed it up."

"The thing is, we knew (Kyle Williams) had four concussions," Jacquian Williams told NYMag.com after the game. "So that was our biggest thing -- was to take him out of the game."

The dirty G-ants only talking about an opponent's concussions, putting a hit on him, making him dazed, and taking him out. But no, a G-ants fan says, that's not trying to give him a concussion! He didn't use the word "headshot".

SMH. :doh: Dirty classless Giants. No difference between them and Gregg Williams. Wonder why one is banned while the others aren't?

[BlueinBuf]

Yeah and as I said before you don't have to hit a concussed player in the head to "take him out of the game".

[Zazzaro703]

This is kind of silly. They already nerfed kickoffs so they are pretty much non-existent. Look, football is a rough game. I'm def against paying people to hurt others, but if you are on my punt coverage team and crushing the punt returner if given the chance isn't what you are trying to do.... get off my team. That doesn't mean I'm saying hit the returner in the head either.

*Edit* Example: Sean Taylor absolutely destroying that guy on Detroit who was running his mouth before the game. That's how running someone through a brick wall is done professionally. You don't think there were talks about taking that guys head off if given the chance? Gregg Williams was on staff during that game too.

[HeluCopter29]

How is it different? Is it only okay to take a guy out of the game if he hasn't had any concussions in the past? If Kyle Williams wasn't healthy enough to take a hard, legal hit, he shouldn't have been playing. It's not the Giants' job to protect him from himself.

It's not the Giants job to protect him from the problem. You're correct to say that. But intentionally making it worse?

I agree with you that we shouldn't excuse Whitner's statement. That being said, a concussion is a lot more debilitating then a leg or arm injury.

I think the general consensus around ES right now (and rightfully so) is that John Mara, the owner of a division rival, made an unfair ruling that hurt two teams for breaking a rule that was never written, and if it had been, we would not have been the major violators of. Now, in the middle of bountygate, a report leaks about how the Giants tried to give someone a concussion, something the league has been trying extremely hard to try and prevent. Yet, there's been minimal media coverage of it (the only thing I've seen is the article in the OP), which has led to a massive uproar by Redskins fans who are trying to point out that once again, the Giants are getting special treatment from the league for whatever reason.

I'm sorry if you disagree with the conclusion, but those happen to be the facts.

[Rocket442Olds]

I don't have any issue with what the Giants did if the hits are legal.

What do I have a problem with, is when the tables are turned, and its someone on a team like the Redskins hitting Eli Manning when he's in the pocket his first game back from a concussion. Then a while later it comes out we "wanted him out of the game" and our Defense talked about it without any money incentives, there would be a full-on investigation by Goodell and Mara would be throwing a damn hissy fit.

I just hate the blatant "throw this under the carpet because its from X team".

[BlueinBuf]

It's not the Giants job to protect him from the problem. You're correct to say that. But intentionally making it worse?

I agree with you that we shouldn't excuse Whitner's statement. That being said, a concussion is a lot more debilitating then a leg or arm injury.

I think the general consensus around ES right now (and rightfully so) is that John Mara, the owner of a division rival, made an unfair ruling that hurt two teams for breaking a rule that was never written, and if it had been, we would not have been the major violators of.

I think the facts stop here.

Now, in the middle of bountygate, a report leaks about how the Giants tried to give someone a concussion, something the league has been trying extremely hard to try and prevent. Yet, there's been minimal media coverage of it (the only thing I've seen is the article in the OP), which has led to a massive uproar by Redskins fans who are trying to point out that once again, the Giants are getting special treatment from the league for whatever reason.

And this appears to all be opinion and speculation

[HeluCopter29]

I think the facts stop here.

And this appears to all be opinion and speculation

For those interested, this is what I said that was opinion and speculation.

Now, in the middle of bountygate, a report leaks about how the Giants tried to give someone a concussion, something the league has been trying extremely hard to try and prevent. Yet, there's been minimal media coverage of it (the only thing I've seen is the article in the OP), which has led to a massive uproar by Redskins fans who are trying to point out that once again, the Giants are getting special treatment from the league for whatever reason.

The back half about "special treatment" is opinion. You're right about that, but that doesn't mean there's no merit to back it up. In fact, the front half is not even close to opinion really.

I made the following statements:

1. We are in the middle of bounty gate
   
2. The NFL has been extremely active with regards to player safety and has made numerous rule changes with regards to hits to the head
   
3. There has been very little media coverage on the issue
   
4. There have been a lot of Redskins fans complaining about this and they're tying this in with the past issue
   

We are in the middle of bounty gate. The Saints issued appeals and the NFL has yet to issue rulings on them.

The NFL is facing a massive lawsuit right now with more than 120 former players about how they were not "properly warned" about concussions. James Harrison will be the first to tell you that there have been a lot of rule changes with regards to hits to the head.

A quick google search of Kyle Williams giants yields the link in the OP and this: http://espn.go.com/blog/nfceast/post/_/id/37859/didnt-the-giants-target-kyle-williams-too. I wouldn't call this too much media coverage. I have yet to see anything on SportsCenter regarding it. The NFL has yet to issue any formal statement on this, at least one that I can find.

Read this thread and a few of other threads around to see what I mean by "angry Redskins fans."

I wouldn't call anything I said an "opinion."

[jflow78]

Here are some other quotes from Whitner in the same article...

I'm not sure how this became a "Whitner shouldn't be punished but the Giants should" thread. Why not punish them both for being dumb *****? Suspend players and coaches on both teams.

I'd be perfectly fine with that.

[BlueinBuf]

For those interested, this is what I said that was opinion and speculation.

The back half about "special treatment" is opinion. You're right about that, but that doesn't mean there's no merit to back it up. In fact, the front half is not even close to opinion really.

I made the following statements:

1. We are in the middle of bounty gate
   
2. The NFL has been extremely active with regards to player safety and has made numerous rule changes with regards to hits to the head
   
3. There has been very little media coverage on the issue
   
4. There have been a lot of Redskins fans complaining about this and they're tying this in with the past issue
   

We are in the middle of bounty gate. The Saints issued appeals and the NFL has yet to issue rulings on them.

The NFL is facing a massive lawsuit right now with more than 120 former players about how they were not "properly warned" about concussions. James Harrison will be the first to tell you that there have been a lot of rule changes with regards to hits to the head.

A quick google search of Kyle Williams giants yields the link in the OP and this: http://espn.go.com/blog/nfceast/post/_/id/37859/didnt-the-giants-target-kyle-williams-too. I wouldn't call this too much media coverage. I have yet to see anything on SportsCenter regarding it. The NFL has yet to issue any formal statement on this, at least one that I can find.

Read this thread and a few of other threads around to see what I mean by "angry Redskins fans."

I wouldn't call anything I said an "opinion."

Maybe I shouldn't have blocked the whole quote, but I didn't want to start removing sentences and remove context. I apologize for that.

The Giants trying to give someone a concussion is speculation on your part, no one said that. Carlos Rogers said the 49'ers needed to take Eli out of the game, but does that mean they were trying to give him a concussion, no. To me what they're saying is basically the same thing as when if an opposing QB has a hurt ankle or something and the defense says they want to make the QB move around cause they know his ankle is sore.

Minimal media coverage is your opinion, maybe I just see more because there were a lot more topics on the Giants MB, so who knows I could be biased in this too. I saw Antonio Pierce on a bit on NFLlive I think on ESPN, I've seen coverage on NFLN. Of course it's not going to get as much coverage as the Saints since the Giants didn't actually do anything. Also what even constitutes minimal coverage, maybe there's the perfect amount of coverage. Do you think this thread would even be this long if Redskins fans weren't angry at the Giants organization right now?

And then yeah the special treatment part.

[Spear]

The Giants did nothing wrong here. The guy with four concussions is trying to beat you and you DO NOT want to be beaten by a guy with four concussions. You do not want to be the team that wasn't physical enough to keep a guy with four concussions in check.

Nobody but the truly sadistic is trying to give other players more concussions, but you want to REMIND them about the POSSIBILITY and sap their will to fight. And if he does get re-concussed from a legal hit, that's football and it was his choice to play.

Even if there are some rules passed that prohibit this sort of thing from being discussed out loud, it's still going to happen. You can't police intent. As long as the hits are within the rules, then who can say whether a player is targeting a vulnerability or is just incidentally connecting with it?

[gkekoa]

It's football. Players should be trying to LEGALLY take players out. It's called competition and that gives you an advantage.

What are players supposed to do? He has a history of concussions...let's limit the hits to his waist and below.

[HeluCopter29]

Maybe I shouldn't have blocked the whole quote, but I didn't want to start removing sentences and remove context. I apologize for that.

That's fine, no biggie

The Giants trying to give someone a concussion is speculation on your part, no one said that. Carlos Rogers said the 49'ers needed to take Eli out of the game, but does that mean they were trying to give him a concussion, no. To me what they're saying is basically the same thing as when if an opposing QB has a hurt ankle or something and the defense says they want to make the QB move around cause they know his ankle is sore.

I disagree with a lot of this.

The focus of what Devin Thomas and Jacquian Williams had said was based around concussions, and how Kyle Williams had just gone through 4. Williams said: "The thing is, we knew he had four concussions, so that was our biggest thing, to take him out of the game." Maybe I'm reading to much into this, but that sounds to me like they want to target the weak point and injure it further. To me, that's never acceptable.

There's a fundamental difference with your comparison to the QB with the sore ankle in that they're not trying to take him out of the game, they're just trying to make him play poorly. If I know that Adrian Peterson (as an example here) has a hurt right hand, I'll try and force him to his right side and make him carry the ball with his right hand more and hopefully we can cause a fumble that way. I'm not trying to injure his hand more, I'm just trying to use the fact that he's weaker in his hand to my advantage.

In the Giants case, the advantage comes from knocking Kyle Williams out of the game. At this point though your trying to cause an injury to someone. Now, while injuries are apart of the game (this being football and the most dangerous sport in the world) you should never try to cause one intentionally.

Minimal media coverage is your opinion, maybe I just see more because there were a lot more topics on the Giants MB, so who knows I could be biased in this too. I saw Antonio Pierce on a bit on NFLlive I think on ESPN, I've seen coverage on NFLN. Of course it's not going to get as much coverage as the Saints since the Giants didn't actually do anything. Also what even constitutes minimal coverage, maybe there's the perfect amount of coverage. Do you think this thread would even be this long if Redskins fans weren't angry at the Giants organization right now?

4 pages for something like this seems about appropriate on this board. Honestly, I don't think there's going to be any punishments, nor should there be any. The attention's being focused on the major violator, the Saints, right now. I think this serves as a warning to the rest of the league and in the future, things like this will be handled with more attention. I'm not saying that more attention should be directed at the Giants, I'm just saying that there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of it besides a mention here and a mention there. Really, I was just saying that's how it's seen around here.

That said, I still think anyone who plays with the intent to injure has no place in this game, regardless of what jersey he wears. I'm of the firm belief that Gregg Williams deserves a lifetime ban and all players involved should get at least a year.

[Tweedr01]

I think the facts stop here.

And this appears to all be opinion and speculation

Your entire post is all opinion and speculation.

[BlueinBuf]

I disagree with a lot of this.

The focus of what Devin Thomas and Jacquian Williams had said was based around concussions, and how Kyle Williams had just gone through 4. Williams said: "The thing is, we knew he had four concussions, so that was our biggest thing, to take him out of the game." Maybe I'm reading to much into this, but that sounds to me like they want to target the weak point and injure it further. To me, that's never acceptable.

There's a fundamental difference with your comparison to the QB with the sore ankle in that they're not trying to take him out of the game, they're just trying to make him play poorly. If I know that Adrian Peterson (as an example here) has a hurt right hand, I'll try and force him to his right side and make him carry the ball with his right hand more and hopefully we can cause a fumble that way. I'm not trying to injure his hand more, I'm just trying to use the fact that he's weaker in his hand to my advantage.

In the Giants case, the advantage comes from knocking Kyle Williams out of the game. At this point though your trying to cause an injury to someone. Now, while injuries are apart of the game (this being football and the most dangerous sport in the world) you should never try to cause one intentionally.

Good point, I guess how I interpret when they say take him out of the game they don't mean by injury but by himself removing himself from the game because he can't take clean legal hits either because he's not fully recovered from his last concussion or he is afraid of getting another one. A good clean hit is going to have more impact on someone recovering from a concussion, both mentally and physically, than a player who's never had a concussion.

Your entire post is all opinion and speculation.

I never claimed my post had any facts in it.

[HailGreen28]

Yeah and as I said before you don't have to hit a concussed player in the head to "take him out of the game".

Thomas spoke of similar tactics: "He's had a lot of concussions. We were just like, 'We got to put a hit on that guy.' (Defensive back Tyler) Sash did a great job hitting him early, and he looked kind of dazed when he got up. I feel like that made a difference, and he coughed it up."

But the dirty Giants targeted his concussion.

---------- Post added April-9th-2012 at 09:00 AM ----------

Nobody but the truly sadistic is trying to give other players more concussions,

Thomas spoke of similar tactics: "He's had a lot of concussions. We were just like, 'We got to put a hit on that guy.' (Defensive back Tyler) Sash did a great job hitting him early, and he looked kind of dazed when he got up. I feel like that made a difference, and he coughed it up."

Hate to keep repeating this, but it seems like few are reading this sentence and just taking it like it is. No extrapolation necessary.

The dirty Giants player above described giving another player a concussion as a "great job". Sadistic may be going a bit far, but the dirty Giants actually were trying to give another player more concussions.

[BlueinBuf]

But the dirty Giants targeted his concussion.

---------- Post added April-9th-2012 at 09:00 AM ----------

The dirty Giants player above described giving another player a concussion as a "great job". Sadistic may be going a bit far, but the dirty Giants actually were trying to give another player more concussions.

How do you target a concussion? Unless you're talking about hitting a player in the head, which the Giants did not do.

You are aware that he did not suffer a concussion in the Giants game right?

Putting a hard hit on a player that is recovering from a concussion is not a penalty, or dirty.