NYTs: Video Said to Show Marines Urinating on Taliban Corpses

[visionary]

This is part of War. It always has been and always will be. Get into it, because just like our Wars in the ME, it's never going to end.

When mentioning the possibility of going to War, everybody just sees an evil opponent and a potential finish line. Let's celebrate the torture, the crippled veterans in the streets, the schools full of children that will get blown to bits. Old glory, is full of god awful misery and we all know it.

**** War, figure out what needs to be done to end our dependency on oil. It'll be a lot cheaper than what we've paid so far.

LOL, that won't make war go away. But you do bring up some good points.

War is inherently going to come with some unfortunate side effects.

That doesn't mean we should ignore it when our guys do something dumb and offensive.

I don't think this sort of thing can be dismissed so easily.

Especially not if we're trying to make some kind of deal with the Taliban right now.

[Koolblue13]

LOL, that won't make war go away. But you do bring up some good points.

War is inherently going to come with some unfortunate side effects.

That doesn't mean we should ignore it when our guys do something dumb and offensive.

I don't think this sort of thing can be dismissed so easily.

Especially not if we're trying to make some kind of deal with the Taliban right now.

I'm not ignoring anything. I have a zero tolerance for War. There are plenty of countries who don't get involved, have solid living life styles and do just fine. We should be leading that way.

[visionary]

I'm guessing you mean the Afghans who's families have not been killed,tortured and oppressed by the Taliban?

Pretty sure the ones that had their fathers castrated and their bodies strung up on lightpoles to rot are in the Meh camp. :pfft:

I don't think it matters who it was done to. It isn't a good idea for the Muslim world to see us disrepecting dead muslims. (remember that to a Muslim respect for the dead is very important)

It isn't going to make a huge impact and get people to turn into terrorists, but it sure as hell doesn't do our reputation any good among people we might need the help of down the road.

[twa]

Muslim respect for the dead,maybe you are right...I've seen them keep pieces of jewish corpses for years to barter

[visionary]

I'm not ignoring anything. I have a zero tolerance for War. There are plenty of countries who don't get involved, have solid living life styles and do just fine. We should be leading that way.

Every country gets involved in wars, or pretty much every country to various degrees.

Sometimes it just isn't as visable.

[TimmySmith]

American Afghans are pissed, that's for sure. Seriously, go to a mosque near you and ask them for their honest opinion. They aren't going to go crazy, but they will be pissed off about this. There is a difference in saying that people of a shared heritage are all terrorists, and that those same people might be angered by seeing their people pissed on. All Afghans might not care, but the vast majority in Afghanistan and abroad are rightly angered by this. Again, you don't buy it, yet we bombed the hell out of two countries, killing hundreds of thousands, because of 9/11. I think it is understandable that Afghans might be miffed by this.

Much ado about nothing. The media is trying to have the Muslims portrayed as incensed by this action, when I don't think they are. So I go down to my public Mosque and ask them their honest opinion of how they feel about dead Taliban fighters being pissed on. If they say yes, then should I ask them if they support the Taliban? You and everyone else are trying to turn this into a Muslim thing. It's not.

[Champskins]

for those of you talking trash about my beloved Corps and my fellow brothers and sisters... remember why you're alive and breathing in this country. "Land of the Free, BECAUSE of the BRAVE!" Go back to being a liberal and thinking you're owed everything... and stop judging the overall becuase of a select few. And im sure these are the same people that cry over stereotyping, hypocrites.

[Prosperity]

for those of you talking trash about my beloved Corps and my fellow brothers and sisters... remember why you're alive and breathing in this country. "Land of the Free, BECAUSE of the BRAVE!" Go back to being a liberal and thinking you're owed everything... and stop judging the overall becuase of a select few. And im sure these are the same people that cry over stereotyping, hypocrites.

Aren't you crying over stereotyping right now? Though I didn't really notice any posts that stereotyped the marine corp, though some folks said something about snipers.

That seems awfully sensitive, no?

[visionary]

for those of you talking trash about my beloved Corps and my fellow brothers and sisters... remember why you're alive and breathing in this country. "Land of the Free, BECAUSE of the BRAVE!" Go back to being a liberal and thinking you're owed everything... and stop judging the overall becuase of a select few. And im sure these are the same people that cry over stereotyping, hypocrites.

I don't think anyone is trashing the marines or the military over this.

Some people have pointed out validly that this does not help matters over there and around the world.

[The 12th Commandment]

for those of you talking trash about my beloved Corps and my fellow brothers and sisters... remember why you're alive and breathing in this country. "Land of the Free, BECAUSE of the BRAVE!" Go back to being a liberal and thinking you're owed everything... and stop judging the overall becuase of a select few. And im sure these are the same people that cry over stereotyping, hypocrites.

You had me until the liberal bull****. You might follow your own advice about judging and such.

I appreciate every single member of our armed forces and I feel bad for the guys who were stupid enough to film this. They're going to catch hell from your beloved Corp. For being stupid not for being cowards.

[Popeman38]

Yup, all Afghans did that, right? All Afghans supported Bin Laden, especially the ones who may have joined the Taliban due to our accidental killing of civilians. Oh wait, you're just talking out of your ass.

Your scenario was quite hilarious. You equate a foreign army invading the US unprovoked to the US leading a coalition army in Afghanistan. The Taliban are not fighting a guerrilla war because we randomly invaded Afghanistan. The Taliban, by aiding Al Qaeda, was party to a terrorist attack on the US that killed 3k+ Americans, brought down the WTC in NYC, an punched a hole in the Pentagon. THAT is why we broke our foot off in Afghanistans ass, sir. Not just because we felt like occupying a country. We had good reason.

But like I said, other than those minute differences, your analogy is shockingly accurate.

[Jumbo]

for those of you talking trash about my beloved Corps and my fellow brothers and sisters... remember why you're alive and breathing in this country. "Land of the Free, BECAUSE of the BRAVE!" Go back to being a liberal and thinking you're owed everything... and stop judging the overall becuase of a select few. And im sure these are the same people that cry over stereotyping, hypocrites.

You're entitled to a temp ban for trolling based on certain comments/phrasing in this post---but everyone can call this just a warning. There are several people in the thread on both "sides" (which really aren't opposing "sides" at all, fundamentally, just different areas of concerns) who edged closer to the end of the rope, rule-wise, and so I'm telling ya'all, you can be as passionate as you want in any direction, but if you care about avoiding trouble with mods and losing posting privileges, you best make sure your phrasing is within the rules and if you ain't sure---go read them.

[Champskins]

Aren't you crying over stereotyping right now? Though I didn't really notice any posts that stereotyped the marine corp, though some folks said something about snipers.

That seems awfully sensitive, no?

awfully sensitive, no.... but when I read "dumb jarheads" and "Marines, keeping it classy" I tend to get a little offended. Is our country too sensitive, yes.... we didn't cut anyones head off on tape. And yes, these select few will catch hell.. but honestly, shouldnt be more than a slap on the wrist IMO...

---------- Post added January-13th-2012 at 11:57 AM ----------

You're entitled to a temp ban for trolling based on certain comments/phrasing in this post---but everyone can call this just a warning. There are several people in the thread on both "sides" (which really aren't opposing "sides" at all, fundamentally, just different areas of concerns) who edged closer to the end of the rope, rule-wise, and so I'm telling ya'all you ca be as passionate as you want in any direction, but if you care about avoiding trouble with mods and losing posting privileges, you best make sure you're phrasing is within the rules and if you ain't sure---go read them.

My apologies... I try to keep it within the lines, usually pretty good about it

[Larry]

deleted post.

[Jumbo]

My apologies... I try to keep it within the lines, usually pretty good about it

Thanks, and I know you are--that was one reason you just got a warning. Other stuff people say on this topic, from varying perspectives, counts with me too on a personal level, but that doesn't matter mod-wise.

This was just a good time to step in to try to help others avoid trouble.

[Champskins]

deleted post.

I will eat my words on that one... my apologies to anyone I offended.

[Jumbo]

For this venue, Champskins has now given an admirable example of how you can get understandably heated (without going full retard) about a matter of real meaning to you, get your head back on straight quickly, and resolve the matter in excellent fashion. Would that this were more the norm.

Back to topic.

I carry much I see from both perspectives. Ideally, I demand a kind of humanistic idealism and military professionalism that controls such desires as these men had, even when the feelings are so easy to understand. I also know the feeling of being resentful and rebellious and even contemptuous at times of "taking the higher road" even as an individual or part of a group usually preach and follow it. So I think it was a dumb and unfortunate act, but I will only take the castigation so far and not ever think it's ok to turn it into a broad brush. And I find doing the same to people really upset by our troops engaging in such activities also a sorry-ass choice of behavior and reflecting lack of intelligent thought.

Someday I may write one my long and serious OPs (rare, for which we're all grateful) on a thread I have considered for years about the differences and complexity about our culturally deep and strong love/support/gratitude for our military and what I will call for now types of "excessive and not-always-sound" lionization of the same.

Though I am fairly well know by most here (who have been around for awhile) as someone with a life-long association in various roles with the military, and am very much in the "love/support" category, including to a degree of action that goes beyond most folks (no brag, just fact) I think it would be a very touchy topic.

People are people in every group, and the larger the group the more likely there are to be examples of socially abhorrent behaviors that become visible. And the more stressful and emotionally-charged the environment, the same is true.

My closing comment would be that as a group of its kind on the world stage, our military’s level of commitment to code and conduct, and its overall level of discipline and charitable/helpful actions while in performance of their duties in recent decades, gives us something to feel very good about in any reasonable and realistic appraisal. Also, in my view, we should avoid using pride in that appraisal to endorse ever "settling" for less than the best as our behavioral standard. For me that includes being very thoughtful as to how I defend our image against valid criticism (or even unjust attack) and resist even the appearance of "making excuses" for such, just as firmly as I might challenge anyone's comments who run too far, unjustly, in that direction.

[No_Pressure]

Did we aid a known terrorist in attacking the invading country and refusing to turn over the terror mastermind? Other than that, these scenarios are identical :doh: :doh: :doh:

Yes, in this HYPOTHETICAL (I figured I needed to bold, italicize, underline, and change the font color because you must not have seen it previously. If you simply didn't understand what the word means, the definition is "Of, relating to, or based on a hypothesis, Suppositional; uncertain, Conditional; contingent.") scenario, lets say Timothy McVeigh and his superfriends team of American terrorists consisting of Terry Nichols, the KKK, The Weathermen, The Black Liberation Army, and Ted Kaczynski banded together to for the Ameri-ban and decided to blow up another country's building in an attack. Lets also assume that it isn't that we're refusing to turn them in, we're not really sure who is and isn't allied with them, and the majority of our populace just wants to get on with their lives and doesn't know a huge amount about the resistance movement, though they are aware of their presence.

Post more facepalms, I think they add the greatest possible amount of substance to your posts.

[Popeman38]

Yes, in this HYPOTHETICAL (I figured I needed to bold, italicize, underline, and change the font color because you must not have seen it previously. If you simply didn't understand what the word means, the definition is "Of, relating to, or based on a hypothesis, Suppositional; uncertain, Conditional; contingent.") scenario, lets say Timothy McVeigh and his superfriends team of American terrorists consisting of Terry Nichols, the KKK, The Weathermen, The Black Liberation Army, and Ted Kaczynski banded together to for the Ameri-ban and decided to blow up another country's building in an attack. Lets also assume that it isn't that we're refusing to turn them in, we're not really sure who is and isn't allied with them, and the majority of our populace just wants to get on with their lives and doesn't know a huge amount about the resistance movement, though they are aware of their presence.

Post more facepalms, I think they add the greatest possible amount of substance to your posts.

In case you are unaware, the Taliban was the ruling party in Afghanistan. In other words, EVERYONE knew about the Taliban. They oppressed womens rights. They enacted class division. They decided punishments in accordance with Sharia law. Get pissy all you want, you can't try to equivocate reality with fantasy. Afghanistan was ruled by the Taliban. America is not ruled by the KKK, Weathermen, Black Liberation Army or any other terror organization.

[stevenaa]

I can imagine being put in a position as a young man having to kill other people in time of war. I imagine it is a very hard thing for a great many, and marginalizing the dead is just one of a myriad ways of dealing with it. I can imagine becoming very cold and callous as a coping mechanism as well. I can imagine myself, being surrounded with death and killing, peeing on a dead enemy. We like to trumpet our superiority and how we'd behave so much better under similar circumstance. I doubt most would live up to our own standards. This is just somehting caught on film. The real truth would leave actually be shocking. There hasn't been a war fought where man did not behave in such ways.

[Larry]

In case you are unaware, the Taliban was the ruling party in Afghanistan. In other words, EVERYONE knew about the Taliban. They oppressed womens rights. They enacted class division. They decided punishments in accordance with Sharia law.

In other words, they were Republicans?

Sorry. Thread needed to lighten up.

[Koolblue13]

This is not a marine, a party or any other kind of problem, except a War problem. This is part of it.

[Popeman38]

In other words, they were Republicans?

Sorry. Thread needed to lighten up.

Bazinga!

[Jumbo]

America is not ruled by the KKK, Weathermen, Black Liberation Army or any other terror organization.

Maybe not. But there is a power group among you of far less worth and infinitely more destructive than those you named (and I don't even include mall cops)...that's right...I'm talking about message board moderators :paranoid:

< in lighten up mode>

[oisn1]

I'm guessing you mean the Afghans who's families have not been killed,tortured and oppressed by the Taliban?

Pretty sure the ones that had their fathers castrated and their bodies strung up on lightpoles to rot are in the Meh camp. :pfft:

Ah, now I understand. See the problem is that you are woefully ignorant of Afghan history and thus you can't understand why Afghans, and Muslims, in general would be angered by this sort of thing. Afghanistan has been invaded by the West for many years, and they have a strong bond. While they have problems with the Taliban, the Taliban is not the same as the KKK in our country. There were portions of the Taliban that were humanitarian in nature, and often young men would join because of the West's interference in the region. It goes without saying that losing your brother or your father can be traumatic no matter what they may have believed. You must also reconcile the fact that the Muslim world has been occupied and "abused" for centuries by the West which led to a cultural bond. Combine that with their culture's respect for the dead and you can see why this sort of thing would be annoying. It is not just the act, but rather the continued unjust acts (real and perceived) that Afghans and Muslims feel the West is pushing on them. So maybe now that you understand, we can continue...

Muslim respect for the dead,maybe you are right...I've seen them keep pieces of jewish corpses for years to barter

Oh whoops, looks like you were just trolling again. Gotta love racist, blowhard twa.

Much ado about nothing. The media is trying to have the Muslims portrayed as incensed by this action, when I don't think they are. So I go down to my public Mosque and ask them their honest opinion of how they feel about dead Taliban fighters being pissed on. If they say yes, then should I ask them if they support the Taliban? You and everyone else are trying to turn this into a Muslim thing. It's not.

As I said earlier, actually learn a thing or two about Afghan history. Learn a thing or two about Muslim funeral rights. Ask a Muslim about their opinion of Americans pissing on dead Muslims. You don't think it is important because you don't really understand the situation, which is alright because it's not hard to learn! Additionally, I do agree that the media has overblown the story, but I'm talking about how Muslims will feel about it, especially American Muslims. They aren't going to go around killing people and such, but it does hurt them on the inside, and that is something that can fester inside when repeated over and over again.

Your scenario was quite hilarious. You equate a foreign army invading the US unprovoked to the US leading a coalition army in Afghanistan. The Taliban are not fighting a guerrilla war because we randomly invaded Afghanistan. The Taliban, by aiding Al Qaeda, was party to a terrorist attack on the US that killed 3k+ Americans, brought down the WTC in NYC, an punched a hole in the Pentagon. THAT is why we broke our foot off in Afghanistans ass, sir. Not just because we felt like occupying a country. We had good reason.

But like I said, other than those minute differences, your analogy is shockingly accurate.

A perfect distraction to the real point, a pseudo-No True Scotsman argument. I'm not arguing that our war was justified because it was. I'm arguing that action of pissing on enemy troops is unjust. More importantly, ten years later in the war, our enemy is no longer the same. Some Taliban fighters are family members of people who died during drone strikes (during weddings) or died as collateral damage. You understand nothing about war if you believe that all soldiers are representative of the worst people on that side. Under your opinion, anyone who supports (even today) or fought for the Confederate Army is a virulent racist. The minute you understand that enemy soldiers are often times just average people pulled into war for one reason or another is when you understand why this sort of this is despicable. Get back to me when you do.