Interesting clip - Herman Cain debates the President on health care...

[No Excuses]

This is interesting, maybe I misjudged Cain. It was probably because the first time I heard the guy talk was when he gave his spiel on banning mosques. From then on I labled his as a nut.

What, specifically, do you find redeeming?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/post/herman-cain-strives-for-new-levels-of-anti-muslim-buffoonery/2011/03/04/gIQAJ7WpLI_blog.html

This isn't the only boneheaded and stupid thing he's said either. I wish during the debates he would be pressed on some of these statements he's made.

[jpyaks3]

Bigotry aside, Herman Cain is flat out ignorant on a whole lot of issues, it is really surprising. His bull**** like no bill longer than 3 pages, the ridiculous 9-9-9 plan, and his total lack of understanding of things like Palestinian Right of Return and the fact that he keeps bringing up the fascist Pinochet regime as a model for our policies, is quite frankly astounding. He is the perfect representation of the Tea Party someone who thinks common sense solutions are all we need when really he just doesn't understand the issues or how the government really works.

[Dan T.]

You know who would have a kick-ass health care plan? The Guy on a Buffalo.

[Jumbo]

Vote as you will,I see things differently.

I don't mind ya choosing to be unhappy with your vote.

The first sentence may define "superfluous."

As to the second, if anyone has been truly "happy" with the results of their vote for President since I've been alive, or believes they will be amongst those currently available, then I would see them as fairly dim in the matter, relatively speaking.

[Prosperity]

13cmk8z0YpE

I'll think the plan is stupid because all it is going to do is accelerate the death of the middle class, but obviously I would, and I realize some may disagree. But that plan sounds like pretty standard GOP talking points, only more specific.

Get rid of capital gains tax? check

get rid of inheritance tax? check

flat income tax? check

sales tax? check

claim that all these tax cuts are going to spur so much economic growth that the government will increase revenues? check

this sort of reinforces the idea that this guy has no F'n idea what he is talking about.

[Predicto]

Bigotry aside, Herman Cain is flat out ignorant on a whole lot of issues, it is really surprising. His bull**** like no bill longer than 3 pages, the ridiculous 9-9-9 plan, and his total lack of understanding of things like Palestinian Right of Return and the fact that he keeps bringing up the fascist Pinochet regime as a model for our policies, is quite frankly astounding. He is the perfect representation of the Tea Party someone who thinks common sense solutions are all we need when really he just doesn't understand the issues or how the government really works.

This.

The Tea Party seems to operate on the principle of: "If I feel a candidate is speaking to me, and shares my personal values, then I'm just going to assume that what he (or she) is saying makes sense, and investigate no further."

[Wrong Direction]

Oh yeah. Executive experience, right?

Cmon' that's really kind of a dumb thing to say. Obama was a law professor, then a state senator, then a US senator. It is true that he wasn't a US senator for very long, and was less seasoned than most candidates, but you aren't comparing him to Gingrich or Perry. You are comparing him to Herman Cain.

Herman Cain has virtually no experience in government at any level . You may think that running a government is the same as running a business, but it really isn't. He would never, ever have been considered a serious candidate for President if the Tea Party hadn't glommed on to him as their token proof that they don't hate black people.

In government and business, academics are laughed at because they're disconnected from reality. They think they're so smart, but the practicality of their opinions and solutions is very frequently lacking.

In academics and business, government is ridiculed for never getting it right. Academics think they know better and business knows the government cannot make one set of good rules which apply to all.

In government and academia, businesses are self-interested and greedy, with little to no focus on the greater good.

Herman Cain comes from the business world. In that world, he doesn't have to be as scripted and he doesn't need a foreign policy outside of his own supply considerations. As such, he is clearly less prepared to have a fully considered and appropriately PC position on every issue. However, in his position he is unique insofar as he's had to actually accomplish something, hire and fire as needed and make things work in order to succeed.

Barrack Obama came from academia, with a smattering of government related "community organizing" and state Senate work. He cannot draw from any experience in the US Senate because he had almost none. His experience was associated with theory, not practicality, and knowing how to talk to other academics in PC ways. In that regard, I'm 100% sure that he APPEARED more prepared, but I'm far from certain that he was as prepared as 50% of the posters in this forum to actually run a government.

[Edit: for Cain, I'd also note that this is why he focus on solution oriented rhetoric.

For Obama, I'd also note that he's from the political government world, not the bureaucratic world that actually writes rules. In that regard, he's even less associated with real world application of theory to problems than many bureaucrats.]

[alexey]

Barrack Obama came from academia, with a smattering of government related "community organizing" and state Senate work. He cannot draw from any experience in the US Senate because he had almost none. His experience was associated with theory, not practicality, and knowing how to talk to other academics in PC ways. In that regard, I'm 100% sure that he APPEARED more prepared, but I'm far from certain that he was as prepared as 50% of the posters in this forum to actually run a government.

....

I do not agree with this.

I think Obama's problem was that he never actually tried to transform the government like he promised.

[Predicto]

In government and business, academics are laughed at because they're disconnected from reality. They think they're so smart, but the practicality of their opinions and solutions is very frequently lacking.

In academics and business, government is ridiculed for never getting it right. Academics think they know better and business knows the government cannot make one set of good rules which apply to all.

In government and academia, businesses are self-interested and greedy, with little to no focus on the greater good.

Herman Cain comes from the business world. In that world, he doesn't have to be as scripted and he doesn't need a foreign policy outside of his own supply considerations. As such, he is clearly less prepared to have a fully considered and appropriately PC position on every issue. However, in his position he is unique insofar as he's had to actually accomplish something, hire and fire as needed and make things work in order to succeed.

Barrack Obama came from academia, with a smattering of government related "community organizing" and state Senate work. He cannot draw from any experience in the US Senate because he had almost none. His experience was associated with theory, not practicality, and knowing how to talk to other academics in PC ways. In that regard, I'm 100% sure that he APPEARED more prepared, but I'm far from certain that he was as prepared as 50% of the posters in this forum to actually run a government.

[Edit: for Cain, I'd also note that this is why he focus on solution oriented rhetoric.

For Obama, I'd also note that he's from the political government world, not the bureaucratic world that actually writes rules. In that regard, he's even less associated with real world application of theory to problems than many bureaucrats.]

I have no doubt that you believe this, but to me, it is nonsense. I might say you had a point if you were talking about Mitt Romney or Dick Cheney or some other person who has both government and business experience, but you aren't. You are talking about Herman Cain.

Cain's own statements make it clear that he doesn't understand a blessed thing about foreign policy, about the law, about health care, about social policy, about the protections of our Constitution, hell, about anything other than a businessman's bottom line profit.

It's not about taking "PC" positions - it's about having any experience thinking about any of these issues at all. Newt has it, Perry has it, Bachmann has it, Santorum has it, Romney has it, Paul has it, and even though I disagree with all of them to varying degrees, at least I know that all of them have wrestled with policy issues bigger than advertising budgets and rising mozzarella cheese prices. Even as a businessman, it's not like Cain was the CEO of General Electric or Exxon - he ran a minor pizza chain.

Simply put, he's not there on that stage because he is a famed conservative businessman, but because he is a black conservative businessman.

Moreover, Obama's "smattering" of legislative work was over a decade long, after teaching Constitutional law. That is real experience in government, not just academia. Maybe not enough real experience for some people, I get that, but its still a zillion times more than Cain has. Fact is, every candidate in the GOP has a zillion times more real experience than Cain does as well. Every candidate since Ross Perot has had a zillion times more experience than Cain has.

[PeterMP]

However, in his position he is unique insofar as he's had to actually accomplish something, hire and fire as needed and make things work in order to succeed.

Why do people seem to think that nobody ever gets fired in academia? Why do people seem to think that people in academia don't have budgets? What do people think happens when states cut funding to higher education? What do people think happens when endowments are down and interest on invested endowments are down?

[Predicto]

Why do people seem to think that nobody ever gets fired in academia? Why do people seem to think that people in academia don't have budgets? What do people think happens when states cut funding to higher education? What do people think happens when endowments are down and interest on invested endowments are down?

Businessmen are the only real Americans.

And Pizza businessmen are the most American of all.

[PeterMP]

Businessmen are the only real Americans.

And Pizza businessmen are the most American of all.

Seriously, you'd think nobody had ever come to a Department chair and said, 'Our budget has been cut so we are cutting your department's budget. You currently have 8 support staff, but we are giving you a budget that will allow you to only keep 7 of them at their current salaries. Let us know what you do.'

I won't even get into the sciences were you have grants and then people you are paying off the grant and what happens when you "lose" a grant or somebody is working hard enough so if you keep them on pay roll you'll likely "lose" your grant.

[Wrong Direction]

Cain's own statements make it clear that he doesn't understand a blessed thing about foreign policy, about the law, about health care, about social policy, about the protections of our Constitution, hell, about anything other than a businessman's bottom line profit.

And I'm saying Obama's policies in these areas were at least as empty, but wrapped in a nice package of platitudes and talking points meant to make the anti-war left happy.

Simply put, he's not there on that stage because he is a famed conservative businessman, but because he is a black conservative businessman.

Obviously true, and the Trump stuff was 100% because Republicans are wary of being called discriminators against peoople with terrible hair too. Whatever.

Why do people seem to think that nobody ever gets fired in academia? Why do people seem to think that people in academia don't have budgets? What do people think happens when states cut funding to higher education? What do people think happens when endowments are down and interest on invested endowments are down?

Boo hoo. Woe is Peter. Please tell me which of the three groups of people I complimented when I took 10-20 words to generally talk about stereotypes. Was it the greedy businessmen, the incompetent bureaucrats or the out of touch academics? I never said academia has no upside just like I didn't say all businessmen have no social conscience and are greedy.

My point was and is that Herman Cain is more than a few quotes on questions he's clearly never been asked before. Should he be better prepared? Yes. Does he have real meaningful experience working with a bottom line? Yes. Barrack Obama did have more than a smattering of State Senate experience. On that I was wrong (i just read more about his pre-Senate days). I still say that Herman Cain is better prepared than Obama to help people become employed today, much less in 2008.

[PeterMP]

My point was and is that Herman Cain is more than a few quotes on questions he's clearly never been asked before. Should he be better prepared? Yes. Does he have real meaningful experience working with a bottom line? Yes. Barrack Obama did have more than a smattering of State Senate experience. On that I was wrong (i just read more about his pre-Senate days). I still say that Herman Cain is better prepared than Obama to help people become employed today, much less in 2008.

Of course, that's not the part of your comment that I responded to. I didn't quote the part where you said that in business and government that academics are considered disconnected from reality.

The point that I responded to was where you claimed that Cain was UNIQUE because he had to hire and fire people. Now, I don't know what Obama's real role was in terms of the function of the Department and Law School while he was at the University of Chicago in terms of hiring, firing and managing a department in terms of a budget. Heck, I don't know how ANY law school is set up in terms of those sorts of things. I don't know what role that Obama played with respect to those same issues in the non-profits he was associated with. I don't know if how the state of IL works its budgets for it senate staffs or what role Obama played in managing his staff. I don't know if Obama has ever been part of a decision to fire somebody or not.

I also don't know how much Cain was really involved in those same types of decisions either.

I'm also willing to bet that you don't either.

[zoony]

In government and business, academics are laughed at because they're disconnected from reality. They think they're so smart, but the practicality of their opinions and solutions is very frequently lacking.

I have no doubt that this is popular sentiment among ignorant tea partiers and 2nd shift workers at the local Wal Mart who have convinced themselves that they are smarter than everyone as part of their natural defense mechanism, but it couldn't be more disconnected from reality.

The most profitable and prestigous companies in the most cutting edge industries of the world do their hiring from top academic institutions and rely on publications from said institutions.

[Prosperity]

This was a Zogby poll, and Zogby polls suck

in most other polls Cain is a distant 4th or 3rd place, though in the Fox News poll he is a close #2/3

And I'm saying Obama's policies in these areas were at least as empty, but wrapped in a nice package of platitudes and talking points meant to make the anti-war left happy.

Obama has done a fantastic job in foreign policy, you have to concede that

[Baculus]

Gee, thanks for opposing health care reform, Mr. Cain. Now our costs have tripled since the early-to-mid 90s, and our problems have worsened. And only 1/3 of his employees had health care coverage? That's a terrible rate. This is his plan for America?

So if Cain wasn't right back in '94, why do we want to trust him now?

---------- Post added September-29th-2011 at 05:04 PM ----------

This.

The Tea Party seems to operate on the principle of: "If I feel a candidate is speaking to me, and shares my personal values, then I'm just going to assume that what he (or she) is saying makes sense, and investigate no further."

Ever so true.

[Chicken Fried]

It seems the right is looking for someone who can beat Obama so bad they are basically just waiting for any sign of the wind to blow in a certain direction and will instantly switch their support to t hat candidate in hoping they catch on beyond a "flavor of the month" appeal.

Really? I'm still holding out for Ron Paul haha!

[Wrong Direction]

I actually received the note below in an e-mail, but it's confirmed on Cain's website. Right...B.O. was more qualified.

http://www.hermancain.com/about

Herman Cain bio:

■Bachelor’s degree in Mathematics.

■Master’s degree in Computer Science.

■Mathematician for the Navy, where he worked on missile ballistics (making him a rocket scientist).

■Computer systems analyst for Coca-Cola.

■VP of Corporate Data Systems and Services for Pillsbury (this is the top of the ladder in the computer world, being in charge of information systems for a major corporation). All achieved before reaching the age of 35. Since he reached the top of the information systems world, he changed careers!

■ Business Manager. Took charge of Pillsbury’s 400 Burger King restaurants in the Philadelphia area, which were the company’s poorest performers in the country. Spent the first nine months learning the business from the ground up, cooking hamburger and yes, cleaning toilets. After three years he had turned them into the company’s best performers.

■Godfather’s Pizza CEO. Was asked by Pillsbury to take charge of their Godfather’s Pizza chain (which was on the verge of bankruptcy). He made it profitable in 14 months.

■In 1988 he led a buyout of the Godfather’s Pizza chain from Pillsbury. He was now the owner of a restaurant chain. Again he reached the top of the ladder of another industry.

■He was also chairman of the National Restaurant Association during this time. This is a group that interacts with government on behalf of the restaurant industry, and it gave him political experience from the non-politician side. Having reached the top of a second industry, he changed careers again!

■Adviser to the Federal Reserve System. Herman Cain went to work for the Federal Reserve Banking System advising them on how monetary policy changes would affect American businesses.

■Chairman of the Kansas City Federal Reserve Bank. He worked his way up to the chairmanship of a regional Federal Reserve bank. This is only one step below the chairmanship of the entire Federal Reserve System (the top banking position in the country). This position allowed him to see how monetary policy is made from the inside, and understand the political forces that impact the monetary system. After reaching the top of the banking industry, he changed careers for a fourth time!

■Writer and public speaker. He then started to write and speak on leadership. His books include Speak as a Leader, CEO of Self, Leadership is Common Sense, and They Think You’re Stupid.

■Radio Host. Around 2007—after a remarkable 40 year career—he started hosting a radio show on WSB in Atlanta (the largest talk radio station in the country). He did all this starting from rock bottom (his father was a chauffeur and his mother was a maid). When you add up his accomplishments in his life—including reaching the top of three unrelated industries: information systems, business management, and banking—Herman Cain may have the most impressive resume of anyone that has run for the presidency in the last half century.

[Prosperity]

If he's so smart, how come he says so many ****ing retarded things?

Though more on point, I don't doubt that he's got some skills, but doesn't strike me as a reflective sort of person, or one with the best judgment, though he may have business acumen and work ethic.

And seriously, being the CEO of a moderately successful franchise is not some hot **** accomplishment when you are running for President. The isn't the little Leagues anymore.

[Wrong Direction]

If he's so smart, how come he says so many ****ing retarded things?

Though more on point, I don't doubt that he's got some skills, but doesn't strike me as a reflective sort of person, or one with the best judgment, though he may have business acumen and work ethic.

And seriously, being the CEO of a moderately successful franchise is not some hot **** accomplishment when you are running for President. The isn't the little Leagues anymore.

If he was just CEO of moderately successful franchise, your dismissal of him would make your bias less obvious. However, that little diddy about the federal reserve deserves some notice, not to mention that he demonstrated both technical competence and business acumen throughout his career. The man is not a dummy.

On his "retarded" statements, I chalk it up to him being an outsider. They came when he was a relatively new candidate and simply not prepared for the scrutiny of a campaign for President. We'll see if he keeps saying them. My best guess is that this man will be pretty darn refined by the time the primaries roll around, and he'd be incredibly refined by the time a general election rolls around. Such is the growth from private citizen to public figure.

I'm still desperately seeking Christie, for what it's worth. However, while I do doubt the specifics of his 999 plan* and I want to hear him better articulate policies in a variety of topics** (especially foreign), I absolutely think Cain has the intellect and abilities to become a good President. Only time will tell if he can work with R's and D's, on the surface I think he's much better qualified than Obama was.

* For what it's worth, I doubt the specifics of just about every politician's polyanna campaign pledges. This goes for R's and D's.

** While not often discussed, I do believe Cain has positioned himself as well as anyone on healthcare and social security reform. On this point, I'm sure many of you D's on this board would disagree, but association health plans and the Chilean model (for SS) are both great starting points for any reform discussion.

[Prosperity]

You say he will be refined, but that's not the problem I have. It's one thing to get more comfortable on camera and get your message out more clearly, that's refinement. Refinement is not his issue. For example, his answer on mosque bans could use refinement, but even after refinement it would still be some bigoted BS, it would just more clearly convey his bigotry to America. It's not that he needs refinement, this guy clearly has no idea how our Constitution works. What he needs is not refinement but a well rounded education and some policy experience. He has neither.

How can someone be that ignorant of the Constitution and have a credible desire to be President. How come he didn't try to learn about the Constitution BEFORE he entered into a race. There is no short term solution for that. Who wants to vote for a POTUS, betting that he'll figure out the Constitution at some future indeterminate time? Who the **** even considers running for POTUS without a simple understanding? It was an amazing display of arrogance and ignorance, and one that I won't forgive him for.

[Baculus]

I actually received the note below in an e-mail, but it's confirmed on Cain's website. Right...B.O. was more qualified.

http://www.hermancain.com/about

Herman Cain bio:

All those "credentials" and he still doesn't know the 101 basics of the Constitution . . . so how is he qualified again?

[Special K]

I still dislike all the GOP candidates. And I very much dislike Obama's policies. I'm becoming more depressed by the day as the realization sinks in that I'm probably screwed when it comes to voting next November.

[mcsluggo]

If he was just CEO of moderately successful franchise, your dismissal of him would make your bias less obvious. However, that little diddy about the federal reserve deserves some notice, not to mention that he demonstrated both technical competence and business acumen throughout his career. The man is not a dummy.

On his "retarded" statements, I chalk it up to him being an outsider. They came when he was a relatively new candidate and simply not prepared for the scrutiny of a campaign for President. We'll see if he keeps saying them. My best guess is that this man will be pretty darn refined by the time the primaries roll around, and he'd be incredibly refined by the time a general election rolls around. Such is the growth from private citizen to public figure.

I'm still desperately seeking Christie, for what it's worth. However, while I do doubt the specifics of his 999 plan* and I want to hear him better articulate policies in a variety of topics** (especially foreign), I absolutely think Cain has the intellect and abilities to become a good President. Only time will tell if he can work with R's and D's, on the surface I think he's much better qualified than Obama was.

* For what it's worth, I doubt the specifics of just about every politician's polyanna campaign pledges. This goes for R's and D's.

** While not often discussed, I do believe Cain has positioned himself as well as anyone on healthcare and social security reform. On this point, I'm sure many of you D's on this board would disagree, but association health plans and the Chilean model (for SS) are both great starting points for any reform discussion.

there is no doubt... he is NOT an idiot. But he does say idiotic things sometimes. and the "he is new to all this" explanation loses a little bit of ooomph when you recognizr that mr Cain has essentially devoted at least the last 10 years to running for president.

a better explanation might be... . he said many of those things when he was still TOTALLY a fringe canidate. From THAT perspective, saying ANYHTING that got him noticed was worth it.... but the probem is that now that he has gotten noticed, he has to account for all that wailing from the sidelines.