2012: Trade it all for the #1 pick(Probably Luck), even 2013 picks if needed?

[DCranon21]

One word....

NO

[RichmondRedskin88]

This thread makes me understand those who always say no to drafting QBs every year here. Even in safe QB draft class people have something bad to say about each one. Minus the Ultimately Luck apparently.

[Commander -JB-]

Name a single NFL scout that would rank Griffin ahead of Jones. Im talking about one single guy who would rank Griffin, who is relatively small for an NFL QB, hasn't played a single legit D this season, and is clearly a system QB thriving against awful defenses. I won't argue this anymore because its ridiculous to grade Griffin anywhere near Jones. To even contemplate coming out of your mouth that he's neck & neck with Andrew Luck is absolutely asinine. Ridiculous.

[darrelgreenie]

You're comparing a system QB who has ability but not on the same level at all whatsoever as guys like Luck/Jones. Period.

I don't understand what you're saying.

Are you saying that Luck and Jones are good prospects (1st round types) but that Griffin isn't?

and/or are you saying that Griffin doesn't have the same 'ability' as Luck/Jones?

If so how would you describe the abilities of Luck, Jones and Griffin?

[Conn]

Name a single NFL scout that would rank Griffin ahead of Jones. Im talking about one single guy who would rank Griffin, who is relatively small for an NFL QB, hasn't played a single legit D this season, and is clearly a system QB thriving against awful defenses. I won't argue this anymore because its ridiculous to grade Griffin anywhere near Jones. To even contemplate coming out of your mouth that he's neck & neck with Andrew Luck is absolutely asinine. Ridiculous.

This conversation is done until you can do two things:

1. Actually reference what you see from each player when they play, in comparing and contrasting them. As in, their physical skill-sets. Your posts in this thread are bush league. I take back what I said earlier--please stay the hell out of the 2012 Comprehensive Draft Database Thread. You'll just pollute it.

2. Learn to use the multi-quote feature so that you are actually responding to individual points being made. Because you seem to have a tough time understanding what's actually being said to you, and what it means. Notice how I broke up your post on the last page and responded to each individual point? People aren't going to bother responding to your blather if you don't do them a similar courtesy, and at least attempt to have a rational conversation that actually addresses points being made against your own, apparently infallible, opinion.

You are dead-set on parroting what you already "know" about these players as the truth. You are biased, and I suspect you've seen very little of Baylor in action. Why would I care if a scout , or a professional draftnik, would rank Griffin ahead of Jones right now? Use your eyes, and evaluate their skill-sets yourself, as QB prospects. Why do you need a ranking, or a stat sheet, to do that?

When you can do that, explain what you see in an unbiased manner, and communicate in a way more conducive to discussion, we'll talk.

[GWinSkins83]

Name a single NFL scout that would rank Griffin ahead of Jones. Im talking about one single guy who would rank Griffin, who is relatively small for an NFL QB, hasn't played a single legit D this season, and is clearly a system QB thriving against awful defenses. I won't argue this anymore because its ridiculous to grade Griffin anywhere near Jones. To even contemplate coming out of your mouth that he's neck & neck with Andrew Luck is absolutely asinine. Ridiculous.

Griffin is 6'2" thats not small. Next most scouts have him coming out 2013. Another thing is most scouts on websites are MEDIA. We don't know what NFL team scouts are saying nor thinking only media scouts. But anyway why let someone speak and think for you. Thats a little ignorant to come to a conclusion when you can go and watch film and make your own opinion.

[Conn]

I don't understand what you're saying.

Are you saying that Luck and Jones are good prospects (1st round types) but that Griffin isn't?

and/or are you saying that Griffin doesn't have the same 'ability' as Luck/Jones?

If so how would you describe the abilities of Luck, Jones and Griffin?

He can't describe or debate any of their physical skill-sets. He has his opinion, it seems.

[Prototype]

I would use our top pick on the best corner available....

[GWinSkins83]

I would use our top pick on the best corner available....

I wouldn't we lost that game we dont have a QB that can exploit a weak secondary. That is where we lost the game. Not the defense even though I think that we should get a corner in the first 3 rounds of next year draft. But I just think if we had a good QB we probably win by 11 pts.

[dallasfan]

Griffin is 6'2" thats not small. Next most scouts have him coming out 2013. Another thing is most scouts on websites are MEDIA. We don't know what NFL team scouts are saying nor thinking only media scouts. But anyway why let someone speak and think for you. Thats a little ignorant to come to a conclusion when you can go and watch film and make your own opinion.

6'2 is really the minimum height you want in a QB. Drew Brees and Mike Vick at 6'0 are really the exception, not the rule. Most successful NFL QBs fall in the 6'2 to 6'5 range and most college players measure in, atleast an inch shorter than their college height. Andrew Luck, Ryan Tannehill and Landry Jones are listed at 6'4, so they should atleast clear 6'2. Matt Barkley and Robert Griffen's draft stock is gonna be influenced big time by the height measurements. If they are a legit 6'2, then no big deal, but if these guys are 6 foot even, then there gonna take a huge hit.

[Commander -JB-]

I don't understand what you're saying.

Are you saying that Luck and Jones are good prospects (1st round types) but that Griffin isn't?

and/or are you saying that Griffin doesn't have the same 'ability' as Luck/Jones?

If so how would you describe the abilities of Luck, Jones and Griffin?

I am saying he doesn't have Andrew Luck/Landry Jones ability & that he's not a 1st round talent. Yes. Griffin has good mobility & is accurate but has never called plays/pre-snap reads & has inadequate height/wont be able to run in NFL against real pro defenses. I cant believe you're comparing him to the likes of NFL style QB's like Jones/Luck who can make all the throws/big bodies, great pocket presence, have proven they can make plays vs college NFL style defenses... Its simple to me who are clearly the top two QB prospects this year. Griffin won't even come out early will he ? Eh, he could be picked earlier than the 2nd if a team takes a flier on him..

He's just not Andrew Luck who's a franchise changing QB with amazing overall ability in the pocket to make every throw & has the prototypical build... Landry Jones has a great arm. Reminds me of Phillip Rivers, has a great NFL body, pocket presence, ability to make throws moving in the pocket & has succeeded vs NFL style defenses burning teams with very accurate down the field throws. I understand if you're a college fan & are enamored with Griffin's accuracy, ability to run/throw & put up huge #'s but you have to take that with a grain of salt considering he doesn't call plays & is a spread offense guy who has played weak defenses weak in and weak out.

. Im not saying I dont like the guy. He just simply won't be an NFL franchise caliber QB. Comparing him to Newton is foolish & it typical compare a black QB to another black QB just like every good white NBA player would be compared to Bird. Cam Newton is the real deal. Look what he accomplished in the SEC. He was a no brainer top selection & has great size, mobility, ability to read defenses.

[GWinSkins83]

6'2 is really the minimum height you want in a QB. Drew Brees and Mike Vick at 6'0 are really the exception, not the rule. Most successful NFL QBs fall in the 6'2 to 6'5 range and most college players measure in, atleast an inch shorter than their college height. Andrew Luck, Ryan Tannehill and Landry Jones are listed at 6'4, so they should atleast clear 6'2. Matt Barkley and Robert Griffen's draft stock is gonna be influenced big time by the height measurements. If they are a legit 6'2, then no big deal, but if these guys are 6 foot even, then there gonna take a huge hit.

Griffin looks that 6'2" I doubt his height would lower his stock.

[Commander -JB-]

I gave you my analysis. You dont have to agree. Just dont insult my ability to watch football & gauge talent.

[GWinSkins83]

I am saying he doesn't have Andrew Luck/Landry Jones ability & that he's not a 1st round talent. Yes. Griffin has good mobility & is accurate but has never called plays/pre-snap reads & has inadequate height/wont be able to run in NFL against real pro defenses. I cant believe you're comparing him to the likes of NFL style QB's like Jones/Luck who can make all the throws/big bodies, great pocket presence, have proven they can make plays vs college NFL style defenses... Its simple to me who are clearly the top two QB prospects this year. Griffin won't even come out early will he ? Eh, he could be picked earlier than the 2nd if a team takes a flier on him..

He's just not Andrew Luck who's a franchise changing QB with amazing overall ability in the pocket to make every throw & has the prototypical build... Landry Jones has a great arm. Reminds me of Phillip Rivers, has a great NFL body, pocket presence, ability to make throws moving in the pocket & has succeeded vs NFL style defenses burning teams with very accurate down the field throws. I understand if you're a college fan & are enamored with Griffin's accuracy, ability to run/throw & put up huge #'s but you have to take that with a grain of salt considering he doesn't call plays & is a spread offense guy who has played weak defenses weak in and weak out.

. Im not saying I dont like the guy. He just simply won't be an NFL franchise caliber QB. Comparing him to Newton is foolish & it typical compare a black QB to another black QB just like every good white NBA player would be compared to Bird. Cam Newton is the real deal. Look what he accomplished in the SEC. He was a no brainer top selection & has great size, mobility, ability to read defenses.

For one Jones don't make pre snap reads. The coaches do that. I really starting to think that you haven't even watched Jones play let alone Griffin. Jones run a spread offense and Jones also STRUGGLES against good defenses with elite talent around him. Jones has one of the best WR in the country, Kenny Stills was freshman All-American. Has one of the best offensive lines in the country. He has it easier but he still does not play at a level like Griffin. Griffin has great pocket awareness and resets his feet better than Jones do. Plus Jones does not handle pressure well. He is a disaster when he gets pressured. He is Rex Grossman vs pressure. Atleast Griffin can move around and I havent seen him when pressure try and force passes where it can hurt his team.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

-JB-, for someone in his first month, you sure do have a nifty knack of losing folk with your manner.

I'd check that if I was you going forward.

Hail.

[Conn]

I gave you my analysis. You dont have to agree. Just dont insult my ability to watch football & gauge talent.

To be fair, I wasn't "insulting" your ability to watch football. I was "insulting" your ability to communicate what you see out of these players effectively to others, and your ability to use the multi-quote feature to properly respond to in-depth posts.

And by that I mean that I suggested that you improve there, to help discussion in the future.

[darrelgreenie]

I am saying he doesn't have Andrew Luck/Landry Jones ability & that he's not a 1st round talent. Yes. Griffin has good mobility & is accurate but has never called plays/pre-snap reads & has inadequate height/wont be able to run in NFL against real pro defenses.

So you're 'knocks' against Griffin are: his college offense and his perceived lack of height?

I think the spread/system ding is vastly overblown in both the media and in the draftnik community, its as overblown as a prospect being more 'pro ready'.

Flacco, Bradford, Colt McCoy, Cam Newton and Blaine Gabbert all came from spread offenses.

Jimmy Clausen was considered the most 'pro ready' draft prospect in his class.

This is not a legitmate ding:

wont be able to run in NFL against real pro defenses

Unless you can predict the future you can't/shouldn't make claims like that.

Every college QB prospect faces the same question about their ability to operate an NFL offense against an NFL defense.

Griffin is listed at 6'2 but I guess his height will be a question until the combine.

I cant believe you're comparing him to the likes of NFL style QB's like Jones/Luck who can make all the throws/big bodies, great pocket presence, have proven they can make plays vs college NFL style defenses.

Who should we compare a college QB prospect with except other college QB prospects?

You're finally getting into some skillset with the bolded portion of your post.

Are you saying that Griffin can't makes all the throws, and lacks pocket presence?

Griffin can only play against the teams on his schedule.

Eh, he could be picked earlier than the 2nd if a team takes a flier on him

Are you back pedalling?

He's just not Andrew Luck who's a franchise changing QB with amazing overall ability in the pocket to make every throw & has the prototypical build... Landry Jones has a great arm.......I understand if you're a college fan & are enamored with Griffin's accuracy, ability to run/throw & put up huge #'s but you have to take that with a grain of salt considering he doesn't call plays & is a spread offense guy who has played weak defenses weak in and weak out.

Why should we take his skillset with a grain of salt? Accuracy is accuracy, the ability to run and throw are individual skills independent of the team/system.

Are you sure that Landry calls plays? I recall seeing plenty of OU plays come in from the sideline.

You're basically repeating the same things you mentioned earlier.

Cam Newton is the real deal. Look what he accomplished in the SEC. He was a no brainer top selection & has great size, mobility, ability to read defenses.

I didn't make the comparison to Newton but from a physical skillset standpoint there are some similarities there between Newton, Locker and Luck, Griffin.

All 4 QBs are playmakers that can make plays with their feet and arms.

But, lets not have revisionist history Cam has proven his ability to read defenses but it was very much a question mark during the draft process.

But, evaluators aren't drafting the QBs system or scheme.

They're drafting a QBs skillset.

[The Bounty Hunter #21]

I think it's a given that Rex is a stop gap QB for our franchise but to trade away the house just to get Luck when we do have other needs to fill just sounds irresponsible and Cerrato like.

[dallasfan]

Griffin looks that 6'2" I doubt his height would lower his stock.

whether it's right or wrong, height or lack ther of, does lower a guys stock. And we'll have to just disagree about Griffen's height. Not too many people can tell the difference between 6'0, 6'1 and 6'2 on TV, but almost all college heights are fudged by an inch or more.

[Darc Requiem]

Trading all of our picks for the number one pick would be insane....well unless you were Mike Ditka.

[Conn]

whether it's right or wrong, height or lack ther of, does lower a guys stock. And we'll have to just disagree about Griffen's height. Not too many people can tell the difference between 6'0, 6'1 and 6'2 on TV, but almost all college heights are fudged by an inch or more.

I wish some type of standardized process would be developed to stop this. There's no point to it. The NFL Combine's measurements shouldn't be such a "hold-your-breath-and-wait" experience. Obviously weights fluctuate between the end of the season and the Combine, but teams can usually see around that (except with Maybin ). But heights? We should have an exact, definite height of every player in CFB at the beginning of every season. Its inexcusable that teams are still allowed to put whatever fudged numbers they want on their websites, etc.

[skinfan2k]

When will you learn. do you think Luck will be better than 7 players and another player in 13. I beat we do our draft due diligence, we don't need luck.

[Rufus T Firefly]

I wish some type of standardized process would be developed to stop this. There's no point to it. The NFL Combine's measurements shouldn't be such a "hold-your-breath-and-wait" experience. Obviously weights fluctuate between the end of the season and the Combine, but teams can usually see around that (except with Maybin ). But heights? We should have an exact, definite height of every player in CFB at the beginning of every season. Its inexcusable that teams are still allowed to put whatever fudged numbers they want on their websites, etc.

It also does a disservice to prospects, imo. For example, if Griffin is 6' even (for argument's sake), then I think scouts would be able to watch him for 4 years and grade him accordingly. And I think they would look at his ability to play in spite of that height. But, if they think he's 6'2 and then find out he's 6 even at the combine, I think it ends up dropping him a lot lower than he would have otherwise been.

[Conn]

It also does a disservice to prospects, imo. For example, if Griffin is 6' even (for argument's sake), then I think scouts would be able to watch him for 4 years and grade him accordingly. And I think they would look at his ability to play in spite of that height. But, if they think he's 6'2 and then find out he's 6 even at the combine, I think it ends up dropping him a lot lower than he would have otherwise been.

Very true, because there's no time to adjust your thought-process. Instead of having four years to win you over in spite of his height, he's now got a couple of months of trash-talk about his height, because it was dropped on everyone as a surprise. It then overshadows his skill-set.

[Rufus T Firefly]

Very true, because there's no time to adjust your thought-process. Instead of having four years to win you over in spite of his height, he's now got a couple of months of trash-talk about his height, because it was dropped on everyone as a surprise. It then overshadows his skill-set.

Yeah, that's basically a much better written version of what I was trying to say.