Adam Carriker - Core member of our defense for the foreseeable future?

[Hitman21ST]

Notice that this poster does not offer a clear-cut opinion on the topic -- which was whether or not Carricker ought to be considered a CORE PLAYER. However, he opposes my opinion. Yet, rather than argue for his position, he writes two full paragraphs amounting to the common logical fallacy known as the Ad Hominem.

Yes. Carriker will be a core member of our defense for the foreseeable future. He will be the leader of the D Line; most experience in the 3-4, smart football player, knows what to do and can do it. While he will not be the heart or brain of the defense, he will definitely be a core member.

[skinny21]

What I said didn't imply that at all. It implies that SOME playmaking is expected from the position. We, in fact, saw some in a couple of late season games.

Interesting to note that he played better in the later games. Wonder if this resulted more from the opponents or comfortability or improved play around him. Seems we got better NT play with Bryant in there late as well. Of course one out of just three games he was up against a 3rd stringer, so that raises a flag. On the flip side to this, perhaps Carriker's play bettered those around him. Thanks for the insight OF.

I wouldn't be totally opposed to bringing in vet NT that can take pressure off rest of the team, but I'm really curious to see what we've got. However, I'm not sure the coaches will have much time to evaluate the current NT position before its too late to make a play for someone like Franklin. They may just pull the trigger.

Anyway, i feel carriker has a good shot at becoming a core player for us, especially with improved play around him. Kerrigan should be an improvement. No idea who'll start at NT or LDE, but we should hopefully have improved depth.

[Hitman21ST]

No idea who'll start at NT or LDE, but we should hopefully have improved depth.

My money's on Jenkins at LDE and Bryant at NT for week 1 (assuming we don't sign a big name NT). Nield could be starting by year's end though. Jenkins will get some play at NT also - think Haloti Ngata

[skinny21]

My money's on Jenkins at LDE and Bryant at NT for week 1 (assuming we don't sign a big name NT). Nield could be starting by year's end though. Jenkins will get some play at NT also - think Haloti Ngata

Yeah, I'm with you. It's funny though how many combinations are possible at those two positions - about 4 guys in each could vie for starting and/or rotating.

[Enter Apotheosis]

It's probably too early to say for sure. Carriker put forth a good effort and was, at the very least, competent and consistent in his role. At the same time he's still a guy who could be viewed simply as a stopgap solution. My gut tells me that he's headed on the same path as Phillip Daniels, not a star or even an ideal full-time starter but he still could constitute a core member of the team because of his character, attitude, and work ethic. He certainly seems like the type of person both Shanahan and Haslett like.

How would any of you evaluate his play last season? To be quite honest, I don't recall hearing his name called throughout the year.

By watching the game attentively. You can never be 100% sure what a guy's job is on any given play as a fan but you can still estimate a player's effectiveness well enough by keeping your eyes open.

As for the people wondering why Carrkier got better later in the season, it's been said that he decided to play a little more aggressively and with less of a mind for gap discipline in an effort to make plays (presumably because his teammates were not up to that point). Those games were a good demonstration of his capabilities even if it's not a style of play we'll see often in this scheme.

[Oldfan]

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I think those responding in this thread need to read the OP's question again carefully.

Post #1...

CB: To this member, Adam Carriker is without question a core member of this defense and a building block.

What is your opinion?

He asks does Carricker qualify as a core player. He doesn't ask, "Does Carricker have the potential to become a core player?" That's a completely different question.

By inference, the following answers are equal to, "No, he is not yet a core player."

bedlam ~ To answer another posters point - I think Carriker has the potential to be a CORE member of the team...

Skinny ~ Anyway, i feel carriker has a good shot at becoming a core player for us, especially with improved play around him.

[SpacePenguin]

No, he's not a core player, and likely won't ever be one.

He's a decent role player who provides some depth though, and probably played the best out of our DL last year. Not saying much there. He'd be a backup on most teams.

That being said, I expect him to start for another year...hopefully after next season he can be depth and thrive in that role.

[RandyHolt]

core players need to make plays to be recognized as such so early in their tenure with a team. It almost seems the front 3 of a 3-4 just dont make plays by design. How many stud plays did Adam make last year....3 or 4? Our front 4 back in our old 4-3 scheme used to make a lot more plays. I think the 3-4 puts a lot of pressure on the OLB's.

Adam's best chance is as a locker room guy to be considered core anytime soon.

[Chump Bailey]

CB, you will almost certainly get the majority of posters agreeing with you since the unrealistic homer crowd rules on this board. However, in the thread I started last November which asked for objective opinions based on a scale of five, KDawg gave Carricker a 2.5, somewhat below average. I, along with four or five other posters, agreed with KDawg's evaluation on him and others

I'm certainly no homer, but in this case I will have to disagree with you and Dawg with your grading of Carriker. It's simply a matter of opinion difference. I'm not questioning yours or Kdawg's knowledge of the game in any way. You guy's know more about the X's and O's then I do by a wide margin. I do think I know a good football player when I see one however. I believe Adam is one and someone we can build around.

---------- Post added July-5th-2011 at 07:20 AM ----------

No, he's not a core player, and likely won't ever be one.

He's a decent role player who provides some depth though, and probably played the best out of our DL last year. Not saying much there. He'd be a backup on most teams.

That being said, I expect him to start for another year...hopefully after next season he can be depth and thrive in that role.

Have to disagree strongly. Adam is more than mere depth IMO. Thanks for your opinion on the matter though.

Adam's best chance is as a locker room guy to be considered core anytime soon.

I don't think we would have initiated a trade, albeit one on a smaller scale, for a player deemed only to be a good locker room type of guy. I think when we address the NT position so that our NT is not getting pushed around as was the case for the majority of last season we will see Adam's name mentioned much more often. 34 DL is a blue collar type of gig in general, but I do think we will see good things from Adam (sacks-tackles for loss) this season.

[Pedro]

Depends on your definition of core player. As it has been described on ES recently (play at a league average for the position and have at least 3 years left) sure he is. He played OK, we just sucked at NT for most of the season. Not sure what people expect an average to decent DE to look like with Kemo/Green at NT and Golston etc at RDE.

When he went to make plays in the last 4 or so games of the season he flashed well. Classic proven core player (the kind you upgrade when every position has the same with back up) IMO.

[SpacePenguin]

Let me clarify.

The role of the DEs in Haslett's scheme is to occupy blockers. Carriker can do this, but he's not going to get much of an chance to shine in this D, either statwise or highlight reel wise.

So he won't be regarded by most people as a core player.

If you mean core player as in "decent enough not to replace this season", then sure. If you mean the top 10 players on a team....I don't think a scheme exists to make Carriker that.

I'd rather be wrong on this, but even if I'm not, we're much better off with him than a higher 5th rounder ;p

[Mahons21]

Let me clarify.

The role of the DEs in Haslett's scheme is to occupy blockers. Carriker can do this, but he's not going to get much of an chance to shine in this D, either statwise or highlight reel wise.

So he won't be regarded by most people as a core player.

Then most people don't know what a core player is and how important they can be to a team.

If you mean core player as in "decent enough not to replace this season", then sure. If you mean the top 10 players on a team....I don't think a scheme exists to make Carriker that.

Silly to have a top 10 qualification to be a core player, and he played much better than descent enough not to replace this season.

I'd rather be wrong on this, but even if I'm not, we're much better off with him than a higher 5th rounder ;p

Him and selvish Capers. We swapped 5th and 7th rd picks, the 7th rd pick allowed us to take Capers.

[Destructis]

It's probably too early to say for sure. Carriker put forth a good effort and was, at the very least, competent and consistent in his role. At the same time he's still a guy who could be viewed simply as a stopgap solution. My gut tells me that he's headed on the same path as Phillip Daniels, not a star or even an ideal full-time starter but he still could constitute a core member of the team because of his character, attitude, and work ethic. He certainly seems like the type of person both Shanahan and Haslett like.

Out of all of the posts in this thread, this is the one I most agree with. In a 3-4, a DE will never be really flashy. He will take on a lot of blocks which will allow the LB's to make more plays. I have been following him on Twitter and he has been going through a rough time with his wife being sick. He really seems like a good guy and I can see him being the PD type. I like his rivalry with PD on lifting and who is the strongest. He appears to be a blue collar type player and I think the Skins need more of them. He will get out there and bust his ass and won't say much. I think he already is a core player and I think Shanny is looking for more players of his type. I don't care much about flash and I am more old school in that regard. Add to that, he is still a young guy and I think that makes him a perfect fit. I will be solidly rooting for him this year.

[skinny21]

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I think those responding in this thread need to read the OP's question again carefully.

Post #1...

He asks does Carricker qualify as a core player. He doesn't ask, "Does Carricker have the potential to become a core player?" That's a completely different question.

By inference, the following answers are equal to, "No, he is not yet a core player."

I, for one thought he asked "what do you think", not "please respond with a yes or no". Perhaps I should have clarified that saying he has the potential means he isn't yet, but I thought that was obvious. I'm a little surprised you felt the need to post this one.

Before you take this the wrong way, let me say I am a fan of your posts. You are clear, to the point, and insightful. We may disagree on some things, but this particular post seemed a bit beneath you. Almost an "Aha! You agree with me but framed it in a way to pretend you don't".

My response was an attempt to say he is not (based purely on last years play of course), but with improvements around him and more comfort in the system he could be. I'll go out on a limb and even say he will be, but he isn't yet.

[Oldfan]

...Before you take this the wrong way, let me say I am a fan of your posts. You are clear, to the point, and insightful. We may disagree on some things, but this particular post seemed a bit beneath you. Almost an "Aha! You agree with me but framed it in a way to pretend you don't"...

You read too much into my words.

[Hitman21ST]

You read too much into my words.

Wow, can you take any criticism at all without getting defensive? Apparently if anyone thinks anything is wrong with your posts, something must be wrong with them...

[Oldfan]

Wow, can you take any criticism at all without getting defensive? Apparently if anyone thinks anything is wrong with your posts, something must be wrong with them...

Listen, Dimwit. The poster took the wrong meaning from what I wrote. Am I not allowed to tell him that without hearing your frickin' opinion on it?

[Reaper 21]

as for carriker hard worker does his job no 3-4 de are all that exciting exept ngata but hes in a different category of good.

[Hitman21ST]

Listen, Dimwit. The poster took the wrong meaning from what I wrote. Am I not allowed to tell him that without hearing your frickin' opinion on it?

Put me on ignore then. But please, before you do that, learn how to take criticism. You have a history of getting overly defensive at any opposing viewpoint or criticism of anything you post, as if we should all just take what you say as gospel.

You say you want to have a "civil discussion," but what you really want is for everyone to come into a thread you start and say "Wow, OF, you're a genius for posting that! I would have never thought of that on my own, and it's obviously so true!" If they don't you resort to calling people "dimwits" or "unrealistic homers" and insulting them and what they post.

Stop coming off as an over-pretentious ass and other posters actually might want to have that "civil discussion"

[Oldfan]

Put me on ignore then. But please, before you do that, learn how to take criticism. You have a history of getting overly defensive at any opposing viewpoint or criticism of anything you post, as if we should all just take what you say as gospel.

You say you want to have a "civil discussion," but what you really want is for everyone to come into a thread you start and say "Wow, OF, you're a genius for posting that! I would have never thought of that on my own, and it's obviously so true!" If they don't you resort to calling people "dimwits" or "unrealistic homers" and insulting them and what they post.

Stop coming off as an over-pretentious ass and other posters actually might want to have that "civil discussion"

Your opinion of me is of no interest. As for your holier-than-thou advice, you can stick that.

I

[skinny21]

You read too much into my words.

Maybe you could clarify then? I'm not sure what else you could have meant, but I try to be openminded.

[Oldfan]

Maybe you could clarify then? I'm not sure what else you could have meant, but I try to be openminded.

I meant only what I said: You and Bedlam had not answered the question posed by the OP. Nothing more. Certainly not, "Aha! You agree with me but framed it in a way to pretend you don't."

[bedlamVR]

I, for one thought he asked "what do you think", not "please respond with a yes or no". Perhaps I should have clarified that saying he has the potential means he isn't yet, but I thought that was obvious. I'm a little surprised you felt the need to post this one.

Before you take this the wrong way, let me say I am a fan of your posts. You are clear, to the point, and insightful. We may disagree on some things, but this particular post seemed a bit beneath you. Almost an "Aha! You agree with me but framed it in a way to pretend you don't".

My response was an attempt to say he is not (based purely on last years play of course), but with improvements around him and more comfort in the system he could be. I'll go out on a limb and even say he will be, but he isn't yet.

Skinny Oldfan takes everything the wrong way . I cannot see how you respect anything he says when he is a pretentious ass most of the time . In terms of Xs and Os yeah he knows some stuff but no more than a bunch of other posters on here and yet they can mostly remain civil instead of recycling this grumpy midnight turtle and pop psychology stitch OF seems to revel in .

To clarify my point is Adam Carriker is not a CORE player yet because the defense and the D line especially has yet to find its identity, and not because I agree with Old Fan that he is a worthless scrub . I suppose you could use a clasification as Adam as a CORE player depending on how you define what is a CORE player . Looking at the line - from last year we are looking at probably 2 new starters coming from either FA or the draft but I can see Carriker being the stable aspect which the line is built around but that is more by default than design .

That said i think Carriker is a fine player - strong against the run and showed play making ability in the last few games and I believe playing a second season in the same system he will continue to get better . Compared to Golsten on the other end it is like night and day . I think Golsten was misscast as a 3-4 DE, he is better as a gap shooting DT ( he is not elite by any means) in a 4-3 system and lacks the game strength to be a space clogger .

[LaRonDontLikeUgly]

There is no question that Carriker is a cornerstone and core member of not just the defense- but the entire FO.

He represents a new attitude and identity for an organization that has been plagued by flashy and selfish bums who under produce and blame others.

It doesn't really matter how any of us view Carriker, because as long he stays healthy and the Shannahan/Haslett regime lasts- Adam will be viewed/treated as a core member of our defense.

[Oldfan]

Bedlam to Skinny ~ Oldfan takes everything the wrong way .

You have it backwards. Skinny and I were dicussing HIS interpretation of something I wrote.

...and not because I agree with Old Fan that he [Carricker] is a worthless scrub

You know that's not true. The truth doesn't matter to you, though. Does it?