2012: Trade it all for the #1 pick(Probably Luck), even 2013 picks if needed?

[Conn]

So if a Young Peyton Manning or John Elway was available but the scheme didn't fit the QB it would be okay to pass on him? Cam Newton didn't fit anyone's system but the Panthers did something extremely smart and adjusted their system to utilize his talents

Why does Cam Newton not fit "anyone's system"? You're talking out your ass, as if the Panther's created this innovative new offense. He can make every NFL throw. He just happens to also be huge and mobile. They aren't doing anything exceptionally different with him so far this year. In fact, they're throwing the ball A LOT. Which would seem to go against your misconceptions of what a team SHOULD do to mitigate the holes in his skill-set...which really aren't there, physically.

---------- Post added September-27th-2011 at 05:05 PM ----------

Did you just say Rodgers "probably" would have been better than Campbell ? Wow lmao

This is what you picked out? Use your brain and respond to the meat of the post, or don't respond at all. In

the context of the rest of my point, this made sense.

Here it is:

Of course they do. Franchise QB's are partially created, and allowed to bloom into what they have the potential to become, because of situation/coaching/supporting cast/time to develop.

Rodgers was a VERY different player coming out of college than he is now. People would have scoffed then if you told them that in 4-5 years time, Aaron Rodgers would have the best deep ball in the NFL. They would have laughed at you. He needed to sit on the bench for three years like he did, behind a HOF QB, in a stable offense with a consistent, proficient FO. He wouldn't have gotten that here. He'd be a totally different player right now, I reckon. Better than Campbell, probably, but not the stud QB he is now. Most QB's are not just "plug and play", even the ones that have franchise QB caliber skills. Rodgers the super-star "Franchise QB", right now in his prime, is a culmination of MANY factors and advantages, none of which he would have had here.

Almost every QB prospect who succeeds and DOES become that rare, elusive franchise-caliber QB, has a similar story.

[GibbsFactor]

More brilliant football minds than yourself were convinced that Ryan Leaf was at least as good of a prospect as Peyton in the 1998 NFL draft. Nothing is a sure thing.

Actually, most scouts say since Elway. For those that may not recall, Elway is widely considered the best prospect of all time. He may not have been the best, but he is certainly a top 10 QB.

The thing with Leaf is a great example of what not to do moving forward. The choice for the Colts should have been simple. Take the kid raised in sports. Luck has been raised around sports. He knows what it takes to be a pro and that's what makes him much more sure hit than a Ryan Leaf who wasn't emotionally ready for what was given to him.

[Conn]

The Colts weren't convinced. Im not convinced there is another QB on Lucks level in this draft. Only Landry Jones is in the discussion. Lmao@somebody saying Weeden who's 27... & Matt Barkley is not Landry Jones.

If Landry Jones is in the discussion, then Griffin certainly is.

[Commander -JB-]

Why are we discussing this ? Because before the season you know Rex Grossman isn't the answer moving foward. He isn't a franchise QB. 2012 is going to be all about drafting the QB, trading up or whatever the hell it takes. I know the timing of this is funny right after the first loss. Its still rational to talk about drafting a franchise QB.

[GibbsFactor]

All those arguments change for Luck, though. Most of those teams take him if they're at #1. There are a few interesting questions if certain teams get the pick:

Jags or Vikings- Just picked a QB with a first, will they take another. Possibly, if it's Luck, but who can be sure?

Bengals- Only because they're such an insanely bad franchise, maybe they draft a K #1.

Colts- Gotta believe they take Luck, but maybe they decide Peyton is such an "icon" that they should trade the pick and build up the supporting cast for Manning's final couple of seasons.

I think the Colts, Jags, Bengals and Vikings would be swayed to trade because you are going to get a ****load for that #1 this year. Someone was saying DeSean and a first. I laughed at that. How bout two firsts, a second AND DeSean? that's going to be closer to the cost.

[Commander -JB-]

If Landry Jones is in the discussion, then Griffin certainly is.

Landry Jones is clearly a more NFL caliber QB than Griffin. I'll end it with that. He's not in the discussion. Do you think Griffin puts up those #'s vs legit teams ? TCU, Stephen F. Austin & Rice ! Lmao

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Why are we discussing this ? Because before the season you know Rex Grossman isn't the answer moving foward. He isn't a franchise QB. 2012 is going to be all about drafting the QB, trading up or whatever the hell it takes. I know the timing of this is funny right after the first loss. Its still rational to talk about drafting a franchise QB.

Meh, I'd save your fingers.

Any future QB's good work will all be undone at the hands of Danny Smith's unit anyway.

Hail.

[Grizz]

I got 2 names for you

Ryan Leaf #2 overall

Aaron Rodgers #24 overall

Drafting a QB is a lot of "Luck"

[GWinSkins83]

The Colts weren't convinced. Im not convinced there is another QB on Lucks level in this draft. Only Landry Jones is in the discussion. Lmao@somebody saying Weeden who's 27... & Matt Barkley is not Landry Jones.

griffin is on that level.

---------- Post added September-27th-2011 at 05:19 PM ----------

Landry Jones is clearly a more NFL caliber QB than Griffin. I'll end it with that. He's not in the discussion. Do you think Griffin puts up those #'s vs legit teams ? TCU, Stephen F. Austin & Rice ! Lmao

In what why is Landry a better NFL caliber QB than Griffin. I can name plentiy of reason why Landry will fail in the NFL.

[Wildbunny]

The more I see that kind of thread the more I want to see Luck turn out being another Ryan Leaf or JaMarcus Russell.

[Conn]

Landry Jones is clearly a more NFL caliber QB than Griffin. I'll end it with that. He's not in the discussion. Do you think Griffin puts up those #'s vs legit teams ? TCU, Stephen F. Austin & Rice ! Lmao

...Are you unaware that TCU recently has had a top defense? Apparently not.

Have you actually watched any of these games?? I get the feeling that you haven't. Which makes your opinion absolutely worthless, because this isn't about looking at stats in a box score. Its about seeing them as prospects. Their mechanics, their footwork, their throwing motion, can they make the essential "NFL" throws, how is their ball placement. All of these things are more important than the stats or their competition. Watch both play and evaluate these things fairly, and then we'll talk. You sound pretty ignorant right now. Griffin isn't just having an excellent start to the season because he's putting up ridiculous numbers. He's having an excellent season because of what he's doing with the ball, things that you can evaluate. And Landry Jones has looked mediocre in comparison, in my opinion.

For someone who earlier used the phrase "NFL caliber", or something like it, you aren't representing yourself well in this thread.

Go spend some time in the 2012 Comprehensive Draft Database Thread.

---------- Post added September-27th-2011 at 05:27 PM ----------

The more I see that kind of thread the more I want to see Luck turn out being another Ryan Leaf or JaMarcus Russell.

I don't. That's just some weird form of bitterness/jealousy. Something. Its good for the NFL if Luck turns out to be an excellent prospect. Just like its good for the NFL if Newton continues to succeed, no matter how you feel about him. As long as these types of prospects stay away from our rivals.

[Enter Apotheosis]

The Colts weren't convinced. Im not convinced there is another QB on Lucks level in this draft. Only Landry Jones is in the discussion. Lmao@somebody saying Weeden who's 27... & Matt Barkley is not Landry Jones.

Landry Jones is clearly a more NFL caliber QB than Griffin. I'll end it with that. He's not in the discussion. Do you think Griffin puts up those #'s vs legit teams ? TCU, Stephen F. Austin & Rice ! Lmao

It's cool if you hold strong opinions and fancy yourself a good judge of prospective NFL talents but being a little more willing to acknowledge the limits of what you know would go a long way towards giving yourself some credibility.

[Conn]

It's cool if you hold strong opinions and fancy yourself a good judge of prospective NFL talents but being a little more willing to acknowledge the limits of what you know would go a long way towards giving yourself some credibility.

Agreed. Ending every post with a derisive "lmao" is a slap in the face to anyone trying to hold a real discussion, as well. JB, you can disagree with others, and debate, without acting like a prick.

[Rpredskins]

Of course it still remains to be seen if luck is the next peyton manning. but if he is, he is worth any amount of picks. Hell, if you cloned manning and sent him through the draft all over again, i would happily give up 4 first round picks for him.

At this point I'd be fine with 2 firsts and a second and maybe a 3rd for the #1 pick. Also depends a lot of which pick we have and who the #1 pick is. If that team needs a QB, they're taking him

[Conn]

Of course it still remains to be seen if luck is the next peyton manning. but if he is, he is worth any amount of picks. Hell, if you cloned manning and sent him through the draft all over again, i would happily give up 4 first round picks for him.

At this point I'd be fine with 2 firsts and a second and maybe a 3rd for the #1 pick. Also depends a lot of which pick we have and who the #1 pick is. If that team needs a QB, they're taking him

I think the front-runners right now are SEA, KC, and MIA.

I'd hate to see him in any of those places, except maybe MIA with a new head coach. Sporano probably won't make it till week 12 anyways.

I still wouldn't trade the house to prevent that and to get him to come here, though.

[Commander -JB-]

If you think RG3 is going to be drafted before Landry Jones you've lost your mind. How can you "preach" to me about all of the intangibles that QB's must exhibit like great footwork in the pocket, ability to read the defense, touch, the ability to have accuracy down the field & then throw RG3 into the discussion solely because of his ridiculous stats through 3 games vs very suspect defenses. Have YOU seen Landry Jones play against very strong NFL style defenses like Florida St. ? Making throws no other QB in college could make moving in the pocket, down the field in tight coverage ? Really ? You're comparing a system QB who has ability but not on the same level at all whatsoever as guys like Luck/Jones. Period. Give me a break with your lecture.

[GibbsFactor]

I'd be more than willing to part with the teams next two first and second round picks for the shot at number one if things stay as they are right now.

[AsburySkinsFan]

***massive signature***

You will want to adjust the size of your signature to be in line with the TOS.

[GWinSkins83]

I think JB hasn't watched a lick of film. Because if he is discounting RG3 because of his opponents than I know he has not seen the ball placements of those balls. I don't care if Revis was the CB in those games he would have got beat with those throws.

[Conn]

I think JB hasn't watched a lick of film. Because if he is discounting RG3 because of his opponents than I know he has not seen the ball placements of those balls. I don't care if Revis was the CB in those games he would have got beat with those throws.

Exactly what I'm thinking. He hasn't said a single thing to make me think he's actually seen Baylor play this year, at all.

[Commander PK]

The more I see that kind of thread the more I want to see Luck turn out being another Ryan Leaf or JaMarcus Russell.

Me to. As I have said before, I already hate the guy and it's not his fault.

[Conn]

If you think RG3 is going to be drafted before Landry Jones you've lost your mind.

You can throw out sensationalist posts like this all you want, but its not how you make a point. Why am I out of my mind if I think this? Why are you NOT out of your mind for having the opposite opinion? Learn how to hold a discussion. Tell me what you see in Jones that you don't see in Griffin. After you watch Griffin, of course. I'm still waiting on that to happen.

How can you "preach" to me about all of the intangibles that QB's must exhibit...

Didn't say anything about intangibles, although he has those in spades as well. The things you describe next are all tangibles...making me think you don't know what the hell words you're using.

...like great footwork in the pocket, ability to read the defense, touch, the ability to have accuracy down the field & then throw RG3 into the discussion solely because of his ridiculous stats through 3 games vs very suspect defenses.

Can you read? If you could, you'd have seen my posts detailing the fact that this has NOTHING to do with his stats, or his competition. In fact, I SPECIFICALLY said the opposite. Here you go:

Its about seeing them as prospects. Their mechanics, their footwork, their throwing motion, can they make the essential "NFL" throws, how is their ball placement. All of these things are more important than the stats or their competition.

That's what I said. Yet you attributed the exact opposite argument to me. Get your **** together, man, if we're going to have this discussion.

If you watch Griffin actually play, hell, watch a highlight video, you'll see him making NFL throws with velocity and accuracy, and placing the ball perfectly, with a pretty clean throwing motion. Those are things that can be evaluated no matter the stats, scheme, or competition. I don't think you know how to evaluate a prospect at all. We're all amateurs. But at least try to be unbiased and put in some work to form your opinion, rather than vomiting all of this crap all over my screen.

Making throws no other QB in college could make moving in the pocket, down the field in tight coverage ? Really ? You're comparing a system QB who has ability but not on the same level at all whatsoever as guys like Luck/Jones.

I don't agree with this either, at all. I don't think he makes good decisions on any kind of consistent basis, and I think his arm is rather overrated. He's going to be entering the NFL draft, and he STILL throws into triple coverage and stares down his receivers constantly.

Edit: I'd also like to make a formal request that you learn how to use the "multi-quote" feature of this board, so that you can respond to points individually. This helps to cut down on misunderstandings, and makes the discussion flow much better. When you throw up a single huge paragraph every time, and don't break down individual points, you're not doing the discussion justice.

[GWinSkins83]

If you think RG3 is going to be drafted before Landry Jones you've lost your mind. How can you "preach" to me about all of the intangibles that QB's must exhibit like great footwork in the pocket, ability to read the defense, touch, the ability to have accuracy down the field & then throw RG3 into the discussion solely because of his ridiculous stats through 3 games vs very suspect defenses. Have YOU seen Landry Jones play against very strong NFL style defenses like Florida St. ? Making throws no other QB in college could make moving in the pocket, down the field in tight coverage ? Really ? You're comparing a system QB who has ability but not on the same level at all whatsoever as guys like Luck/Jones. Period. Give me a break with your lecture.

The intangibles that you brought up is exactly the things RG3 is doing great right now. Its not that he is throwing 5 tds but like Trent Dilfter would say is he is thowing straight DIMES. He throw anticapation throws at a high level. He reads defense just as good as Jones if not better. RG3 accuracy down field is way better than Jone's this year. Evidently you haven't seen Griffin this year seem you been under a rock. Your argument here hold no weight right now because Griffin looks like the superior QB out of the two. Oh and Jones have a Rex Grossman problem with not handling pressure well. He makes bad reads and throw passes that should not have been thrown.

[dallasfan]

...Are you unaware that TCU recently has had a top defense? Apparently not.

Couple of things, last year TCU had the #1 total defense in yards per game (228.5 ypg), this year they are ranked 84th (397.3 ypg), so I wouldn't consider them a top defense now. Also, Rober Griffen is going to benefit a lot in people's minds, due to the success of Cam Newton. Just like, right or wrong, people compared Newton to JaMarcus Russell and Vince Young, people are going to look at Griffen and believe his skill set can transfer to the NFL, just like Cam Newton and I think these people are wrong.

Cam Newton is 6'5 (was listed at 6'6 in college) and has prototypical NFL size. Robert Griffen is listed at 6'2, which likely means he's 6'1 or shorter, which would mean he's among the shortest NFL QBs. Both Newton and Griffen played in a similar spread system, but I really think Griffen is going to struggle in a pro style offense due to his infamiliarity as well as his height.

[Conn]

Cam Newton is 6'5 (was listed at 6'6 in college) and has prototypical NFL size. Robert Griffen is listed at 6'2, which likely means he's 6'1 or shorter, which would mean he's among the shortest NFL QBs. Both Newton and Griffen played in a similar spread system, but I really think Griffen is going to struggle in a pro style offense due to his infamiliarity as well as his height.

This is all well and good, but I'm not personally comparing Griffin to Newton. Just because he's another passer who also happens to be athletic, doesn't mean they are very similar prospects.

The other thing with Griffin is that the guy has been taking snaps at QB for 4 years (with one of them lost to injury, basically). Its a spread offense,but he's got a huge amount of experience leading an offense. Guys like Newton and Bradford are proving that spread QB's can pick up NFL offenses quickly. I don't necessarily worry about that anymore with many prospects, especially since I'm not drafting a franchise QB to start day one unless he earns it anyways. But if anyone can make the transition, its Griffin, mentally. The guy's already going to earn his Master's by this spring, and apparently if he doesn't declare, and finishes out his eligibility, he's going to be a Law student his final year. The kids intelligent, to go along with everything else.