John Beck: Our Franchise QB ...

[SKIN4WAHOOZ]

Complete waste of yours and my time. beck "played" the majority of his time with arguably the worst team in nfl history. In addition, chicago really didnt let rex throw that much. T. Jones carried what offense they actually had.

I have an idea...start a flag football team, call rex and get him to play for you...you two live happily ever after. I will take my with chances with the unknown. I know what rex is.

[Commander Adama]

Read closer next time! haha

Maybe the ellipses confused him?

[BucketHTTR]

In the court of public opinion the premises of ASF's threads aren't really accepted by anyone who takes the time to read them. He does follow the rules, however, and he puts a substantial amount of effort in to his own baloney so his threads don't get shut down.

If you demonstrate that you understand why you received your NNT, you will generally have it removed. If you demonstrate that you are unwilling to be cooperative and learn the rules of the board or you are downright unreasonable, whiny, and combative then you're just digging yourself a big hole.

I'm curious as to what he thinks the best is.

If you make quality, substantive threads people tend to be more cooperative, although there are bound to be idiots in every thread owing to the sheer population size of the board.

No, you would have been lambasted for using flawed logic. Don't be dense. If this experience is teaching you anything it should be that you do not know the rules or culture of the board as well as you thought you did.

Proof is there.. Don't know anything about flawed logic when you are starring it right in the face..

[SpacePenguin]

That's a very fair analysis of the situation ASF.

I'd suggest that this post should be the OP, but I suppose it wouldn't anger the masses enough to get amusing enough responses.

Sadly, many of the points you made could be said for every QB we've had since 06. It says more about the lack of depth in our franchise than it does the QBs.....Although many have been pretty bad in their own right.

I knew I liked you for some reason.

[Pedro]

You're oversimplifying my reaction

You're over complicating yours. You said Rex was a good QB. He's not.

Shock everyone and man up

[rick7423]

If you're that clueless such that you do not realize that ASF's post is quite sarcastic and his numbers analysis makes Beck look WORSE than Grossman, I shudder to think if there are more dumbasses like you.

Really, was that comment necessary? This is one reason why this forum has degraded so much.

[88Comrade2000]

Niether John Beck or your mancrush- Rex Grossman are franchise QBs. Our franchise qb will be drafted in 2012.

[Beshires1]

I Think that Beck deserves his chance to start. Really, his start for the Dolphins was really a lamb being thrown to the wolves. They (Dolphins) won only 6 games the previous year and ended up 1-15 in 2007. they had absolutely no offensive line.Our Beat-up O-Line can give Beck more opportunities in their sleep, than Beck ever had with with the rebuilding 2007 Dolphins. Even that first photo in this post shows the kind of protection that the Dolphins gave Beck....None! Our franchise QB? Maybe. I bet he isn't going to waste the opportunity. LET THE GOOD TIMES ROLL!

[Shanny&Danny]

Rex has been attempting too many Brett Favre throws with Mark Brunell arm so there's no harm in seeing what Beck can do.

[Jumbo]

Why do you need to make new threads when the usual around here seems to just hijack other ones to get your point across? It's been working pretty well.

Well here's something for you to think about, peanut. I just read all your posts to date and before I even check to see if you're a dupe acct, i'm already wondering why we should even bother letting you waste anymore of our time. So far, what you've mainly accomplished is to quickly violate a rule and lose a privilege, offer semi-spam (being kind) posts, whine and question our board management, imply staff favoritism, or tread close to other rule violations.

Given we already have a huge population of such contributors, I am loathe to weclome new guys who have nothing more to bring to the table. There's nothing personal in this, but if I were you I'd resist responding to me and simply step your game up. Also, learn the tulres and follow them.

[Redskins4ever]

Niether John Beck or your mancrush- Rex Grossman are franchise QBs. Our franchise qb will be drafted in 2012.

I sure hope so. Beck is in his 30s. The Redskins need a young QB. Landry Jones certainly comes to mind.

[Lavarleap56]

You're oversimplifying my reaction, so let me set the record straight. It's more that I've been wrong about a variety of contributing factors: assumptions I made that have not proved true. I took a "glass half full" view of Rex that depended on other facets of the offense. These facets either never showed up or have since broken down.

In preseason, I thought Rex could lead this team to the playoffs, and I made these assumptions:

1. Rushing game would be strong, led by Tim Hightower (as we saw in preseason), balancing the passing game by forcing defenses to sell out against the run.
   
2. Hightower in the game would improve pass protection (he's very good at pass pro) and also give Rex a reliable pass-catching option at RB ... and that Kyle and Rex would use this option.
   
3. Cooley would come back from injury and play like the Cooley we've known in prior years.
   
4. Davis would develop and work in tandem with Cooley for a very strong 2-TE set.
   
5. Moss would be reliable and also be an occasional deep threat like he was for Brunell in 2005.
   
6. Armstrong as #3 receiver would be on the field every game and stretch the field in passing situations, building on his very strong 2010 season.
   
7. Brown would be a rock at RT, fully recovered now from his 2009 injury.
   
8. TW would lock down LT and show his talent more than he did in 2010.
   
9. Improved players at interior OL would allow Rex the passing lanes he needs to succeed, while also providing a better short-yardage rushing game.
   

After 5 games, none of these things has happened (or they have completely broken down). To review:

1. When rushing, Hightower has been a shadow of the player we saw in preseason. Now with the injuries to LG and LT, the rushing game will degenerate quickly, as we saw against the Eagles.
   
2. Hightower hasn't been used as a receiving target. Torain rushed well against the Rams, but isn't strong at pass protection and is not a reliable receiver. Helu is a work in progress.
   
3. Cooley's done for 2011, maybe for his career. To my eyes, he was done even before fracturing his finger.
   
4. Davis started hot, but had a horrible game against the Eagles. He hasn't learned to use his big body and athleticism to win battles against safeties. On the first INT by the Eagles, Davis had position for the catch, but Coleman just leaped over him for the ball. (This play also took out Lichtensteiger. Retaliation by Trent Williams on the play probably led to the dirty play later that took out Williams.) On the third INT by the Eagles, Davis failed to cross in front of Coleman, allowing Coleman to jump in front of him. Later a drop by Davis on a deep pass led to Rex's 4th interception on third down, two plays later. Those three plays by Davis were arguably the gamebreakers, leading directly to three INTs in addition to missed scoring opportunities. I haven't given up on Davis, but he looks like a talented player who needs better coaching and better focus on the field.
   
5. Moss has lost his speed. That's sad to see. I really like Santana, but he no longer has the speed to break open games or scare defenses.
   
6. Armstrong missed games 3 - 5, and his absence really hurt the passing game in obvious passing situations.
   
7. Brown has looked very poor on many plays and is the root cause of breakdowns for many plays (including the Grossman fumble late in the Cowboys game). This will be a lingering problem if Brown can't get back to his pre-injury level. The team is paying him more than they are getting in return.
   
8. Trent Williams has been inconsistent, sometimes playing well (against Ware) and sometime poorly. He has a $10m cap hit in 2011 and a $13m cap hit in 2012. There are LTs in the NFL who are paid a lot less and playing better. The Redskins need to see better return from their investments in both LT and RT. Now with Trent out, the situation at LT is likely to get worse in the near term.
   
9. The starting interior OL has played fairly well for pass protection and zone stretch runs, but look completely overmatched in short yardage situations. It's a problem when 3rd and 1 is a passing down, which it is for the Redskins, and that's on the interior OL's lack of raw power. While that's a manageable problem, now the injury to Lichtensteiger has ruined the original strength of the trio, putting Montgomery at LG (where he had a horrible game against the Eagles), and bringing in Cook at center. I expect Cook to be overpowered as teams game-plan against him.
   

All these factors together have shredded my assumptions going into the season, leaving Rex exposed in the last few games and especially the Eagles game. While it's true that injuries are part of football, I certainly didn't expect so many contributing factors to go wrong, so soon in the 2011 season.

While this is sufficient explanation for the deviance in Rex's play, it's not all on other players. There are a few plays by Rex that stand out as concerns about Rex himself:

• Throwing on the move, while rolling left. I knew Rex was a pocket passer, but I didn't appreciate how horrible he is when rolling left. Of all the scorn heaped on Rex, this is where it's deserved. He's straight hot garbage rolling left. It's a problem in an offense that emphasizes the bootleg so much. I'm picturing the horrible throw against the Rams, rolling left, and also the 4th INT against the Eagles, which came off a broken play, forcing him out of the pocket to the left.
  
• Decision making on broken plays. Rex is best with timing passes and throwing on rhythm. He's had countless good and excellent plays in this mode. However, if a play breaks down, he doesn't know what to do. He has no mobility, so can't advance the ball with his legs. He doesn't check down to the RB very frequently. He's completely incapable of generating the kind of sandlot plays we see from some of the great QBs. Vick has about 5 such plays a game, and even Romo sits to pee managed to kill the Redskins on 3rd and 21, on a pure sandlot play, flushed out of the pocket, throwing to Dez Bryant.
  
• Arm strength and throwing to the sideline. Rex has basically avoided throwing to the sidelines this year. In Chicago he threw frequently to the sidelines, so I'm not sure exactly why he's not doing this now. The reasonable assumption is lack of arm strength to complete the passes.
  
• Lack of screen pass production. Kyle calls many fewer screen passes for Rex, compared to Beck. A few have been called inside the hashes, but the plays have been broken up the defense. Beck throws a nice quick screen pass to the WRs split wide, but I haven't seen this much from Rex. The lack of screen pass production is an important missing ingredient in the offense. I have to assume that at least some of this is on Rex.
  
• Accuracy on deep passes. Rex looked much more accurate than Beck on deep passes in preseason, but in the regular season games he hasn't been able to hit his deep receivers in stride, on many occasions. That could be arm strength, or lack of timing with receivers. It's a big problem, because Rex is the sort of QB whose production depends on at least a couple of deep pass completions each game.
  

Taken by themselves, these are not fatal faults by Rex, but they are sufficiently lethal in combination with the busted assumptions I outlined earlier in this post.

Going forward, I think games against the Bills and the 49ers are likely to be ugly for this offense, regardless who is at QB. I have a hard time seeing how the offense is going to bounce back from losing Lichtensteiger and Williams at LG and LT. The rushing game will likely collapse, and pass protection will be inconsistent. In these situations, it's probably best to roll with Beck, who can at least give the defense something else to think about, with all the bootlegs and his foot speed. Beck will also use the screen passing game and checkdowns to RBs more effectively than Grossman will. On this basis and also because I was concerned about toxic fan negativity (home fans booing their QB), I actually made the argument to start Beck against the Panthers.

I think Beck has a good shot of having a great game against the Panthers. If he does that, he could carry some momentum into the Bills and 49ers games. I think those games are his Waterloo, but he's got his shot to prove himself. If he does, more power to him. I'm a Redskins fan before I'm a Rex fan.

However, I do think it's just a matter of time before the music stops for Beck. That was the reason for this thread. Drop-back passing is job #1 for NFL QBs. There's only so long that Beck can hide the fact that he's not really an NFL QB when it comes to drop-back passing and standing in against the rush. Teams will figure out that they can force bad decisions by overloading the rush, and that they can spook Beck into running out of the pocket. Once he's flushed from the pocket, we'll see the sacks and the fumbles. Teams will game plan to create the bad decisions: rushed passes, and flushing Beck into traps.

Where does this lead? It leads to putting Grossman back in the game as starter at some point this year. And it leads to the Redskins drafting their true franchise QB in the 2012 draft.

I'm all in for the Redskins going all in for their QB next April. That should tell you where I am on Grossman going forward. I think he's the best starter for 2011, but needs a level of surrounding talent that right now the team can't give him. I'd like to see him back on the field later this year, to prove his case that he's the guy to take forward in 2012, in tandem with the true franchise QB we get in the draft. John Beck should move on to his

.

That's my "fair and balanced" view of things, without all the goofs with charts and stats and photos. That's just entertainment. Also, I'm a sucker for funny thread titles that lead the masses to run for their torches and pitch forks. :evilg:

Regardless how you view ASF the above is about as realistic view of the offense as you can get.

[sportjunkie07]

Exactly how do you think any replacement for Rex could be worse?

Rex is fat and out of shape as well as a crap QB. Anyone else brought in will at worst only be a crap QB.

a 3 to 4 turnover game is not out of the question. i guess for redskins' fans, the unknown is always more interesting.

hopefully beck does well.

[smackdown 46]

Regardless how you view ASF the above is about as realistic view of the offense as you can get.

+1 On Cooley and Davis. I thought FD was in position to make a play on that first interception also, and Cooley couldn't run up that tunnel and get his benchwarmer gear fast enough.

[Oldfan]

Regardless how you view ASF the above is about as realistic view of the offense as you can get.

Overall, I agree. But, his primary anti- Beck claim -- that John is weak on dropback passes, comes purely from his imagination. We know that because, if he had any supporting evidence, ASF would have offered it in three paragraphs of stats in green and yellow.

[SirClintonPortis]

Really, was that comment necessary? This is one reason why this forum has degraded so much.

Yes, let's leave stupid posts untouched when even a donkey could realize the gist of the opening post. I suppose we all should follow your golden boy's example and post without reading the post one is responding to.

[KCClybun]

Regardless how you view ASF the above is about as realistic view of the offense as you can get.

It's realistic only up to the part where he says that Beck isn't an NFL quarterback that can work from the pocket. The fact of the matter is, we don't know yet. He looked solid in preseason up until the last game. His claim that Beck can't be a drop back quarterback who can "stand against the rush" can't be proven. I saw a couple plays versus the Eagles where the pocket broke down around him, but he stood tall in the pocket, kept his eyes down field and deliver the football.

And isn't what he's saying will happen with Beck EXACTLY what happened with Rex, even when the o-line wasn't in trouble? In fact, it's the most generalized statement there is for what defenses want to do.

Teams will figure out that they can force bad decisions by overloading the rush, and that they can spook Beck into running out of the pocket. Once he's flushed from the pocket, we'll see the sacks and the fumbles. Teams will game plan to create the bad decisions: rushed passes, and flushing Beck into traps.

Every defense tries to force bad decisions by overloading the rush and getting the quarterback to roll out of the pocket, resulting in sacks or fumbles., This was the exact gameplan teams used against Rex, and Rex is no more likely to stand in against the run and deliver a pass. Actually, he's less likely. We've all seen Rex abandon the pocket, scramble backwards for like ten yards, and wind up sacked. That's what happened versus the Cowboys. It's what happened against the Giants. It's what happened versus the Eagles.

Everything he said could be right, but the fact he keeps harping on Beck as some sort of sub NFL starting quarterback when the guy he backs is Rex Grossman, that he keeps saying things that could apply to both, and more annoyingly, that he does it just to get a rise out of people is enough to...well, get a rise out of people.

[Destructis]

I am going to root for the Skins no matter who the QB is. It's clear that we don't have a franchise QB right now and we haven't had one for years. What we have is what we have. I still like what ShanAllen have done so far. Our defense is pretty young and they are strong. We have a great defensive leader in Fletch and he is helping to teach the young guys like Rak and Kerrigan how to be a leader.

Are we going to the Super Bowl this year? Extremely unlikely. The pieces are starting to be put in place though. I really like what I see right now. What I see is foundation and progress.

So everyone stop yer ****ing

Ok I am done for now and feel much better.

[ncr2h]

It's realistic only up to the part where he says that Beck isn't an NFL quarterback that can work from the pocket. The fact of the matter is, we don't know yet. He looked solid in preseason up until the last game. His claim that Beck can't be a drop back quarterback who can "stand against the rush" can't be proven. I saw a couple plays versus the Eagles where the pocket broke down around him, but he stood tall in the pocket, kept his eyes down field and deliver the football.

And isn't what he's saying will happen with Beck EXACTLY what happened with Rex, even when the o-line wasn't in trouble? In fact, it's the most generalized statement there is for what defenses want to do.

Every defense tries to force bad decisions by overloading the rush and getting the quarterback to roll out of the pocket, resulting in sacks or fumbles., This was the exact gameplan teams used against Rex, and Rex is no more likely to stand in against the run and deliver a pass. Actually, he's less likely. We've all seen Rex abandon the pocket, scramble backwards for like ten yards, and wind up sacked. That's what happened versus the Cowboys. It's what happened against the Giants. It's what happened versus the Eagles.

Everything he said could be right, but the fact he keeps harping on Beck as some sort of sub NFL starting quarterback when the guy he backs is Rex Grossman, that he keeps saying things that could apply to both, and more annoyingly, that he does it just to get a rise out of people is enough to...well, get a rise out of people.

Grossman has been to a super bowl.

Beck was drafted by the same FO that put together one of the worst teams of all time. He started that season after 9 games, when they had gone through 2 other starters (Beck was the #3 QB behind Trent Green and Cleo Lemon). He was benched during the first quarter of his 4th game despite him being completely healthy, the Dolphins' being mathematically eliminated from the playoffs, and him being their future franchise QB. The Dolphins won their only game of the season the very next game.

Beck has done literally 0 to earn the benefit of the doubt over Grossman.

[Mr. Nostril]

John Beck's high sack percentage came as a member of the 2007 Miami Dolphins and their ****ty OLine. Not that John's our franchise QB, but his sack (and related fumble) number may be a bit inflated by the fact that bulk of his play was as a rookie on a very bad team.

I also have to say, this is a bit of a strawman argument. I don't know anyone who's arguing that Beck is our franchise QB. He's just the guy we're using right now, because we don't have a franchise QB.

[KCClybun]

Grossman has been to a super bowl.

Beck was drafted by the same FO that put together one of the worst teams of all time. He started that season after 9 games, when they had gone through 2 other starters (Beck was the #3 QB behind Trent Green and Cleo Lemon). He was benched during the first quarter of his 4th game despite him being completely healthy, the Dolphins' being mathematically eliminated from the playoffs, and him being their future franchise QB. The Dolphins won their only game of the season the very next game.

Beck has done literally 0 to earn the benefit of the doubt over Grossman.

I will see your "Grossman has been to the Super Bowl" and raise you a "Rex has turned the ball over 19 times in 9 games and has thrown 43 interceptions since 2006."

No one wanted Rex to succeed more than me. I love a comeback story. I wanted Rex to be able to prove all the doubters and haters wrong. The problem is, Rex is who everyone thought he is. He is fully capable of throwing four touchdowns in one game, then coming back the next week and throwing four interceptions.

Rex's entire career is SHROUDED in doubt. You can't trust him. You never know what Rex you're going to get. On any given Sunday, Rex can single-handidly win you the game, or single-handidly LOSE you the game.

You also misrepresent Beck's time in Miami. John Beck was supposed to do what other quarterbacks in the league have done; he was supposed to sit on the bench, learn behind a veteran like Trent Green, and learn. I actually think he was on the practice squad for the first couple weeks of the season. But yeah, 2007 was supposed to be a learning year for a quarterback who needed some seasoning. Cam Cameron caved to fan and media pressure to stop Beck.

Beck went out an played like any rookie on a bad football team would play.

Also, Cleo Lemon lost more games than Beck did that season.

But, you know, don't let the facts get in the way of your point.

[GaryGreenMonk]

Beck excels at different things than Grossman.

Several of those things may be to our advantage on this team.

1) Beck is really good at hitting the posts and crossing routes.. the 10-15 yard routes that have been missing from our game. These are the routes that Austin, Gaffney and Moss excel at. So Beck will elevate the play of all 3 of those recievers.

2) Beck is mobile. That will add a dynamic to our offense that we were missing and will be something the opposing defense must account for.

3) Beck has more ball zip and sees the field really well. I personally think he can find the open reciever faster than Grossman and get the ball there faster than Grossman.

------------------------

a couple negative...

1) Grossman probably has a more accurate deep ball than Beck. That may change though if Beck has time to gel with his WR's.

2) Our 2 biggest weapons this season were Armstrong and Davis. It'll take awhile for Beck and Armstrong to connect. I suspect Armstrong will be catchless this game. Beck also seems to not utilize his TE as well.. so we may see production from those 2 weapons decline, while production from the other 3 goes up.

Overall.. I think Beck will be an upgrade for this offense. But not insanely better... we might be able to avearage 21-23 points a game instead of 18.

[darrelgreenie]

I took a "glass half full" view of Rex that depended on other facets of the offense. These facets either never showed up or have since broken down.

You cannot excuse Rex's poor play, poor in this case is a euphemism amongst friends, by blaming it on the team around him.

Their was a QB not to long ago that actually played under horrendous circumstances and a had a career year.

In the 4th QTR of the Eagles game; with the same circumstances as Rex (OL+running game etc) Beck was far more effective.

It wasn't the circumstances holding Rex back it was Rex holding Rex back.

^^I was trying to fit another Rex in their somewhere but couldn't.

-HTTR

[KCClybun]

I don't think Rex has been accurate deep at all. One of his interceptions came on a ball where Gaffney had the coverage beat. Grossman had a pretty good pocket and time to set his feet and get some oomph on the throw, but it was underthrown. Like, bad. If he puts the ball out there, it's easily a ball that could be a touchdown. Other times when Rex has gone deep this season, it seems he's underthrown or just not had enough power behind it to really get it there.

It's funny, for a guy that's all about "EFF IT, I'M GOIN' DEEP!", his opportunities to go deep have been pretty crappy.

[BKSkinsFan]

Well seeing how well Rex has panned out, perhaps ASF's disapproval in this case is a sign that Beck will play well.