Per Adam Schefter: Arizona trades Tim Hightower to Skins for Vonnie Holliday and pick

[Est.1974]

Love this trade -

Go with 4 RB's, one rookie to the PS, Torain has only 9 career start so can't be fully relied upon yet. Hightower brings that 3rd down option - plus option to step up if Torain is nicked up. Helu makes the roster as the change of pace guy - K.Williams competes for the 3rd back roll / maybe even fullback. Throw in the move to put Big Mike at TE and this thing is really getting shaken up. Great.

[JoeSkins]

Wait, Vonnie Holliday?

I balked a little at that, too.

[addicted]

Wait, Vonnie Holliday?

I balked a little at that, too.

Guys the problem with Vonnie Holiday is that his value just isn't going to show up on your nfl.com stat sheet

First off he was an excellent locker room leader, even represeted the team in labor negoitations

Second off he was great and has been great at his job for years. Including last season

http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/03/28/secret-superstar-vonnie-holliday/

Strong Again

2010 was another year where Holliday finished in the top ten of our 3-4 defensive end rankings. He ended up ninth (after two years in the top three) and played exceptionally well in nickel situations. Ending the year with only three sacks isn’t going to set any tongues wagging, but his 25 total quarterback disruptions on 295 pass rushes was the fifth best ratio of any 3-4 end.

That was better than ends like Darnell Dockett, Glenn Dorsey and Luis Castillo. Players with bigger reps, and bigger contracts.

We saw Holliday make life particularly tough for the guards of the AFC South, where Vince Manuwai, Jake Scott, and Kyle DeVan all found him too much to deal with. If he wasn’t beating them on their inside shoulder, he was straight bull rushing them and they just didn’t have an answer.

Use Him Right

There is an argument to be made that he struggled against some of the league’s better guards – he didn’t get much change out of either Giants starter, or Dallas’ Leonard Davis. There’s also the fact that while he beat some, he didn’t dominate to the point of taking over a game. Throw in his situational use, and you’ve got a limited player.

But, he does perform a role, and performs it better than most. Perhaps Secret Superstar is too strong a term, but then, on a Redskins team that struggled as obviously as they did, there aren’t many secrets out there.

The role of Vonnie Holliday is something to applaud.

[Conn]

The role of Vonnie Holliday was a 36 year old on a rebuilding team, I don't care how well he played in limited snaps.

[The Tris]

I wasn't objecting to the fact that Holliday was a productive player, I was objecting that you believe him to be one of the best 3-4 DEs in the NFL.

[TeddyKGB]

addicted,

While I agree with you about Holliday being more productive then people here give him credit for, I also tend to think a lot of the pass-protection stats from Hightower you throw around are a little skewed as well. If these are just pass-blocking stats from last year then what do you expect when Arizona is basically starting 2 rookie QB's(Skelton/Starks). I'd like to see some pass blocking stats of his from 2008 when they still had Kurt Warner in form - a QB who knows to get rid of the ball after 3 seconds. I don't think that Hightower is a bonafide stud but I don't think hes poo-poo garbage either.

From 2008-2011 from your chart you linked(RB's with worse PP then Hightower from that period) + their Yards per carry from 2011:

YpC

4.6 | Adrian Peterson

3.8 | Steven Jackson

4.0 | Ray Rice

4.2 | L . Tomlinson

4.2 | Frank Gore

4.3 | Chris Johnson

4.8 | Tim Hightower

3.4 | Beanie Wells (same offensive line)

Again I don't think Hightower is some kind of stud either - based off his fumbles and his inability of being an everydown back. But he's shown improvement every year he's been in the league so far, hence I'm not going to judge him off of his pass protection in 2010 while blocking for Skelton/Starks and flameouts D Anderson/ Leinart.

In reality both teams traded players that they were both likely to cut this year. I don't care how much of a leader Vonnie became in his 1-2 years here. The heart and soul of our defense is London and unlike the other great leaders we've lost this offseason, he's the one defensive player that is on the field every snap - not just on 3rd and 15.

[jflow78]

Some numbers for you to consider:

Thanks for the numbers. I agree he doesn't look like he was one of the better receivers, but couldn't it have something to do with the scheme? I'm not saying it does, I'm just saying it's not out of the question that he could have had better receiving numbers in another scheme, MAYBE.

I honestly don't know, I don't watch Arizona ever so I haven't seen much of the guy. Hopefully he turns into one of Mike's amazing RB miracles.

[SWFLSkins]

The facepalm is giving up our best pass rushing defensive lineman AND a draft pick for a running back who fumbles more than Ladell Betts. I wouldn't dislike it so much if we kept the pick.

Yeah because we all know Vonnies upside has not been reached yet? 2.5 sacks. We don't know the pick, it might be one of the dumb 6's we got.

[darrelgreenie]

He's high-effort... which makes up for his lack of physical talent.

Why do you say he lacks physical talent? Good size, good speed, good cutting/juking ability.

Would you say he's less physically talented then Torain?

Hightower will make the simple cut and hit the hole hard.

That might seem a little contradictory to the "high effort" note from above, but it's not his effort that's misplaced, it's his mentality. He thinks he's an explosive scat back. And true enough he's had some big plays. But he left a career as a starting running back in the NFL behind by trying to bust every play for 60 (when he's really not that type of back) instead of getting the sure 4 yarder. To make things worse his high effort gets him in trouble by trying to fight for extra yards. It's weird. He doesn't seem to do a good job breaking tackles, but on the way down he'll fight for that extra inch and either have the ball punched out or hit it out himself with his knee.

You may be right about all of the above although his ypc speaks to him being a productive back at 4.8 yards a clip.

But, obviously I don't think Bobby Turner is concerned about any of that.

Bobby Turner is looking for talent and a certain skillset.

As long as Hightower is willing accept coaching and embrace the one-cut system I think he'll be a more productive back then Torain because I think Hightower is more talented.

[Commander Adama]

I said yesterday the FO stopped trading picks, and then they go and do this. Not sure why we need yet another RB.

I know we might find another Tom Brady with the 6th or 7th round pick we might be trading. /Sarcastic

[Big Will]

I wonder if this trade means that our coaches liked what they saw already in Jarvis Jenkins and Darion Scott at DE. ie: showed in shape and coach-able.

Shanny spoke of the "depth" at the DE in regards to speaking with Holliday about the trade (Seen in his post practice interview 8/1). Looking at what we have behind Bowen and Carriker as far as depth is: Jenkins and Scott.

[darrelgreenie]

I agree with you about Keiland Williams. They are probably just going to cut ties with him. There isn't even going to be a PS spot for him.

If Kei can give you solid play at 2 postion RB and FB there's no way they cut him.

[addicted]

addicted,

While I agree with you about Holliday being more productive then people here give him credit for, I also tend to think a lot of the pass-protection stats from Hightower you throw around are a little skewed as well. If these are just pass-blocking stats from last year then what do you expect when Arizona is basically starting 2 rookie QB's(Skelton/Starks). I'd like to see some pass blocking stats of his from 2008 when they still had Kurt Warner in form - a QB who knows to get rid of the ball after 3 seconds. I don't think that Hightower is a bonafide stud but I don't think hes poo-poo garbage either.

2008 was his rookie year, no clue as to how he did then but maybe your onto something

Thing is

I never believe that teams enter trades for no reason or give up players without reason

And before DG can utter the words "regime change" to me it speaks loudly, very loudly, how the Cards drafted not one but two high round draft RB's in the years after TH was with the same regime.

If he was the answer why did they do that?

And if TH was on the trade block was this the best they could get for a 25 year old RB?

Again I don't think Hightower is some kind of stud either - based off his fumbles and his inability of being an everydown back. But he's shown improvement every year he's been in the league so far, hence I'm not going to judge him off of his pass protection in 2010 while blocking for Skelton/Starks and flameouts D Anderson/ Leinart.

Hey that's fair

Im not asking you too

I hope nothing but the best for him here I just don't see a lot to like about this trade

Why do you say he lacks physical talent? Good size, good speed, good cutting/juking ability.

Would you say he's less physically talented then Torain?

Hightower will make the simple cut and hit the hole hard.

The thing that speaks to me about his ability to rack up yards is his really bad yards per carry per pass attempt

In three seasons he's never gone over 7 yards a catch

That's like a cloud of dust and nothing

If he was so hard to bring down like Torain he's have more production in three years

In my opinion Torain is more talented

[bedlamVR]

My Thoughts -

Loosing Holliday and Daniels in the same year is a statement - we are looking for the next generation of leaders - I am not discounting what Daniels and Holliday can do but the team is looking beyond 2011 ...

Holliday was a very productive player for us - I really did like him but the team has a philosophy this season which is colouring who we want on the roster - for the first time in a long time you can see the identity of the team developing .

Hightower fills the need for a 3rd down back . I think we go 4 RB and 1 FB - The reason K.Williams and Young are battling at FB is because we want to go young on a position we barely use - if Williams and Young flame out then we have Sellers on standby - One of the oldest guys on the roster right now . If we go 4RBs then I can see the 4 being Torrain (possibly providing he isn't hurt), Helu, Hightower and Royster and at FB Williams or Young or Sellers .

The only negative I see is that we have traded away depth on the DL for skill positions on the offense . We need some more bodies at LB and DE ...

[TeddyKGB]

While I'm not saying this trade is a great one - I think its better then moves made in the past.

I will remind people though that think Hightower will be the starter over Torain. The guy is not full time running back. He has been given full time carries before and never emerged as an everydown back. I think he is perfect for his role though as a 3rd down or RBBC/change-of-pace back.

Some quickees I like:

• He's got home-run threat ability as evidenced by his 80yarder last year.
  
• While hes no CP as a pass-protector, he is at least experienced as a blocker in a pass-heavy offense.
  
• His running stats have improved every year.
  
• He's played and come up big in big-time games - playoffs.
  
• And most of all the guy is a TD Vulture when it comes to the redzone - which our redzone efficiency here the last decade has been near abysmal.
  

Why do I think AZ let him go? We'll for one I think drafting Ryan Williams is a major factor and for two I think that the cards feel they can get the same production from Stephens-Rowling as a 3rd down back, which makes Hightower expendable as a RB with one year left on his deal.

Why is he only worth a late round draft pick? Well that's mainly due to the super-saturated market of Free Agent RB's right now.

See of all the Free agent backs right now I would of liked to get Snelling from ATL but the thing is, is that Snelling is too similar to Torain instead of complimentary.

[darrelgreenie]

The thing that speaks to me about his ability to rack up yards is his really bad yards per carry per pass attempt

In three seasons he's never gone over 7 yards a catch

That's like a cloud of dust and nothing

If he was so hard to bring down like Torain he's have more production in three years

In my opinion Torain is more talented

No offense intened but you have a tendency to respond to posts by answering your own questions rather then the questions posed in the post.

I didn't ask about his ability to rack up yards nor do I know what yards per carry per pass attempt means or do you mean yards per catch?

Either way I was talking about running ability not pass catching.

Also, I never said Hightower was hard to bring down and he actually does have more production then Torain in the past three years.

Anyway my question was why do think Torain is more talented?

I'm not asking about stats, anyone can look up stats.

2010 Torain: 164 atts 742 yds 4.5 avg 5 TDs 54 long

2010 Tim H: 153 atts 736 yds 4.8 avg 5 TDs 80 long

My question was about the physical differences in talent between the 2.

Maybe this will clarify what physical skills make Torain the more talented runner?

[addicted]

No offense intened but you have a tendency to respond to posts by answering your own questions rather then the questions posed in the post.

I didn't ask about his ability to rack up yards nor do I know what yards per carry per pass attempt means or do you mean yards per catch?

Either way I was talking about running ability not pass catching.

No offense taken but to me they are the same

Any RB in the NFL could break off a few big runs if the defense collapses

To me it's overblowing the situation simply pointing at 4.8 yard per carry and ignoring his entire body of work

The truth is what TeddyKGB said here:

"And most of all the guy is a TD Vulture when it comes to the redzone - which our redzone efficiency here the last decade has been near abysmal."

This is the exciting part about him being on our team now. Not since forever maybe dating back 20 years do I remember us having a RB that if you put the ball in the redzone and handed it off do I think we would have a TD. He is a TD vulture on the goal line.

The reason I mentioned his pass catching ability is to show that it's not a matter of simply getting the ball in his hands like you have with Torain.

With the football in his hands as a pass catcher which is vital to being a productive 3rd down RB he's not done so hot.

2010 - 42 targets, 21 receptions, 136 yards, 6.5 per average, 0 TD's

2009 - 80 targets, 63 receptions, 428 yards, 6.8 per average, 0 TD's

2008 - 49 targets, 33 receptions, 230 yards, 7.0 per average, 0 TD's

If you look at the other RB's who are thrown too at least 25 times Hightowers near the end of the list as for production.

As a comparison:

Ryan Torain 2010 - 26 targets, 18 receptions, 125 yards, 6.9 average, 2 TD's

Not much difference there with the following exceptions:

1. This was Torains first time getting expirence as a pass catching RB in this league

2. Torain in his limited chances was the better producer over Hightower

To me they are different RB's with Hightowers best advantage to improve this team on short yardage.

I seen too many comments here on the forum about Hightowers ability to block at a high level (I proved that false yet you can make a case that he had bad QB's to protect and you can say he is expirenced but I can't say he's very good at that)

I seen too many comments here on the forum about Hightowers ability to catch passes at a high level (I proved that false, lots of chances not much to show for it)

I seen too many comments he was going to be the better starting RB over Torain. His value on our team will be to take the hits like Portis used to do, gain the tough 3rd down yardage and goal line TD's we desperately need, but not in my opinion as a primary feature RB

And I'll say it again because no one else is off the high of us getting a new shinny toy

Hightower is a free agent next season. We may have gotten him as a one year loaner.

To me giving up a draft pick for a one year possible loaner is not the move to make as a rebuilding team.

Its too high of a risk. We had a need at RB but cash is king in the offseason.

We should have signed a FA and kept the pick

And that isn't anything against the man personally. I wish him only the best

[darrelgreenie]

No offense taken but to me they are the same

Any RB in the NFL could break off a few big runs if the defense collapses

To me it's overblowing the situation simply pointing at 4.8 yard per carry and ignoring his entire body of work

The truth is what TeddyKGB said here:

"And most of all the guy is a TD Vulture when it comes to the redzone - which our redzone efficiency here the last decade has been near abysmal."

This is the exciting part about him being on our team now. Not since forever maybe dating back 20 years do I remember us having a RB that if you put the ball in the redzone and handed it off do I think we would have a TD. He is a TD vulture on the goal line.

The reason I mentioned his pass catching ability is to show that it's not a matter of simply getting the ball in his hands like you have with Torain.

With the football in his hands as a pass catcher which is vital to being a productive 3rd down RB he's not done so hot.

2010 - 42 targets, 21 receptions, 136 yards, 6.5 per average, 0 TD's

2009 - 80 targets, 63 receptions, 428 yards, 6.8 per average, 0 TD's

2008 - 49 targets, 33 receptions, 230 yards, 7.0 per average, 0 TD's

If you look at the other RB's who are thrown too at least 25 times Hightowers near the end of the list as for production.

As a comparison:

Ryan Torain 2010 - 26 targets, 18 receptions, 125 yards, 6.9 average, 2 TD's

Not much difference there with the following exceptions:

1. This was Torains first time getting expirence as a pass catching RB in this league

2. Torain in his limited chances was the better producer over Hightower

To me they are different RB's with Hightowers best advantage to improve this team on short yardage.

I seen too many comments here on the forum about Hightowers ability to block at a high level (I proved that false yet you can make a case that he had bad QB's to protect and you can say he is expirenced but I can't say he's very good at that)

I seen too many comments here on the forum about Hightowers ability to catch passes at a high level (I proved that false, lots of chances not much to show for it)

I seen too many comments he was going to be the better starting RB over Torain. His value on our team will be to take the hits like Portis used to do, gain the tough 3rd down yardage and goal line TD's we desperately need, but not in my opinion as a primary feature RB

And I'll say it again because no one else is off the high of us getting a new shinny toy

Hightower is a free agent next season. We may have gotten him as a one year loaner.

To me giving up a draft pick for a one year possible loaner is not the move to make as a rebuilding team.

Its too high of a risk. We had a need at RB but cash is king in the offseason.

We should have signed a FA and kept the pick

And that isn't anything against the man personally. I wish him only the best

Um okay...

No offense intened but you have a tendency to respond to posts by answering your own questions rather then the questions posed in the post.

I didn't ask about his ability to rack up yards nor do I know what yards per carry per pass attempt means or do you mean yards per catch?

Either way I was talking about running ability not pass catching.

Also, I never said Hightower was hard to bring down and he actually does have more production then Torain in the past three years.

Anyway my question was why do think Torain is more talented?

I'm not asking about stats, anyone can look up stats.

2010 Torain: 164 atts 742 yds 4.5 avg 5 TDs 54 long

2010 Tim H: 153 atts 736 yds 4.8 avg 5 TDs 80 long

My question was about the physical differences in talent between the 2.

Maybe this will clarify what physical skills make Torain the more talented runner?

[TeddyKGB]

addicted,

I'd like to see what his pass-stats vs. CP for instance when it comes to completion % and catchable balls. I agree with you that I think some people are over-embellishing his role as a receiver out of the backfielda little bit. I just keep getting the feeling from the games I've seen him play that 60% of the passes he gets thrown his way are those "oh crap I'm being sacked lemme dump this ball off to this RB 3 yards away from me while he's got a defender in his face for a -1yard loss" plays. I could be wrong, I just don't think we are getting the whole tale of the tape.

[addicted]

Um okay...

No offense intened but you have a tendency to respond to posts by answering your own questions rather then the questions posed in the post.

I didn't ask about his ability to rack up yards nor do I know what yards per carry per pass attempt means or do you mean yards per catch?

Either way I was talking about running ability not pass catching.

Funny I can't have a conversation with you intelligently it seems

Its a shame because you want to talk to me

So DG since you want to play dumb with me what happens after a RB catches the football?

Does he just stand there waiting to get hit?

Come on man if your going to argue then please bring something to the table otherwise I'd have more fun talking to the wall.

Take some time to do some research and compare Tim Hightower to other NFL running backs

See how he was used in his last team

See how he ranks up there

Then make your own case.

The NFL is all about opportunities and production.

Hightowers had a grip of opportunities.

He's not done much of anything of note with them.

Torains done more with less

That's just the way it is sometimes.

That's also something that separates these men

Last year Torain played in only 10 games, he had 3 of them with over 100 yards

Hightower for his career has only 4 games over 100 yards, but he did have two of them last year. He also played in all 16 games last season

So while you want to stare at that magical 4.8 average he's done much less with his opportunities then Torain has

[darrelgreenie]

Funny I can't have a conversation with you intelligently it seems

Its a shame because you want to talk to me

So DG since you want to play dumb with me what happens after a RB catches the football?

Does he just stand there waiting to get hit?

Come on man if your going to argue then please bring something to the table otherwise I'd have more fun talking to the wall.

Take some time to do some research and compare Tim Hightower to other NFL running backs

See how he was used in his last team

See how he ranks up there

Then make your own case.

The NFL is all about opportunities and production.

Hightowers had a grip of opportunities.

He's not done much of anything of note with them.

Torains done more with less

That's just the way it is sometimes.

That's also something that separates these men

Last year Torain played in only 10 games, he had 3 of them with over 100 yards

Hightower for his career has only 4 games over 100 yards, but he did have two of them last year. He also played in all 16 games last season

So while you want to stare at that magical 4.8 average he's done much less with his opportunities then Torain has

Maybe the 3rd times the charm:

Um okay...

No offense intened but you have a tendency to respond to posts by answering your own questions rather then the questions posed in the post.

I didn't ask about his ability to rack up yards nor do I know what yards per carry per pass attempt means or do you mean yards per catch?

Either way I was talking about running ability not pass catching.

Also, I never said Hightower was hard to bring down and he actually does have more production then Torain in the past three years.

Anyway my question was why do think Torain is more talented?

I'm not asking about stats, anyone can look up stats.

2010 Torain: 164 atts 742 yds 4.5 avg 5 TDs 54 long

2010 Tim H: 153 atts 736 yds 4.8 avg 5 TDs 80 long

My question was about the physical differences in talent between the 2.

Maybe this will clarify what physical skills make Torain the more talented runner?

[grego]

I seen

I seen

I seen

man, thats a pet peeve. still, you bring up some interesting points.

[addicted]

Maybe the 3rd times the charm:

Why are you bothering with this line of questions?

One guy played in 16 games, the other in 10

The guy who played in 6 less games had similar numbers

If stats mean nothing then why are you posting them?

Also, I never said Hightower was hard to bring down and he actually does have more production then Torain in the past three years.

Hightower does because he played in 2008 and 2009

In his one season of extended playing time he did just as well as a man who played 6 more games

Opportunities equals production with Torain

Hightower not so much and that's why AZ went in another direction

I'm not asking about stats, anyone can look up stats.

2010 Torain: 164 atts 742 yds 4.5 avg 5 TDs 54 long

2010 Tim H: 153 atts 736 yds 4.8 avg 5 TDs 80 long

My question was about the physical differences in talent between the 2.

Maybe this will clarify what physical skills make Torain the more talented runner? [/color][/b]

Torain is the bigger stronger quicker running back, his only knock is his tendency to get hurt

[darrelgreenie]

Torain is the bigger stronger quicker running back, his only knock is his tendency to get hurt

I agree that Torain is the bigger back.

But, I think Hightower has better vision, better ability to cut/juke, more willingness to make a hard cut, more quickness, more breakaway speed.

I guess will see over the course of training camp and this season.

[addicted]

addicted,

I'd like to see what his pass-stats vs. CP for instance when it comes to completion % and catchable balls. I agree with you that I think some people are over-embellishing his role as a receiver out of the backfielda little bit. I just keep getting the feeling from the games I've seen him play that 60% of the passes he gets thrown his way are those "oh crap I'm being sacked lemme dump this ball off to this RB 3 yards away from me while he's got a defender in his face for a -1yard loss" plays. I could be wrong, I just don't think we are getting the whole tale of the tape.

Your question would require extensive research but could be answered, but times running out on me tonight so would be another day

Was looking at this

My complaint about Hightower the pass catcher is never getting over 7.0 yards average per catch in his 3 seasons

Not many RB's are targeted 80 times like he was in 2009, That's WR2 targeting

You have to go back to 2008 to see CP and his ability to catch a pass and convert to yards. That year he had a 7.8 yards per reception average, year before 8.3, best career was 11.0 (going by 25 catches measuring stick)

The good news is that Hightower does have a very good pass catching ability

In his best season as a ball catcher he caught 78.8% of all those passes thrown his way

In fact his percentage of catching a pass has always been very high which may explain his low average per catch (dump offs like you mentioned just not sure)