Why are the fans not even sitting at the table? The NFL Lockout...

[Commander Adama]

Maybe I am way off the mark, but honestly, the further this lockout goes on without any clear signs of being resolved, I find myself getting more and more upset, and the season ticket holders do not even have a say in the matter.

If this thing is not resolved by the time there was supposed to be OTA's, practices, etc. I would be angry. Yes, the NFL has agreed to refund the season tickets of any games missed, but for the games that we are paying for, are they really up to par with the quality of product that the NFL should be delivering? They would virtually have no practice time...no time to come together and get a chance to become that much better as teams, improving the games we watch as a whole. Instead, we are relegated to watching from afar the owners and players, fight over the money we will be giving them as consumers. That makes no sense to me. The fans should have a seat at these discussions, to make sure our interests are represented.

I know some will say, after things are worked out, and after a season, people will not be talking about this and carrying on like it never happened, but that is not the point. I think the mediation should be televised. Why? Accountability of providing us services up to par to what people expect. Other services are regulated. Why not America's favorite sport? When people are arguing about billions of dollars just like it was $1000 to the average person, there should be some accountability to us as season ticket holders.

I am aware a lot will say "If you don't like it, stop watching" or some other type of rationalism, but honestly I grew up watching football. It is a part of my life, whether that is good or bad, it is. Imagine our society without any baseball, football, hockey, etc.

Which is why I am saying, we should be made aware of everything going on, and have a seat at the table, rather than waiting for what they want to present us with.

Just my two cents. And if this was already talked about, I apologize I could not find it and please merge with that discussion.

[SWFLSkins]

Apparently the guy footing the bill in all this is not being invited to the table.

[JPCreativelab]

seriously though, what does a fan have to offer other than "you guys are babies, just work this out so i have something other than yard work to do on sundays!"

granted in a rare situation some fan might blurt out something that makes both sides go "hmmmm" and he is the savoir of the NFL season, but i doubt that would happen, it would just make it more messy.

[angel2]

Maybe I am way off the mark, but honestly, the further this lockout goes on without any clear signs of being resolved, I find myself getting more and more upset, and the season ticket holders do not even have a say in the matter.

If this thing is not resolved by the time there was supposed to be OTA's, practices, etc. I would be angry. Yes, the NFL has agreed to refund the season tickets of any games missed, but for the games that we are paying for, are they really up to par with the quality of product that the NFL should be delivering? They would virtually have no practice time...no time to come together and get a chance to become that much better as teams, improving the games we watch as a whole. Instead, we are relegated to watching from afar the owners and players, fight over the money we will be giving them as consumers. That makes no sense to me. The fans should have a seat at these discussions, to make sure our interests are represented.

I know some will say, after things are worked out, and after a season, people will not be talking about this and carrying on like it never happened, but that is not the point. I think the mediation should be televised. Why? Accountability of providing us services up to par to what people expect. Other services are regulated. Why not America's favorite sport? When people are arguing about billions of dollars just like it was $1000 to the average person, there should be some accountability to us as season ticket holders.

I am aware a lot will say "If you don't like it, stop watching" or some other type of rationalism, but honestly I grew up watching football. It is a part of my life, whether that is good or bad, it is. Imagine our society without any baseball, football, hockey, etc.

Which is why I am saying, we should be made aware of everything going on, and have a seat at the table, rather than waiting for what they want to present us with.

Just my two cents. And if this was already talked about, I apologize I could not find it and please merge with that discussion.

I think you are offering a valid point and you should be taken seriously as a disenchanted ticket holder/fan who is upset with the negotiating up to this point. Could we take this further and include those that subscribe to NFL Sunday Ticket?

[SoCalSkinsFan1975]

I am simply tired of the whole thing. I just want football back. Although I usually feel the same way every off-season. Am I missing something though, because most people seem to be supporting the players and I actually am coming down on the side of the owners. From what I have read, the owners are trying to even out the revenue sharing over a period of years with the players still receiving a larger cut than the owners. I have also read that the players want a percentage rather than a hard cap so the cap would go up when revenue goes up, yet their is no conceding less money when revenues are down. How is this fair in anyone's mind? If their is less revenue for whatever reason, the owners and the players should both get a proportionate amount. In the corporate world, if the company generates less revenue, the company as a whole must implement cutbacks. With this economy, this is happening all over the country. Why should an NFL franchise be different? My wife is a high school math teacher and she has had to take a 5% pay CUT the last two years. I realize we are light years apart talking about our finances and the players, but the owners are responsible for building the stadiums (to some degree), keeping the lights on in that stadium, paying all the staff and employees that are needed to make the stadium and team function along with a myriad of other operational cost's... and oh yes, the players salaries! The fact that the players are crying about trying to keep almost 60% of the total revenue is completely absurd! That is just my 2 cents... discuss!

[Dirt]

Just because we're the one delivering the money, doesn't mean we should decide who gets more of it. The money is, literally, out of our hands at that point.

It's ridiculous at this point, but we shouldn't act like we deserve a 'seat'. Most fans wouldn't understand what's going on anyway. We saw what fans do when given the chance to speak: hoot and holler and chant 'we want football' like jackasses. That is not helpful, and I thought it was dumb. No **** we want football, there's pages and pages of legal matters to be taken care of.

Then, the fans would just be split on who's side they're on, and that's an unjust opinion anyway because we don't know any owners, and aren't part of the team or anything. 'Fan involvement' in this is going to be nothing but rednecks hollering, and they will be ignored until this is resolved. As it should be.

[ouvan59]

We are at the table. You can get up and walk away at any time. That is your card. Or you can stamp your feet and hold your breath until you turn blue. Pick one.

[killerbee99]

I am simply tired of the whole thing. I just want football back. Although I usually feel the same way every off-season. Am I missing something though, because most people seem to be supporting the players and I actually am coming down on the side of the owners. From what I have read, the owners are trying to even out the revenue sharing over a period of years with the players still receiving a larger cut than the owners. I have also read that the players want a percentage rather than a hard cap so the cap would go up when revenue goes up, yet their is no conceding less money when revenues are down. How is this fair in anyone's mind? If their is less revenue for whatever reason, the owners and the players should both get a proportionate amount. In the corporate world, if the company generates less revenue, the company as a whole must implement cutbacks. With this economy, this is happening all over the country. Why should an NFL franchise be different? My wife is a high school math teacher and she has had to take a 5% pay CUT the last two years. I realize we are light years apart talking about our finances and the players, but the owners are responsible for building the stadiums (to some degree), keeping the lights on in that stadium, paying all the staff and employees that are needed to make the stadium and team function along with a myriad of other operational cost's... and oh yes, the players salaries! The fact that the players are crying about trying to keep almost 60% of the total revenue is completely absurd! That is just my 2 cents... discuss!

Unofficial poll about lockout from PFT.....http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/05/17/the-latest-labor-dispute-poll/

A lot more people support the owners more than you think.....it's just that the supporters of the players are the most vocal...and the players are the one tweeting all their BS!!

[Vilandil Tasardur]

If the workers at Best Buy unionize and go on strike, do you have a right to demand a seat the negotiation tables just because you buy TVs there? No, you just move and and buy a TV somewhere else if you need one.

If nurses at the local hospital go on strike, you don't get a seat at the negotiation table just because you are a patient. You are free to either wait it out, or go to another hospital.

The NFL and the players are having a labor dispute. You are free to sit tight and wait it out, or you are free to watch Basketball, Hockey, Baseball, Tennis, or any other sport currently in season. You are also free to watch Arena football. Moreover, you probably aren't a lawyer and don't know **** about the legal aspect here. You as the consumer have can choose whether they are still worth your money, but you CANNOT demand a spot at the table just because you happen to buy their product.

And for those that are "so tired" of "all this." This is what football was like before free agency. There were a few trades, and a few random rookie camps that don't really mean much anyways have been missed, but we haven't missed anything vital besides free agency. Back in the hey day we would have just sat around and waited for training camp in July, kind of like right now.

[jflow78]

I understand your point, but it doesn't work like that in any form of labor relations. When the actor's guild goes on strike, I don't get to put in my 2Cents, just because I watch and buy a ton of movies. Same with any product you buy, you bought it, you don't run it.

Your seat at the table is the decision to buy or not to buy.

---------- Post added May-17th-2011 at 07:15 PM ----------

Unofficial poll about lockout from PFT.....http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/05/17/the-latest-labor-dispute-poll/

A lot more people support the owners more than you think.....it's just that the supporters of the players are the most vocal...and the players are the one tweeting all their BS!!

I am one of those Owner supporters (though it's pretty close to supporting no one), the players come and go, the Owners are the ones that will always be there keeping the league going. The mentality that the players have (get everything we can before we're out) would destroy the league if the Owners took that stance. Too bad we're not like Japan where everyone is willing to be loyal and do what's best for the company (at least Japanese corporations used to be like that).

[phishisthegreatstuff]

hahah is this guy joking?

[SoCalSkinsFan1975]

Unofficial poll about lockout from PFT.....http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/05/17/the-latest-labor-dispute-poll/

A lot more people support the owners more than you think.....it's just that the supporters of the players are the most vocal...and the players are the one tweeting all their BS!!

Wow... that was a real eye opener. I guess you are right about them being more vocal. I also cringe every time I see D. Smith speak. He seems to ooze arrogance. I just don't like him.

[Commander Adama]

Hahaha okay I guess I was way off base.

[DRSmith]

Unofficial poll about lockout from PFT.....http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/05/17/the-latest-labor-dispute-poll/

A lot more people support the owners more than you think.....it's just that the supporters of the players are the most vocal...and the players are the one tweeting all their BS!!

I wonder how many people understand it was the owners that opted out of the contract and locked the players out bringing an end to football?

It is also the owners that voted to preven fans from buying a team so there can be no more Green Bays

---------- Post added May-18th-2011 at 10:24 AM ----------

Hahaha okay I guess I was way off base.

People have another option, first cancel season tickets, and subscription packages.

Box up all NFL gear and mail it to the respective teams with a note stating dissastisfaction with the product.

Next a campaign to boycott all those who advertise on NFL programming

[SoCalSkinsFan1975]

I wonder how many people understand it was the owners that opted out of the contract and locked the players out bringing an end to football?

It is also the owners that voted to preven fans from buying a team so there can be no more Green Bays

I believe this goes to my point. I realize the owners opted out, but if the current deal was on a collision course with unsustainable daily operational cost's why would they continue down that path? If the owners have to close the doors permanently because the business is just not profitable enough to warrant continuing on... everyone loses football... even the players. At some point they must realize their must be a balance!?!?!

[angel2]

I wonder how many people understand it was the owners that opted out of the contract and locked the players out bringing an end to football?

It is also the owners that voted to preven fans from buying a team so there can be no more Green Bays

I believe this goes to my point. I realize the owners opted out, but if the current deal was on a collision course with unsustainable daily operational cost's why would they continue down that path? If the owners have to close the doors permanently because the business is just not profitable enough to warrant continuing on... everyone loses football... even the players. At some point they must realize their must be a balance!?!?!

The owners main option available to them is to sell the team to someone or a group that knows how to benefit financially in today's economic climate. No one twisted the owners arms into signing the previous agreements with the players association. Also, the owners, including our devoted Daniel Snyder, inflated contracts and watering down the product.

I have no sympathy for the owners. They put themselves in this situation because they were willing to compromise their principles by not standing up to the players years ago.

[MattFancy]

We do have a say in this. You want to get the owners' attention, stop buying NFL merchandise during the lockout. Stop watching NFL Network. Stop buying Sunday Ticket. Stop going to the games. That's how the fans can have a say.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

We do have a say in this. You want to get the owners' attention, stop buying NFL merchandise during the lockout. Stop watching NFL Network. Stop buying Sunday Ticket. Stop going to the games. That's how the fans can have a say.

I don't disagree that an individual fan can do some or all of those things, but fans as an entity will still be there (just like the players) when the smoke clears. Because of that, I really don't see that type of action having an impact. Obviously, to an individual, it might make them feel better or spend less money. But as a whole, as someone else mentioned, the owners hold all the leverage long term since they are more static than the player and fan populations.

[DRSmith]

I wonder how many people understand it was the owners that opted out of the contract and locked the players out bringing an end to football?

It is also the owners that voted to preven fans from buying a team so there can be no more Green Bays

I believe this goes to my point. I realize the owners opted out, but if the current deal was on a collision course with unsustainable daily operational cost's why would they continue down that path? If the owners have to close the doors permanently because the business is just not profitable enough to warrant continuing on... everyone loses football... even the players. At some point they must realize their must be a balance!?!?!

The owners already got 1 billion off the top then another 40 percent of the rest then add in tax deals they got states and local governments to sign and the money from naming rights on their stadiums.

The players said if you are hurting open the books let us see and we will work from there

[MattFancy]

I don't disagree that an individual fan can do some or all of those things, but fans as an entity will still be there (just like the players) when the smoke clears. Because of that, I really don't see that type of action having an impact. Obviously, to an individual, it might make them feel better or spend less money. But as a whole, as someone else mentioned, the owners hold all the leverage long term since they are more static than the player and fan populations.

I agree with you, but if the fans want to have some impact, the easiest way is to hurt the owners in their pockets. I don't think every single fan will stop buying stuff, but if the majority do, it will have some impact. There's no way the fans would ever be brough to the table, but this might show the owners that they can't just walk all over the fans.

I'm tired of hearing from both sides that they want to do a, b, and c for the fans. Really? Then come to a deal. If the owners want to do something for the fans, lower ticket prices, lower concession prices, lower parking prices, etc. If the players really want to do something for the fans, then give back more to the community during the lockout, sign some autographs or something. But both sides keep saying that are worried about the fans and that's a straight up lie.

[wrecker]

If the workers at Best Buy unionize and go on strike, do you have a right to demand a seat the negotiation tables just because you buy TVs there? No, you just move and and buy a TV somewhere else if you need one.

If nurses at the local hospital go on strike, you don't get a seat at the negotiation table just because you are a patient. You are free to either wait it out, or go to another hospital.

I don't have to pay Best Buy for my next 10 purchases in advance or pay the hospital for my next 10 illnesses in advance.

I don't buy Best Buy or hospital employee's jerseys, hats, coffee cups, key chains, cards, photos, etc... Who have you heard say "I can't wait to get my favorite Geek Squad's Jersey!"

I don't spend hours at the water cooler talking with friends and foes about my hernia operation or the new computer I saw at Best Buy.

NFL Football is a big part of American culture and a large part of many American's past times. It cannot be compared to any other normal buisness practices or labor issues.

[paloosa]

Fans like you and the rest of us can just stop paying these outrageous prices for a bunch of prima donna players and owners that make more than the average fan. They are squabbling over money that was agreed on in the other CBA and now the owners want to recoup money because they say they are losing money. But the owners don't want to show them their books to justify the request. They also want them to play two (2) more games without a pay increase. They also want to implement a rookie wage scale which is the only good thing that the owners have to offer. What do the Players want? From what I have heard is that they just wanted the old CBA to continue as is. So if the owners would just provide the players what they asked for, which is to see the owners books, and negogiate an agreeable settlement, extend the CBA with a modification of a rookie wage scale then the lockout would be over. Fans just want something to watch so they can root for their team, bash the trades and FA signings, and call for the coaches, GM's and Owners "Head-on-a-Silver-Plater" because their team isn't winning again. Instead we fans are speculating on McNabb and Haynesworth's future with the team and many other unfactual claims and rumors that reporters and the main stream media are reporting. So to have an uninformed fans at the table to voice their opinion is not the solution. If fans want to have their voice really heard then stop going to games, paying for season tickets, stop buying their merchandise and stop watching it on TV. I guareentee you that a year of low attendance, mechandise and ticket sales, and low TV ratings they will get the message. But tat will not happen because everyone of us that are complaining of the lockout will be going to games, buying tickets and mechandise, and watching it on TV because we have been doing it for so long.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

I agree with you, but if the fans want to have some impact, the easiest way is to hurt the owners in their pockets. I don't think every single fan will stop buying stuff, but if the majority do, it will have some impact. There's no way the fans would ever be brough to the table, but this might show the owners that they can't just walk all over the fans.

No, I see your theoretical point. It makes sense and is logical, it just would never happen like that in real life. Never will a majority of fans do something in unison.

I'm tired of hearing from both sides that they want to do a, b, and c for the fans. Really? Then come to a deal. If the owners want to do something for the fans, lower ticket prices, lower concession prices, lower parking prices, etc. If the players really want to do something for the fans, then give back more to the community during the lockout, sign some autographs or something. But both sides keep saying that are worried about the fans and that's a straight up lie.

I don't blame you for being frustrated and not believing them. That too is completely justified.

I know that you're not pushing the idea of fans having "a seat at the table" but these threads always amuse me. Fans don't (and shouldn't) have a role in these negotiations.

[SoCalSkinsFan1975]

The owners main option available to them is to sell the team to someone or a group that knows how to benefit financially in today's economic climate. No one twisted the owners arms into signing the previous agreements with the players association. Also, the owners, including our devoted Daniel Snyder, inflated contracts and watering down the product.

I have no sympathy for the owners. They put themselves in this situation because they were willing to compromise their principles by not standing up to the players years ago.

So to your point shouldn't they stand up to them now? If the operating costs are too high it does not matter who owns the team. Again, I believe one of the biggest factors is that when revenue goes up the players want their salaries to go up proportionally as well, yet when revenues are down they are unwilling to have their salaries go down proportionally. They can't have it both ways, it creates an unrealistic and unsustainable environment.

---------- Post added May-18th-2011 at 12:19 PM ----------

The owners already got 1 billion off the top then another 40 percent of the rest then add in tax deals they got states and local governments to sign and the money from naming rights on their stadiums.

The players said if you are hurting open the books let us see and we will work from there

Ok... isn't all this under the umbrella of "revenue" and thus we are back to my original argument? In my eyes the players realize they have a small window to make their money, yet the owners must set themselves and the franchises up to be successful for decades to come. The players are being greedy and trying for a simple money grab.

[angel2]

So to your point shouldn't they stand up to them now? If the operating costs are too high it does not matter who owns the team. Again, I believe one of the biggest factors is that when revenue goes up the players want their salaries to go up proportionally as well, yet when revenues are down they are unwilling to have their salaries go down proportionally. They can't have it both ways, it creates an unrealistic and unsustainable environment.

---------- Post added May-18th-2011 at 12:19 PM ----------

Ok... isn't all this under the umbrella of "revenue" and thus we are back to my original argument? In my eyes the players realize they have a small window to make their money, yet the owners must set themselves and the franchises up to be successful for decades to come. The players are being greedy and trying for a simple money grab.

The owners were relying on a slush fund to help them break the players associations back. Locking out the players serves no intelligent strategy to benefit their respective bank accounts. The owners created this monster that they are complaining about by signing agreements that they knew damn well down the line they were going to challenge these agreements in court. The court route serves no amicable settlement to their dilemma they find themselves in today.

Please, save your passion for other causes and not for some owners who have plotted this course of action for some time now. The players have made the league what it is today. Granted, it is not all peaches and cream, but the players have benefited the owners in positive financial ways beyond the owners expectations. The NFL is a players league and not the other way around.

If they are operating in a deficient then why haven't they documented these facts so that the players association can see these figures and readjust their piece of the pie. Why would the owners want to hide the documentation? Does it really exist? If so, show the players the proof.

It's too late for the owners to stand up to the players association. Again, this is a players league and not a owners league. The players, past and present, are the ones with the battle scares playing a game that most love. The owners have created a monster that they have no solutions to benefit the owners further. So, the owners have to reside to settle on a workable percentage of the product profit and get over it.